Coach Jumps Now Required Until 'A' License

[popsjumper 2]

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As a D, I can't even pay that forward until I get my Coach rating ...

Why do you say that? Of course, you can do that with a D...unless you jump at MH, I guess.

Per USPA it's up to the discretion of the individual dropzone whether to allow D license holders to jump with pre-A license skydivers. I am guessing Mile-Hi is not the only DZ that limits that.

In Section 2-1, E.6 the SIM makes no mention of DZ discretion...

6. Students training for group freefall
a. Student freefall training for group freefall jumps
must be conducted by either A USPA Coach
under the supervision of a USPA Instructor or;
b. USPA D license holders provided there is a minimum ratio of one D license holder to one student
with a maximum of a 4-way.

And even that is waiverable by an S&TA or an Instructor Examiner

Now having said that, yes, the DZ can over-ride that with more stringent rules. Less stringent would take a waiver.

Is there some other place that specifies "DZ discretion"?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[michaelmullins 77]

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Doesn't Mullins give coach jumps for free? I would be a coach but my dz will not let me jump with students for free. I jump with newbies whenever I can because I have a D license, I just can't sign their cards.

West Tennessee Skydiving supplies free coaches to all students on self-supervision who have not yet earned their A License. We even supply free coaches to visiting students who did not train with us.

The student pays no fee to the coach and the DZ pays the cost of the slot for the coach.

Mike Mullins

[NWFlyer 2]

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Is there some other place that specifies "DZ discretion"?

Fair enough, might not have made it into the SIM but I remember it from some USPA communication (newsletter? board meeting notes?) when the decision was originally made.

But you do acknowledge the general point ... it's always up to the individual DZ. If they want to require that until you get your A license you can only jump with AFFIs with 10 years as an AFFI and a minimum of 1,000 AFF jumps, they can do that. Probably not the most practical choice, but it's one the DZ has.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Doesn't Mullins give coach jumps for free? I would be a coach but my dz will not let me jump with students for free. I jump with newbies whenever I can because I have a D license, I just can't sign their cards.

West Tennessee Skydiving supplies free coaches to all students on self-supervision who have not yet earned their A License. We even supply free coaches to visiting students who did not train with us.

The student pays no fee to the coach and the DZ pays the cost of the slot for the coach.

Mike Mullins

That is great Mike. Too bad other DZOs can't see the big picture past the numbers in their check book.

[davelepka 4]

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That is great Mike. Too bad other DZOs can't see the big picture past the numbers in their check book

In all fairness to other DZOs, Mike owns his own fast, high capacity airplane. Not all DZOs are able to give away slots or pay coaches out of their own pockets (or have coaches willing to work for free).

However, none of that excuses the behavior of DZOs who use the coach jumps as a revenue stream. The idea of the coach program was to produce better trained, better preparred A license jumpers, not to bolster the bottom line of the DZ.

At the very least, they could set the standard that coach pay is minimal, and maybe knock a couple bucks off the cost of each slot and a couple off the gear rental. You could save the student an easy $20/jump with these discounts, and all while still making a (small) profit on slots and gear rental, and not making the coach work for free.

Maybe offer coaches one free jump for every 5 coach jumps they make without being paid. Again, save the student big time, and only give up 1/5 the value of a slot at cost to the DZO.

While Mike is certainly setting the gold standard, and deserves to be applauded for that, you cannot expect all DZOs to live up to that standard. There's a lot they can do (and many do), but not everyone can be Mike Mullins.

[Nutz 0]

I understand that Dave and I have not talked to the new owners of the dz about it but the former owner would not let me jump with students for free because he said it was not fair to the other coaches. My most favorite thing to do is jump with newbies because they think I actually know what I am doing. I hope that I impart some knowledge on them as well.

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[chuckbrown 0]

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Thoughts?

I wish the turbine DZ near me did this.

My little Cessna club-owned DZ would pick up LOTS of new students.

Oh yeah, the policy sucks!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Just as a comparison here in Australia you can get your A licence with as little as 15 jumps. No card to sign off just landing accuracy jumps (10 unassisted within 25m of target), packing signed off and also a test of general knowledge to get signed off for A. However once you have your A licence you can only do solos or jump with someone with a coach rating and no learning freefly, belly flying only.

My how things change.

I was the first AFF graduate from Mile-Hi (I had a business trip in the middle which let me do AFF3, 4, 5, and 6 in one weekend at Brown Field which really sped things up) and was on my own to jump with whoever after that apart from being required to jump a rig with an AAD ($25/jump rental) for the next five jumps.

[jrcolo 0]

http://www.skydiveempire.com/ Nuff said

[pyrotech 0]

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according to the DZO it will cost total around $1500 for this new program which is about $400 more where it used to be which was around $1100
**these are rounded numbers to keep it simple and with gear rental
My math:
it used to be:
[(27+25)*16]+(115*2) = 1062
i do not know the math for the new program but just subtract

When I was looking into places to do AFF, I looked into Mile Hi. I was told via email a couple weeks ago that after the AFF jumps, the cost would run about $1500, which brings the total cost to about $3000. Here's a copy/paste of part of the email I got from them:

"After you complete the primary AFF levels you will then start to work toward you’re A license. This will require 3 solo jumps, 12 coach jumps (jumping with a certified coach and completing specific air maneuvers), a canopy course, and an A check out dive. As a whole this runs approximately 1,500 with gear rental included.

After completing all of the above you will have you’re A license, and can start jumping with any other experienced fun jumper you would like. Fun jumps are 27.00 and 25.00 per jump for gear. You can rent gear for as long as you like."

[Ron 7]

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In Section 2-1, E.6 the SIM makes no mention of DZ discretion...

I believe it USED to say that you had to be coach or above, OR a 'D' license with approval from the S&TA.

They changed it a year or so ago, iirc

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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West Tennessee Skydiving supplies free coaches to all students on self-supervision who have not yet earned their A License. We even supply free coaches to visiting students who did not train with us.

Stuff like this makes we wish I was still in Memphis. Then thinking about Memphis makes me glad I moved

But good on ya Mike

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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However, none of that excuses the behavior of DZOs who use the coach jumps as a revenue stream.

We knew this was going to happen. As we try to be more 'professional' and get professional full time instructors we are going to have to find them work and this is going to cost someone.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Coreefdiver 0]

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In Section 2-1, E.6 the SIM makes no mention of DZ discretion...

I believe it USED to say that you had to be coach or above, OR a 'D' license with approval from the S&TA.

They changed it a year or so ago, iirc

I recalled correctly because I had my 2011 SIM in front of me..
here it is word for word:

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6. Students training for group freefall {S}
a. Student freefall training for group freefall jumps
must be conducted by either A USPA Coach
under the supervision of a USPA Instructor or;
b. USPA D license holders provided there is a minimum
ratio of one D license holder to one student
with a maximum of a 4-way.

you can get a FREE .pdf of the 2011 SIM at the USPA website and there is an App in the iphone store (don't know about droid)

DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

[Calvin19 0]

This thread reminds of that thread - "what do you dislike most about skydiving?"

[davelepka 4]

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the former owner would not let me jump with students for free because he said it was not fair to the other coaches. My most favorite thing to do is jump with newbies

Provided that the SOP at the DZ was to pay the coaches for their work, and this was the understanding when jumpers made the investment of time and money to get the rating, in that case it isn't fair for them if you offer the same service at no cost.

However, and this is a point that occurs to me everytime a jumper complains about not being able to jump with newbies without a coach rating, and that point is that jumper don't cease to be newbies when they cross jump 25, or are granted an A licesne. They are still very much newbies, and would benefit greatly from additional coaching/mentoring.

The truth of the matter is, you could probably do more with a fresh A license jumper than one still on student status. While attempting to complete the A license proficiency card, the student to limited to the skills required by the card, and the need to get them signed off. Once a jumper has their licesne, they are free to work toward whatever goal interests them, and the specific skills that will help achieve that goal.

So to all the D license holders who cry 'foul' because they shouldn't need a coach rating to jump with newbies, the news flash is that you don't. You need the rating to jump with student jumpers who are in the process of full-filling the requirements of the USPA, the same body that certifies the coaches, and in that respect, it's logical that coaches be the ones to administer the requirements of the body that certifies them. Beyond the A license, however, these jumpers are still new, and still need just as much coaching and mentoring as ever.

I strongly suspect that many of the complainers have simply had their ego bruised because a kid with 125 jumps can jump with these students, but they cannot.

[artard 0]

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I strongly suspect that many of the complainers have simply had their ego bruised because a kid with 125 jumps can jump with these students, but they cannot.

Do you think that's really relevant to this particular case? I think most of the people outraged by this specific policy care more about how it seems to be purely profit-driven and will probably greatly reduce the number of students that get licensed and is contributing to the overall decline of the fun jumper culture at Mile Hi.

http://www.mixcloud.com/prajna
http://vimeo.com/avidya

[davelepka 4]

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Do you think that's really relevant to this particular case?

Post #55 is relevant to this case, the one you quoted was a reply to another post.

[Ron 7]

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I recalled correctly because I had my 2011 SIM in front of me..
here it is word for word:

OK, that is what is says NOW.... you happen to have a 2008 SIM lying around? THAT is what I am talking about it USED to say something else. (IIRC)

I remember a stink being raised about it before and it was changed... I do not know what year.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerpaul 1]

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I recalled correctly because I had my 2011 SIM in front of me..
here it is word for word:

OK, that is what is says NOW.... you happen to have a 2008 SIM lying around? THAT is what I am talking about it USED to say something else. (IIRC)

I remember a stink being raised about it before and it was changed... I do not know what year.

2008 is as far back as my downloads go.

It was the same then as it is now.

[Coreefdiver 0]

musta been before 2010 then, as this year is the same as last.

DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

[artard 0]

After a PM exchange I realize now I was wrong to accuse this new policy of being "profit-driven" and that definitely is one thing it isn't so I take that back. Sorry for the false accusation. However I still think it's a terrible policy.

http://www.mixcloud.com/prajna
http://vimeo.com/avidya

[Coreefdiver 0]

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After a PM exchange I realize now I was wrong to accuse this new policy of being "profit-driven" and that definitely is one thing it isn't so I take that back. Sorry for the false accusation. However I still think it's a terrible policy.

Please enlighten us

DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

[artard 0]

I saw the numbers (which I haven't gotten permission to re-publish, yet) and the DZO is making FAR less with the new program than he did with the old coach jump structure, even accounting in the increased number of coach jumps that will happen. So I'm convinced that this isn't about profit.

http://www.mixcloud.com/prajna
http://vimeo.com/avidya

[Andy9o8 0]

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I saw the numbers (which I haven't gotten permission to re-publish, yet) and the DZO is making FAR less with the new program than he did with the old coach jump structure, even accounting in the increased number of coach jumps that will happen. So I'm convinced that this isn't about profit.

Fresh air is the best disinfectant. The management of Mile-Hi has been openly petitioned in this thread. If that management, which I presume is aware of this thread, feels its side is not being treated accurately or fairly here, then it needs to make its case to its consuming public, and to do so publicly. Sooner is probably better than later. A PM campaign might not cut it.