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mjosparky

Dying under a good canopy.

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In 2008 30 jumpers died in the US – 11 of the 30 died under a good canopy, 37%.

In 2009 16 jumpers died in the US - 7 of the 16 died under a good canopy, 44%.

In 2010 21 jumpers died in the US - 13 of the 21 died under a good canopy, 62%.

In 2011 if deaths under good canopies continue at the present rate there will no problem breaking last year’s record. Getting better every year.

Sparky

Good canopy = Anytime the jumper had deployed a good canopy and still died.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Thru better freefal taining and aid of aad less and less people are gonna die due to low pull or no pull.
Soon it be close to 100 percent of fatality will result from death under good canopy.
If you eliminate no pull or low pull scenario
How else skydiver are gonna injure/kill themselves???.

If we want to bring down percentage of death under good canopy, we need to stop selling aad??????
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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I don't know how to reply to this Sparky.

I'm having a discussion in another thread about having consequences for dangerous actions and getting a lot of push-back from what appears to be the entitlement generation attitude of "talk to me how I want you to or I won't listen to the message".

I wonder how much of your post reflects that attitude.
I don't know but I could certainly see how it could.

I find it hard to understand how education has slacked off so much that people are nowadays getting as far into the sport as they are and still not knowing what they are doing. I can maybe see how education about HP flying hasn't kept up with the progression of HP canopies, though. And no, I'm not pointing fingers solely at HP pilots and their gear.

I can, at this point, only attribute the trend to more radical canopies, attitude and ego.
-Radical canopies can explain some of it.
-Bad/neglectful attitude can explain some of it
-Look at Me! certainly explains some of it.

Combine all three and you have an accident looking for a place to happen.
Bad combination, IMHO.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Combine all three and you have an accident looking for a place to happen.
Bad combination, IMHO.



Here is a quote from Skratch Garrison that nails part of it.

Sparky

Quote

We are now teaching people how to do Freefall before they know how to make a Parachute Jump.

That's like teaching people how to scuba dive before they know how to swim


My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Post: In 2008 30 jumpers died in the US – 11 of the 30 died under a good canopy, 37%.

In 2009 16 jumpers died in the US - 7 of the 16 died under a good canopy, 44%.

In 2010 21 jumpers died in the US - 13 of the 21 died under a good canopy, 62%.

In 2011 if deaths under good canopies continue at the present rate there will no problem breaking last year’s record. Getting better every year.

Sparky

Good canopy = Anytime the jumper had deployed a good canopy and still died.



Be interesting to see a world wide stat, because its happening everywhere.

Such a stupid and pointless way to die.....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Statistics always have different ways to look at it. I could use the same figures and say that from 2008 to 2009 the overall fatality rate went down 46.7% (from 30 to 16) and the fatality rate for jumpers under a good canopy went down 36.4% (from 11 to 7). All else being equal (i.e. roughly the same amount of jumps performed in 2008 and 2009) this is a good trend.

(the exact opposite conclusion can be said using 2009-2010 figures: 31.3% increase in overall fatalities and 46.2% increase for jumpers under a good canopy whereas looking at 2008 vs. 2010 would show a positive overall trend)

if in 2012, 5 out 5 fatalities come from jumpers under a good canopy will this be a good or a bad trend?

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since there is so much low-timers bashing in this sort of threads, maybe we shouldnt allow making more than 500-1000 jumps; because the majority of those that die under a good canopy seem be what you would call (very) experienced skydivers.. :|

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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I find it hard to understand how education has slacked off so much that people are nowadays getting as far into the sport as they are and still not knowing what they are doing.



That's easy. Since the coaches program has been put in place most people on the DZ expect the knowledge to come from a coach instead of all of the experienced jumpers on the DZ. Most of the coaches got their rating to get their jumps paid for and have no business teaching anyone anything. Couple that with the self centered/it's not my job attitude of most people today and, Whala,huge gap in the educational process.

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Sparky, people are gonna die every year in skydiving from something.
When we were younger men it was almost always "reserve line stretch at impact." People would look up and try to shake those big ole 220s open until they saw the horizon come into their peripheral and when they reached for their cutaway handle it was too late. Every couple of years someone would die from a water or tree landing and it was quiet an oddity when someone died after getting a canopy open.
I used to tell kids back then that if they had a slow opening they needed to look at the ground and their altimeter rather than up. Many of them would look at me as if I were a space alien, the same look I get today if I talk to a kid about his canopy choice.
Swoopers are here to stay and we can't close the barn door on that one. The good ones are an absolute gas to watch. I don't get their mindset, but I love watching what they do.
But many of those will be staff members who will swoop after exiting at altitude, not on a low pass. They will stay up late at night and then make 10 jumps a day in the heat of summer. That swoop at the end of the jump is their reward and sometimes they will make it even if all factors are screaming ABORT!
Many will be sweet kids who made gear choices highly experienced jumpers begged them not to make. It always breaks my heart to see one those bust themselves up.
I've bought into a lot of activities with increased risk in this sport, but I've never bought into someone taking me out due to foolhardy behavior.
As it is now, I have a dz one hour from my house and another two hours from my house that have modern procedures in place for separating traffic. In my part of the country that is a very fortunate thing to have good dzs that close
In the sport now, we have a minority of jumpers controlling the dialogue on an important issue. How many really believe they can safely crank it through crowded skies and how many believe its acceptable to risk taking me out so they can have their fun I just don't know. Obviously there are too many of each.
Overall in the industry - and there will be glowing exceptions - I don't expect to see much improvement in education. I don't expect to see some drop zones clamp down except for a short period of time after an accident.
I am 52 now and down to 100 jumps a year or less. I have had my 30 years of fun. It's a tipping point now for me. I accepted overloaded airplanes and a lot of other things but I don't accept the idea of getting taken out by a fool. I may have a few years left or I may be one incident away from quitting. It's very geographical for me - I am not getting on a plane to go somewhere to jump out of one.
Thanks to Sparky and all those who fight the good fight. See you in the sky or maybe on the porch.

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+1

It is down right scarey to see some of the coaches. Some can barely fall flat and stable....others fly terrible patterns. Can someone with <500 jumps be a great coach YES but there are a lot of folks who have that rating that are clueless
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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I am really new to the sport, and this is just a question. Do you think high performance landings have caused these numbers to increase. With the push of more people getting into "swooping" do you think you see less experienced jumpers pushing the envelope faster to get smaller shoots faster and preform the more aggressive landings. Just a question on what people think.

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Speaking as someone who has been in the sport since before the high performance landing, the answer is a very emphatic yes.

In the 1970's, fatalities with an open canopy usually were because of drowning or electrocution, with the occasional "bad landing". And it was in the 0-2/year level, back when there were more fatalities.

Open-canopy fatalities now are either due to swoops gone wrong at the ground (person prangs themselves; sad, but hopefully they understand the consequences), and collisions between open canopies. There are a number of reasons for collisions between open canopies, including high-performance landings that cause loss of view of where you're going, people just not paying attention, and probably target fixation as well. Not to mention the occasional drowning, electrocution, or bad landing.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Wendy (and other old-schoolers) - do you think some of the increase is also due to the fact that in today's skydiving world, there are more dropzones that have bigger planes (and sometimes more than one larger plane) than 20-30 years ago? I'm curious how much the increase in average traffic in the pattern has influenced the likelihood of open canopy incidents. Seems it would definitely influence the likelihood of a canopy collision, but might also have a marginal influence on single-canopy incidents as you now add "navigating high traffic" to the contributing factors that could lead someone to wind up making a turn too close to the ground.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I find it hard to understand how education has slacked off so much that people are nowadays getting as far into the sport as they are and still not knowing what they are doing.



That's easy. Since the coaches program has been put in place most people on the DZ expect the knowledge to come from a coach instead of all of the experienced jumpers on the DZ. Most of the coaches got their rating to get their jumps paid for and have no business teaching anyone anything. Couple that with the self centered/it's not my job attitude of most people today and, Whala,huge gap in the educational process.



I dont' think education is the problem. There are more canopy courses and information out there now then there was 15 years ago when I started. People just don't apply what they learn. They think their way is the better way and don't care what someone with 2000+ and 10+ years in the sport has to say.

The problem is, like POP touched on, the entitlement generation. They think its just fine to downsize and fly like idiots cause they paid for the jump just like you did. The don't care if they fly their own special pattern and screw over others trying to land safely or spiral down over the top of the LZ or many of the other stupid things the entitlement generation feels they are entitled to do.

j
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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I think you're getting your demographics wrong.

It is the higher jump number pilots that are involved in a lot of these incidents.

However, I do agree with the statement that education alone is not the answer - it must be coupled with enforcement.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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(this is not in reply to any one particular - I just hit reply on one of the posts)

I've been reading about all these canopy related issues for years and I have mixed emotions on how to handle them. All I can say is that soon after my son got into the sport (2003) I chose to be proactive in my region of the country.

I first brought Scott Miller to our DZ to conduct a sold out canopy course. Both my son and I attended. This was the third course/seminar I had attended and have since been to many more.

Scott spent two nights at my place and a 1 1/2 hour drive each way to the DZ during which time I picked his brain until it was bleeding. I know this because when he woke the next morning his eyes were blood shot (how else could that have happened?).

He did not have his course in written form so my son and I spent the oncoming winter writing our own
curriculum. This was before USPA came out with one.

I have since conducted a canopy course every year at our DZ and have brought in other coaches such as Scot Roberts and Brian McNeeney. My courses are always open to anyone, whether from our dz or not.

This year at Safety Day (for obvious reasons) we spent the majority of our time talking about canopy related deaths, and how each one may have been prevented. We talked alot about how people from Cessna DZs go to bigger DZs or boogies with bigger planes and how they can avoid becoming a victim of a canopy collision or (worse) causing one.

All of my courses have been sold out and even though I try to put a limit on the number of attendees I always allow the extra one or two in because my mind immediately thinks: "what if you keep this person out and they get hurt under canopy......"

I always talk about - no, actually preach about - situational awareness and how we tend to lose our awareness the closer we get to terra firma. I have drills prepared to improve the attendee's awareness. I also teach what I call a CAT maneuver (Collision Avoidance Turn) to be performed and practiced immediately after opening (every opening).

These are just a couple of things I do in my course.

I like to think because I'm so involved in bringing canopy education to our area that newer jumpers seek out my advice on their canopy choices. It doesn't just happen over night. It takes time to earn their trust and respect and sometimes they don't listen anyway.

I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm the greatest canopy coach or even one of the greats. But due to feedback from people who have attended one of my courses I know that what I am doing is making a difference.

Sometimes people still get hurt due to a bad choice but at least I know I'm doing what I can. Are you?


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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[pontificate]
I'm sure that contributes; I've made the vast majority of my jumps at Otter DZ's, but it used to be far more common for there to be several passes for the various loads.

Just off the top of my head (i.e. I have NO statistical or any other backing for any of these thoughts)

The one-pass-fits-all probably contributes a little to get-back-itis; of course, so does everyone's fear of landing off. It used to be common when everyone had rounds, or even round reserves. You just accepted it.

The crowding may have some to do with collisions, but looking back at most of them, there were some that were two fairly newbie-types running into each other (both at Spaceland and at Eloy) where crowding had nothing to do with it. The big turns in traffic probably have more to do with it -- if there are fewer people in the air, the big-sky theory helps. Obviously not enough, or Pat and Chris would still be walking around [:/].

The big turn and very fast canopies are the technology game-changers. They're what means widely varying speeds in the same air at the same time, and when one vehicle is dodging around the others because it's so much faster, eventually one of the slow guys isn't going to be as predictable as the faster guy needs him to be.

Personally, I don't believe big turns belong in mixed loads, and speed-induced landings of any sort probably need to have their own pathway. But both the fast-canopy pilots, and the barge-drivers, have to all be educated about what goes where. It can't be something that you have to ask about, and I'd be even happier if it were marked on the ground or on a map.

Everyone gets mad at granny driving 35 on the freeway; it's the place for going fast. Everyone gets mad at the asshole driving 60 through a school zone. It's where children are around. At the DZ, we have all those people, and the boundaries where they can do what they do are not well defined. And they can't be as well-defined in 4 dimensions as they can be in (effectively) 1 1/2 (unless you're playing bumper cars, nearly everyone is going the same general direction).
[/pontificate]

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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The first time I looked at this post I thought "damn it's too long."

Then I went and wrote a longer one.

People -- you should read the post this points to -- not mine, skydivesq's. It's about being proactive.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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" .... Couple that with the self centered/it's not my job attitude of most people today and, Whala,huge gap in the educational process.

"

..........................................................................
Hey!
I resemble that remark!
My last boss liked to increase my workload (rigging, ground school, radio, tandems, PFF, driving trucks, etc.) while slowly decreasing my pay (without the courtesy of telling me) and wondered why some jobs never got done?????

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>Do you think high performance landings have caused these numbers to increase.

Partly. A bigger factor (related to HP landings) is that people are in general jumping smaller canopies. They are faster, leaving less time for reactions - but skydiver's reaction times have not increased. A bad turn in a pattern that ten years ago would have resulted in being shouted at under canopy is now a nearly instant collision (and all too often, resulting death.)

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>Do you think high performance landings have caused these numbers to increase.

Partly. A bigger factor (related to HP landings) is that people are in general jumping smaller canopies. They are faster, leaving less time for reactions - but skydiver's reaction times have not increased. A bad turn in a pattern that ten years ago would have resulted in being shouted at under canopy is now a nearly instant collision (and all too often, resulting death.)



Hell Just froze over......I agree 100% with Billvon :D You cannot educate human capabillites out of the equation. Humans make mistakes and these tiny canopies do not allow for mistakes. YOU have to be on 100% of the time. The canopy will wait patiently for you to screw up. It is ground hungry and the minute you give it an inch it is taking you and possibly others in for a dirt nap

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

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>Do you think high performance landings have caused these numbers to increase.

Partly. A bigger factor (related to HP landings) is that people are in general jumping smaller canopies. They are faster, leaving less time for reactions - but skydiver's reaction times have not increased. A bad turn in a pattern that ten years ago would have resulted in being shouted at under canopy is now a nearly instant collision (and all too often, resulting death.)



Very well stated.

My old 252 (from the 70's) sank like a brick. It did not have much forward speed. My Stiletto 135 on the other hand, is a rocket ship by comparison. However, there are pleanty of canopies out there that are way faster. I think the difference is the performance and sheer numbers of fast canopies in the sky today. Which means simply that... We cannot play by yesterday's rules. as always IMHO
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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I just want to throw out something that I haven't heard mentioned and may or may not be applicable to the issue. Mixed discipline loads.

Let me use an extreme example to illustrate what I mean. Take a load that has two ten ways. One group is Belly and the other is freeflying. The belly group is flying canopies in the range of 150-210 with lighter wing loadings(.8-1.4). The freefly group is flying canopies in the range of 90-120 with heavier wing loadings (1.6-2.0). The freefly group gives plenty of separation, but they open just a tad after the belly jumpers and at the same altitude. It's highly likely that the freeflyiers will overtake the belly fliers and if the timing is bad it will be near the landing area.

This may or may not be valid to the issue, but I thought I would throw it out there.

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(this is not in reply to any one particular - I just hit reply on one of the posts)

I've been reading about all these canopy related issues for years and I have mixed emotions on how to handle them. All I can say is that soon after my son got into the sport (2003) I chose to be proactive in my region of the country.

I first brought Scott Miller to our DZ to conduct a sold out canopy course. Both my son and I attended. This was the third course/seminar I had attended and have since been to many more.

Scott spent two nights at my place and a 1 1/2 hour drive each way to the DZ during which time I picked his brain until it was bleeding. I know this because when he woke the next morning his eyes were blood shot (how else could that have happened?).

He did not have his course in written form so my son and I spent the oncoming winter writing our own
curriculum. This was before USPA came out with one.

I have since conducted a canopy course every year at our DZ and have brought in other coaches such as Scot Roberts and Brian McNeeney. My courses are always open to anyone, whether from our dz or not.

This year at Safety Day (for obvious reasons) we spent the majority of our time talking about canopy related deaths, and how each one may have been prevented. We talked alot about how people from Cessna DZs go to bigger DZs or boogies with bigger planes and how they can avoid becoming a victim of a canopy collision or (worse) causing one.

All of my courses have been sold out and even though I try to put a limit on the number of attendees I always allow the extra one or two in because my mind immediately thinks: "what if you keep this person out and they get hurt under canopy......"

I always talk about - no, actually preach about - situational awareness and how we tend to lose our awareness the closer we get to terra firma. I have drills prepared to improve the attendee's awareness. I also teach what I call a CAT maneuver (Collision Avoidance Turn) to be performed and practiced immediately after opening (every opening).

These are just a couple of things I do in my course.

I like to think because I'm so involved in bringing canopy education to our area that newer jumpers seek out my advice on their canopy choices. It doesn't just happen over night. It takes time to earn their trust and respect and sometimes they don't listen anyway.

I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm the greatest canopy coach or even one of the greats. But due to feedback from people who have attended one of my courses I know that what I am doing is making a difference.

Sometimes people still get hurt due to a bad choice but at least I know I'm doing what I can. Are you?


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.



Wonderful post. I always tell jumpers it is actually easier to be part of the solution than part of the problem.

It must be a LOT of work. Thanks for the efforts.B|

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