Question To Instructors

[GreenLight 5]

Why are tandem customers calle students?

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[theonlyski 3]

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Why are tandem customers calle students?

Because they are supposed to be getting trained as tandem students, to progress to getting a license. That's what the tandem system was designed for, not a fun ride, but a training tool.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[peek 20]

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Why are tandem customers called students?

(I tend to think in terms of "why not?")

It parallels what we call non-licensed people doing other types of jumps, e.g., AFF student, IAD or S/L student. (You can call all of them "customers" of course, if they are paying for a skydive.)

Is your question though, "Why do we bother to call them students when many tandem jumps do not involve training?"

[djmarvin 2]

Given the chance to actually be a student and learn while on a tandem gives everyone a chance to really experience skydiving. With this chance people will be shocked by how many students will continue on with skydiving. Treating them as students gives us a fair chance to help grow the sport. Also if we don't consider them students then the FAA might look at this thrill ride and want to regulate it more.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[JohnRich 4]

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Why are tandem customers calle students?

What do you think they should be called?

[FanOfFalling 0]

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What do you think they should be called?

Ballast?

[feuergnom 22]

depending on the mood of the TI and the passengers behaviour it's anything between punter, consumer-terrorist, fun-junkie, complete wast of time, asshat, dead meat cargo or student. hope that helps

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[piisfish 135]

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Why are tandem customers calle students?

What do you think they should be called?

passengers (in most cases)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[gregpso 1]

CASH COWS

I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

[popsjumper 2]

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Why are tandem customers calle students?

What do you think they should be called?

Frank...or Suzie....or Hey! You!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[matthewcline 0]

Sad to see, that here, a majority are thinking they are just cash cows.

Even the Student Harness for a SIGMA system says "Student" (in an abbreviation, I know).

Treat them as a Student as it should be and we will see more stay in the sport. Some are gonna just check the bucket list and move on, but that treatment as a Student has turned a few from one timers to life timers!

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[WatchYourStep 0]

Matt-

Do Sigma harnesses have a place for a drogue release or ripcord?

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

[matthewcline 0]

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Matt-

Do Sigma harnesses have a place for a drogue release or ripcord?

The Students rip cord/drogue release is permanently affixed to the Instructor's right leg strap near the front to mimic the Students hand position for a BOC.

And that is exactly how Bill explained it location and purpose when sitting in his office with him several years ago.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Andy9o8 0]

Even if, hypothetically, it's a no-advance-instruction jump that will probably be a once-off, it's still reasonable to call them students. If nothing else, a first tandem jump will begin the process of overcoming fear and sensory overload and acclimating them to a totally foreign environment - and that is certainly one of the many goals of student skydiver training.

[GreenLight 5]

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Why are tandem customers calle students?

What do you think they should be called?

Passengers...

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[sacex250 0]

Considering that tandem jumps are a part of the ISP and the jumps count towards an A-license, why shouldn't they be called students?

It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

[kimemerson 7]

Letting them identify themselves as students sets them up to believe they are considered as much. Calling someone to their face, "my student" as opposed to "my passenger" changes - or could - their perspective. It places them in a light that suggests we care about them as other than cash cows. It's perspective over truth if the truth is just that they are viewed as cash cows and nothing more. The perspective that they are students is probably a better way to build retention and a return to the sport. I mean, how many people take up bungee jumping after one trip to Great Adventure, Six Flags or some Water Park, or whatever it is? They are clearly just big kid amusement ride passengers there. We are a legit Association engaged in a real sport which is recognized by the FAI & the FAA. Showing the newbies that they are considered students has a better shot at keeping them and helping our sport than calling them anything less can do.

Considering them students vs. passengers also informs the TIs attitude toward them. If you treat them as students they may respond as students and may consider furthering their education. If you consider them passengers it can be reflected in their not coming back. The choice is ours to make. If we ask why we are not able to retain students then a little self-reflection might reveal a certain disregard for the source.

[popsjumper 2]

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Considering them students vs. passengers also informs the TIs attitude toward them. If you treat them as students they may respond as students and may consider furthering their education. If you consider them passengers it can be reflected in their not coming back. The choice is ours to make. If we ask why we are not able to retain students then a little self-reflection might reveal a certain disregard for the source.

Exactly. And that's the bottom line.

Let's not call them Tandem Instructors. call them tandem drivers instead. Same difference. If you ain't teachin' you don't deserve the "instructor" moniker.

Telling them to arch is not teaching.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jackwallace 3]

Should be calling them luggage.

U only make 2 jumps: the first one for some weird reason and the last one that you lived through. The rest are just filler.
scr 316

[kimemerson 7]

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Considering them students vs. passengers also informs the TIs attitude toward them. If you treat them as students they may respond as students and may consider furthering their education. If you consider them passengers it can be reflected in their not coming back. The choice is ours to make. If we ask why we are not able to retain students then a little self-reflection might reveal a certain disregard for the source.

Exactly. And that's the bottom line.

Let's not call them Tandem Instructors. call them tandem drivers instead. Same difference. If you ain't teachin' you don't deserve the "instructor" moniker.

Telling them to arch is not teaching.

At the Ranch the first tandem is the joy ride. The next two are intended to be instructional and the TIs are expected to teach. It's the dz and the program they use that either does or doesn't make use of the tandem as an instructional vehicle. If there's no intention to teach, say at the known "tandem factories" where they might even discourage fun jumpers, then, fine, they're paying customers on the 10 ticket ride. But if the intent is to instruct and they do indeed learn and the TIs are teaching, then what would you suggest we call them then if not students? Whether we call them students or passengers will depend on what the goal is and how the tandem is employed. Calling them baggage, luggage, meat or anything that doesn't reflect either paying customers or students is largely cynical and to some degree self centered and disrespectful. Like none of us was ever a beginner with stupid-ass questions and a head full of confusion and misunderstanding. Calling them anything even borderline derisive is sort of a denial of one's own beginnings and could be just the sort of thing a fat head would say. I don't know, is it some sort of attitude that says "I'm cooler than you because of what I do and you don't"?

Telling them to arch isn't teaching unless you teach them to arch. Telling isn't teaching. Teaching is. So if a TI teaches, why can't he/she be thought of as a teacher? Seems too simple to me.

[popsjumper 2]

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[ So if a TI teaches, why can't he/she be thought of as a teacher? Seems too simple to me.

I can't tell if we are agreeing or what.
I was being somewhat sarcastic.
If you are saying that only "teaching" them to arch qualifies one to be called an "instructor", I would disagree. There's much, much more to it than that.

I don't know that I would call a carnival ride operator a teacher even when he shows me how to lower the bar on the carriage.

I'm just disappointed that the tandem approach has become so, so often little more than....a carnival ride. But in the big scheme of things....WooooHoooo! our fun jumps get subsidized and jobs are created!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kimemerson 7]

We might be agreeing. All I mean is that a tandem can be used as a teaching tool. But it has to be done properly to insure tat real, skydive instruction is happening. Tandem skydiving doesn't have to be nothing but a joy ride. It depends on how the DZ chooses to put it to use. That said, the TI then has to actually teach. With all that in place, it then follows that it's safe to refer to the people in front as students.

I'm also saying that just the language we experienced skydiver use, even in humor, to describe those people in front can make a difference in their experience. And that by calling them anything that doesn't show some level of respect for them, fist as humans and second as people genuinely interested in checking out our sport, we are debasing ourselves regardless of whether the passenger/student ever hears it. Calling them somewhat or fully derisive names such as baggage, luggage or meat, to my eyes, shows contempt for those people and a genuine lack of professionalism. And frankly, I have no respect for anyone who does use term such as those.

As for the "passenger" vs. "student" issue I just feel that by seeing them only as passengers misses an opportunity to have a student. Calling them passengers also reveals an unwillingness to be active in turning someone on to the thing we love and instead assumes they are the source of a paycheck and little else. Of course that attitude is also evident when we consider that far too many TIs seem to never really get into sport jumping anymore and have allowed their work to take over their being active in a sport. They're so content with a paycheck that their rigs collect cobwebs.

[Pubwoof 0]

The truth is that they're both passengers and students, however you slice it. Customers of giant tandem mills will still learn something, even if it is little more than how to arch, what it's like to exit, or just how fast it feels out there. And, unless we give the "front seater" access to chicken handles and reachable toggles, they're ultimately still just a passenger too. Plain and simple. What's the point of this whole debate? Really? This misses the point entirely.

If we're really interested in growing the sport, it means selling the first jump course. Or, so it would seem to me. If it is true, we should be thinking of tandem customers as prospects instead of worrying about the whole passenger-vs-student distraction. That first tandem shouldn't be regarded as a ride or a lesson, but rather a sales pitch. They need to learn that their ride/lesson up front can never compare to the things they can experience as a licensed skydiver in the air or in the lifestyle.

I'm still surprised how often "being a skydiver" seems to be an entirely new concept to my 1st-time tandem customers, who too often think of us as glorified roller coasters. If you want someone to show up for your FJC, what they need to learn on that first tandem is how fun this is to do, who we are as skydivers, and why they should want to be one too. If they don't learn those things, who gives a damn whether they've been briefed on altitude awareness before they never return again? Bowling is a wonderful sport, right? Same thing when a new skydiver is born on the first tandem. Twenty-five jumps (or more) later, who in the hell cares whether our new brother/sister learned about holding areas on that first jump or in the classroom before their second one?

The glass isn't always half-full OR half-empty. Sometimes, the glass is just too damn big.

[rehmwa 2]

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depending on the mood of the TI and the passengers behaviour it's anything between punter, consumer-terrorist, fun-junkie, complete wast of time, asshat, dead meat cargo or student. hope that helps

I think it's the best comment so far

Tandems are the core of any business - we should find a term that create the best market response. If the term 'student' tends to pull them in better, then great - ditto on 'passenger' - ditto on 'meatbag'. Whatever brings in the business is the best term.

as for a 'label' affecting instructor attitudes - I don't know any TM's that are that weak minded.

I don't consider the label to be worth one bit relative to actual experience - I consider the treatment to be relative to the experience. So arguing that calling them 'student' affects the 'TM's attitude' toward the student is bull - the TM chooses how they interact without such amazingly subtle mental/psychological manipulation like labels....

you can't fix it with words - call a TM an "instructor" while he still makes stupid jokes, swears, smokes right up to loading the plane, smells of BO, makes lewd advances to the young women, jokes about the dangerous parts, etc etc etc, and you won't retain that "student"

people spend way too much time arguing semantics and way less time just finding the the best ways to do the job - if we remain professional and respectful, the labels usually take care of themselves

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[diablopilot 2]

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We might be agreeing. All I mean is that a tandem can be used as a teaching tool. But it has to be done properly to insure tat real, skydive instruction is happening. Tandem skydiving doesn't have to be nothing but a joy ride. It depends on how the DZ chooses to put it to use. That said, the TI then has to actually teach. With all that in place, it then follows that it's safe to refer to the people in front as students.

I'm also saying that just the language we experienced skydiver use, even in humor, to describe those people in front can make a difference in their experience. And that by calling them anything that doesn't show some level of respect for them, fist as humans and second as people genuinely interested in checking out our sport, we are debasing ourselves regardless of whether the passenger/student ever hears it. Calling them somewhat or fully derisive names such as baggage, luggage or meat, to my eyes, shows contempt for those people and a genuine lack of professionalism. And frankly, I have no respect for anyone who does use term such as those.

As for the "passenger" vs. "student" issue I just feel that by seeing them only as passengers misses an opportunity to have a student. Calling them passengers also reveals an unwillingness to be active in turning someone on to the thing we love and instead assumes they are the source of a paycheck and little else. Of course that attitude is also evident when we consider that far too many TIs seem to never really get into sport jumping anymore and have allowed their work to take over their being active in a sport. They're so content with a paycheck that their rigs collect cobwebs.

+1

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.