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mjosparky

Dying under a good canopy.

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Step back and relax. Fly that 135 with care. Learn it and enjoy it. Be careful.



Don't tell him that. That's part of the problem.

We know that statisticly you're most likely to die under an open parachute. We also know that those deaths are spread around pretty evenly between solos and collisions, and HP and non-HP, so there is no one 'magic bullet' we can look to in solving the problem. Anyone not 'toe-ing the line' in terms of canopy control is part of the problem, regardless of who they are or what they fly.

The guy you responded to is flying a HP canopy at 1.5 WL with 250 jumps. Don't tell him to fly with care, because that implies consent. Tell him to stop being an asshole, stop adding to the problem, and get back in the middle of the bell curve and fly something even remotely appropriate to his experience.

Don't suffer the fools lightly. That's how we got here, and continuing to do so is how were going to be stuck here. This is the land of the free, and we tried to be free and easy with this canopy business, but it didn't work out.

We gave it a fair shot. Over the last 20 years, the first 10 could have been looked at as an 'adjustment period'. New canopies, new technologies, let's see if everyone can just figure it out on their own. The old guys need to figure how to transition from F-111, and 'the establishment' needs to figure how to teach the new guys coming into the sport how to deal with these new canopies.

So that's the first 10 years. The last 10 years hasn't been any better, and now it's time to give up on the idea of 'natural selection', and stop being so 'free'. For years, virtually every other country on earth has had strict on-going educational requirements in place, and even stricter limitation on what sizes and types of canopies any one person can jump. Now it's time that we got on board and did the same.

Of course this means that for the most part were in the hands of the 'powers the be' waiting for them to get their shit together and get some structure up in this bitch. God only knows how long that's going to take.

Which brings me to my original point, what we can do on the grassroots level is not telling guys like DocPop to be safe and have a blast. Tell him he's an asshole, and he's most of what's wrong with skydiving. He knows what he's doing is far outside 'the norm', what's his next move outside 'the norm' that he will deciede is OK, and just do it anyway? I don't want to find out, so I'm not going to encourage that type of behavior. Neither should you.



Dave thanks for the post and stating my same thoughts about DocPop. I have just been too nice to post them.

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My main mentor has twice your jump numbers and has seen me fly. Who do you think I am going to pay attention to?



If your “main mentor” told you that you had the skills to go bounce around on a pogo stick in the middle of the freeway would you go do it?

Also, are you going to follow in your “main mentors” footsteps and steer jumpers with 150 jumps to 1.5 loaded Kanata’s?

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My main mentor has twice your jump numbers and has seen me fly. Who do you think I am going to pay attention to?



If your "main mentor" is supporting you with the decision to jump what you jump than he is no friend of yours....
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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Doc, at this point you probably feel like the guy who gets backed into a corner in a dark alley with a dozen big bad asses lookin' to kick yours.

Over the years I've come to realise that people who don't know you aren't likely to take advise from you, unless you're first name is Shannon, Jay, Ian or the like. So I'm not going to try to give you any.

I would just like to point out a couple of observations (maybe some youngsters who have not yet made the choice to fly something like what you have will take heed). I'm not asking nor do I expect you to.

At the start of every one of my canopy courses I tell those in attendance that they have taken the first step to becoming a better and safer canopy pilot. They are seeking out education. I see you agree with this in one of your earlier posts.

I also tell them that just the act of taking my course will not make them any better than they are currently. But instead they have to practise the information and drills on multiples (and even hundreds) of subsequent jumps before the information will actually result in learned responses to replace reactionary (or basic instinct) responses to canopy flight situations.

Regardless of how many courses people take, what makes you a better pilot is "time in toggle" .

Even if a person spent every one of 250 jumps as a H&P from 13,000 feet, their time in toggle just does not add up to jumping a Katana loaded at 1.5. Add to that, the number of actual landings can only add up to the total of 250.

I jump a Katana 120 at 1.66 with over 700 jumps on it and I'm still dialing it in. I also recently made more than a hundred jumps on a Velocity 103 and I am with many others who say the Katana dives harder and more agressivley than the Velo. There is just no room for error. It is not a forgiving canopy. I make more than 300 jumps a year. If I were only making 100 I'd go back to a Stiletto.

I have a close relationship to someone who works for PD. We've talked for hours on this very subject and he (and frankly many of his co-workers) are just baffled at the choices people make about canopies.

I can tell you this. If you were to ask him to demo a Katana and you were honest about your jump numbers, currency and time in sport. There is no way he would let you jump one.

To that I say: "but what does he know?"

To all who are trying to fight the good fight. Keep it up. There are some who are listening.

And remember: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

Sandy Grillet
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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And remember: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
Sandy Grillet



Well said Sandy!

DocPop... Attached is the updated file I developed and posted a long while ago. I've made one major change to it... see if you can figure out what it is. You're an inspiration! ;) (that's not always a good thing)

Everyone else.... enjoy B|
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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Just read this thread from start to finish. Excellent entertainment - reminded me of the 'panic scene' in the movie Airplane where everyone lined up to 'talk' to the woman passenger.

My turn now - sorry cuz, the majority is right and you are wrong. Trust you are jumping with a camera so we can all watch the carnage on YouTube.

Don't let your ambitions get in the way of your abilities. :D

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

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I'm having a discussion in another thread about having consequences for dangerous actions and getting a lot of push-back from what appears to be the entitlement generation attitude of "talk to me how I want you to or I won't listen to the message".



Welcome to the new age of media and wanting to be the coolest cat on the block..

Things are just going to get more and more hardcore as the time goes, you cannot change human nature, get over it :)
"All limits are self imposed." Icarus

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Docpop, nobody is going to seriously listen to anything you say. With 250 jumps, you are a novice. Hope you get the chance to look back at yourself if you make it to 2000 jumps or so, you will see what a fool you are/were.



And just think, 2 days ago he only had 200 jumps. ;)

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I'm having a discussion in another thread about having consequences for dangerous actions and getting a lot of push-back from what appears to be the entitlement generation attitude of "talk to me how I want you to or I won't listen to the message".



Welcome to the new age of media and wanting to be the coolest cat on the block..

Things are just going to get more and more hardcore as the time goes, you cannot change human nature, get over it :)



:D:D[laugh ]Hardcore?!

With pink canopies and a computer in the reserve tray?! :S

They think because they Skydive at all they are hardcore and living on the edge...they ain't. :ph34r:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3745669#3745669 :D;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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:D:D[laugh ]Hardcore?!

With pink canopies and a computer in the reserve tray?! :S

They think because they Skydive at all they are hardcore and living on the edge...they ain't. :ph34r:



+1 ... although, jumping from a plane is jumping from a plane. Today or 35 years ago, it's all good!

I'm a little supprised my previous post got deleted?? But, that's the way of the world. B|
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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:D:D[laugh ]Hardcore?!

With pink canopies and a computer in the reserve tray?! :S

They think because they Skydive at all they are hardcore and living on the edge...they ain't. :ph34r:



+1 ... although, jumping from a plane is jumping from a plane. Today or 35 years ago, it's all good!




But as you know, 30 - 35 years ago there still WERE some real hardcore jumpers around. B|

When todays milk fed watered down version tries to talk the talk it's hilarious. :D










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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What I meant by hardcore was that people will progress at much much higher rates than they used to 20-30 years ago and it's only natural, however some of the old timers are having a hard time grasping that..

Yes there will be fatalities, there has always been and always will be and all these "restrictions" or new "rules" ain't going to make this whole deal any better :)

"All limits are self imposed." Icarus

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>however some of the old timers are having a hard time grasping that..

Yep. And some newbies have a hard time realizing that there are old timers who are more hardcore than they will ever be.



This whole "who is the more hardcore generation" argument is pretty silly IMO. It is not getting us anywhere and the exact definition of "hardcore" is so up for individual interpretation.

Is it really helping us address the point of this thread?
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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>however some of the old timers are having a hard time grasping that..

Yep. And some newbies have a hard time realizing that there are old timers who are more hardcore than they will ever be.



This whole "who is the more hardcore generation" argument is pretty silly IMO. It is not getting us anywhere and the exact definition of "hardcore" is so up for individual interpretation.

Is it really helping us address the point of this thread?



My point too...how good you are in the sport, is open to wide interpretation. ;)


Anyway, went down to my local DZ yesterday and boy-howdy have there been some changes...Separate passes for swoopers, constant announcements as to landing direction, large map explaining everything...the loader asking questions and giving direction, making sure everyone is on the same page.

I understand that someone cut the pattern and landed the wrong way, their day ended early.

The whole atmosphere was different than a few weeks ago...I like the way Spaceland is addressing this.

Time will tell how effective it is, but there wasn't any chaos in the sky yesterday at the busiest dropzone in the state! B|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Is it really helping us address the point of this thread?



The point will eventually get lost in some canopy nazi flamefest anyway..




Goodwin's Law

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches”

"If any poster does mention the Nazis in a discussion thread, Godwin’s Law can be invoked, they instantly lose the argument and the thread can be ended."



You lose.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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What I meant by hardcore was that people will progress at much much higher rates than they used to 20-30 years ago and it's only natural, however some of the old timers are having a hard time grasping that..



Can you explain why that would be true??.

The "old timers" have prolly been involved in areas of progress that you take for granted, but they were the ones blazing the trail. And in a multitude of areas at the same time. They've experienced the pitfalls first hand.

Its why they object strongly to the lemming like behaviour we see today.

They've been there done that long before some of the whizzkids were a sparkle in their fathers eye....

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Yes there will be fatalities, there has always been and always will be and



Doesn't mean they should ever be ignored, especially when they are unnecessary....and open canopy fatalities are for the most part unnecessary.

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all these "restrictions" or new "rules" ain't going to make this whole deal any better



I guarantee a rule restricting the use of HP canopies would see an instant drop in open canopy fatalities...

You might be a bold young skydiver, one day you might be an old skydiver, but its unlikely you'll be an old bold skydiver. Most likely you'll never do the time the oldies have.....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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This whole discussion has such a tedious deja vue look to it. Jeez. If you do a search on "Ted Nelson", you could almost paste in each comment and each reply, word for word. Ted went in, sorry to say. he was proclaiming his "Mad Skilz" right up to the time he dug his own shallow grave in a bad swoop.

I'd never wish the same on anyone. But, as to DocPop, I couldn't care less. His badassery is between himself and the ground. May the better win. Whoever runs his DZ is probably figuring on a bump in Tandem Rides for a couple weeks after the fatality runs in the local paper.

Unless he completely snipes me from behind, I figure I could get away from him. That's really my only concern about his flying. Hey - maybe he will defy the odds and go on to become the next great swooper. Ted didn't, but that's statistics for you. The news always rocks out about the Lotto winner. There's not much of a story covering the zillion who have nothing but a worthless ticket in their pocket. Everyone thinks they are the , "Golden Child". Maybe that's DocPop. If not, somebody will wait till the ambulance leaves (slowly, with no siren), kick the sod back into the crater and get on the next load. Another DGIT passes the final exam.

This has all played out so many times, I'm surprised at the energy some of you have to continue your part in the play.

Kevin Keenan
Florida

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This whole discussion has such a tedious deja vue look to it. Jeez. If you do a search on "Ted Nelson", you could almost paste in each comment and each reply, word for word. Ted went in, sorry to say. he was proclaiming his "Mad Skilz" right up to the time he dug his own shallow grave in a bad swoop.



That's who I was trying to think of the other day. I knew there was a guy who'd gone in on a failed swoop and in the incidents forum someone had linked to some comments he had made a few years before where he talked about his mad skillz. Sad to see knowing the final outcome.Here's the incident thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2346556#2346556

And in the link to the thread Airtwardo poster earlier there's another guy who was pretty outspoken about his rights and everyone leaving him alone to do what he was so good at. Last I checked he was still not jumping after four plus months recovering from an injury. Not sure if he's changed his tune, but the ground definitely bit his ass.

I guess there's always gotta be one advocate of the mad skillz camp...too bad they never seem to hold the position for more than a couple years.[:/]

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This has all played out so many times, I'm surprised at the energy some of you have to continue your part in the play.



Shit I want on the world record crw attempt, I got TWO crw jumps (which is like 250 swoop jumps) shit if Keenan can do it how hard can it be???
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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