Blacklisting skydivers [was: hard impact at nationals]

[Tatetatetate 0]

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If I, as a DZO, thought the guy was going to sue me for my opinion of his performance or attitude, its really simple....YOU, my son, are no longer welcome here. go somewhere else.

Two birds, one stone.
-No idiocy at my DZ
-No lawsuit

The counter point to this though is:

If I thought a DZO was going to stick me on the database and thus effectively get me banned forever for non air related things (politics/hating/sleeping with his daughter etc). Then simply I would never jump at this particular DZ and I would advise EVERYBODY I knew never to jump there again.

Result?

DZO goes bust

or

bends the rules a bit or simply doesn't blacklist people anymore....

You are then back to exactly the same place you started at...

I've heard some horrible stories of some DZs before. a Certain scottish DZ for example (there are only three) has a horrendous reputation. Because of this reputation I will never jump there even if they priced jumps at $8 each.

[Tatetatetate 0]

TBH I think I'm ranting....

Cus maybe it has something to do with justice.... judgeme for what I do NOW, not what I did.

So sure guy can go to another DZ if he's dangerous there then fine ban him or her from there. but if he turns up somewhere else and has modified his behaviour then fine. Let him....

'Course this means you HAVE to let this person jump once or twice to judge him.

BTW I have an interest in this because jump #4 I had a hard landing (flare was too low). that was 50 jumps ago.... jum 5-54 I've learnt a hell of a lot. But is it fair to judge entirely on jump #4?

[skybytch 259]

Yeah, let's make a way for Joe to get back at Bob after Bob slept with Suzy! That's way better than Joe beating Bob up on the dz - Joe could get rid of Bob completely by just lying a bit to USPA. Can we make contributions anonymously too?

[chuckakers 369]

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If I thought a DZO was going to stick me on the database and thus effectively get me banned forever for non air related things (politics/hating/sleeping with his daughter etc). Then simply I would never jump at this particular DZ and I would advise EVERYBODY I knew never to jump there again.

Result?

DZO goes bust

You're assuming everyone would take your advice, which I doubt.

I don't think anyone is talking about an outright ban in anything but the most extreme circumstances, which can and does already happen now. This doesn't have to be an all or none proposition. I think what the database advocates are talking about is more like a forum where opinions about risky behavior could be posted, much the way some DZO's share opinions now via phone or e-mail.

I personally don't think we have to go that far, but the concept of some sort of a more automatic way to communicate about unsafe people does have merit.

I also disagree that it would bring undue liability to the people who post their opinions. They are, after all, just opinions. That's not exactly slander.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Andy9o8 0]

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I also disagree that it would bring undue liability to the people who post their opinions. They are, after all, just opinions. That's not exactly slander.

Long story short, there's far more risk of it being slander than I think you appreciate. There's also far more potential for abuse than I think some people appreciate.

[Ron 7]

Hell, you could use DZ.com.

If someone had created a post in the swooping forum about the guy that pounded in at Spaceland.... Naming him, and explaining why.

Then Every swooper going to the nats and on DZ.com would have seen him.

Heck, post a pic so anyone can avoid him.

Nothing official, but it could still work.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[chuckakers 369]

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Hell, you could use DZ.com.

If someone had created a post in the swooping forum about the guy that pounded in at Spaceland.... Naming him, and explaining why.

Then Every swooper going to the nats and on DZ.com would have seen him.

Heck, post a pic so anyone can avoid him.

Nothing official, but it could still work.

Wouldn't last 5 minutes before a mod would pull it.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Hambone 0]

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DZO’s are running a private business and as such they have the right to refuse service to anyone. There is no need for attorneys to be involved. If in the DZO’s opinion the guy is a problem he has the right to ground him or throw him off the DZ.

Sparky

True...but look how far that got Denny's with the African Americans (still the largest discrimination lawsuit to date, I believe) and other private businesses that have been sued for mega bux. The spectre alone would nail DZO's to the wall.

From a different side...maybe a DZO doesn't like what someone posts on DZ.com, so they take it out on them via this "list."

I agree there is a problem, and in today's world it's a silly one with seemingly simple solutions. But branding folks with a scarlet letter doesn't seem to be the answer.

Ok this is a little off base. This has nothing to do with being discriminatory and in my opinion bringing something like that totally clouds the conversation. Furthermore, let's talk about a solution not what litigation may occur. As we all know in our litigious society that is a constant concern but I don't think that in a conversation about life and death it has a place.

Call it an advisory list, let people know they are on it and why. This will create not only a learning moment but also a wake up call. In my opinion.

Yeah...You need to grow up. -Skymama

[DSE 3]

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Call it an advisory list, let people know they are on it and why. This will create not only a learning moment but also a wake up call. In my opinion.

OK...we'll go that route.
I've read many of your posts on DZ.com, most of them are frivolous, off the mark, and silly; clearly you're incapable of focus and attention to the details related to skydiving.
You've made technical blunders as well, and as a result, you're on "the advisory list" because I, the guy that has 1000 X more skydives than you, has determined that you're not a safe guy.
It's a fine line between reality and perception and may be my personal bias, but then again...that's what discrimination is, isn't it? If I put you on "the list," what recourse do you have?
None.
It's not about litigation. It's about branding people with a huge potential to be terribly unfair. If something is seriously wrong, then there is USPA and a 1.6 in the Governance manual (if the USPA had reason to use it)

Big difference between local DZO grounding someone or banning them, and a "list" where people are branded.

As far as "the problem," I don't think there is an "answer." No matter what obstacles and processes are placed, people will contrive ways around them. The "system" isn't really so broken that we see these kinds of stupid incidents occurring all the time.

[Hambone 0]

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Call it an advisory list, let people know they are on it and why. This will create not only a learning moment but also a wake up call. In my opinion.

OK...we'll go that route.
I've read many of your posts on DZ.com, most of them are frivolous, off the mark, and silly; clearly you're incapable of focus and attention to the details related to skydiving.

If this is the case then you will also no doubt noticed that this is the first time I have posted outside a condolence in 3 or so years. Not sure what this has to do with anything...

[reply/]
You've made technical blunders as well, and as a result, you're on "the advisory list" because I, the guy that has 1000 X more skydives than you, has determined that you're not a safe guy.
It's a fine line between reality and perception and may be my personal bias, but then again...that's what discrimination is, isn't it? If I put you on "the list," what recourse do you have?
None.
It's not about litigation. It's about branding people with a huge potential to be terribly unfair. If something is seriously wrong, then there is USPA and a 1.6 in the Governance manual (if the USPA had reason to use it)

Big difference between local DZO grounding someone or banning them, and a "list" where people are branded.

As far as "the problem," I don't think there is an "answer." No matter what obstacles and processes are placed, people will contrive ways around them. The "system" isn't really so broken that we see these kinds of stupid incidents occurring all the time.

[DSE 3]

It's not an attack, it's a demonstration of how it can (and most likely) work.

We *can* continue to do what we're doing. It works. My counterparts at other DZ's and I talk about students; we talk about who is doing what with which wingsuits. Like the guy who biffed at Spaceland, people know what's going on, for the most part. Is it perfect? Of course not. Is anything?

There is no way to police someone who has a desire to circumvent their peers at their local DZ. The Spaceland incident demonstrates this; the guy had been spoken to by several others. Did it stop him? Obviously not.
People who knew him were there; according to them he (perhaps) got onto a different load so that they wouldn't see/question his actions.

I'm all ears to an answer that doesn't burn a brand onto people. I'm all for an answer that allows for local control. I'm all for an answer that encourages experienced people to speak up. I can't imagine anyone with half a ration of reason supporting the idea of branding people on an internet website. There is no precedent in any activity that suggests this is acceptable. Even potential terrorists get more consideration.

I'm all ears for your solution since you find my solution reprehensible.
Until then, you're on "the list" of dangerous skydivers with whom no one should share the air, simply because "I say so."

[strop45 0]

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I've read many of your posts on DZ.com, most of them are frivolous, off the mark, and silly; clearly you're incapable of focus and attention to the details related to skydiving.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If this is the case then you will also no doubt noticed that this is the first time I have posted outside a condolence in 3 or so years. Not sure what this has to do with anything...

Reread DSE's post, it looks to me like he was giving an example of why a list is a bad idea, not actually attacking you.

I'm with DSE on the problems of a list and the solution seems straightforward to me:

1) Man up (or woman up) and talk to the person face to face about your concerns
2) If this doesn't work, say to them OK, I'll have to take this to the DZO - they are ultimately responsible for safety at this DZ.
3) No action from DZO, decide how important this is to you then either do nothing or find others to agree with you and talk to DZO or stay off DGIT loads or find a new DZ.

Seems simple to me. Stay safe or kia kaha (be strong)

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[virgin-burner 1]

while you feel it a personal attack, DSE only highlighted what the problems were..

see the problem now!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[grimmie 173]

So you want to start a blacklisting of jumpers?
Where do we start?
Can I include some very respected members of our sport that regularly violate DZ canopy flight rules?
Can I blacklist DZO's that run shoddy operations?
Can I blacklist the druggies and boozers that board the plane impaired?
Can I blacklist jumpers that don't know how to pack for themselves?
Can I blacklist jumpers that sell drugs?
Can I blacklist jumpers that have 10,000 jumps and still do incredibly dumb things?
Can I blacklist load organizers that can't follow their own DZ rules?
Can I blacklist pilots that take off downwind and fly a crappy jump run and spot even crappier?
Can we blacklist somebody that doesn't post or lurk on DZ.com?
Once someone is on the list, what do the ever do to get off of the list?

Our sport has some safety issues for sure, but let's not have our own version of the McCarthy Hearings...

[DSE 3]

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So you want to start a blacklisting of jumpers?
Where do we start?
Can I include some very respected members of our sport that regularly violate DZ canopy flight rules?
Can I blacklist DZO's that run shoddy operations?
Can I blacklist the druggies and boozers that board the plane impaired?
Can I blacklist jumpers that don't know how to pack for themselves?
Can I blacklist jumpers that sell drugs?
Can I blacklist jumpers that have 10,000 jumps and still do incredibly dumb things?
Can I blacklist load organizers that can't follow their own DZ rules?
Can I blacklist pilots that take off downwind and fly a crappy jump run and spot even crappier?
Can we blacklist somebody that doesn't post or lurk on DZ.com?
Once someone is on the list, what do the ever do to get off of the list?

Our sport has some safety issues for sure, but let's not have our own version of the McCarthy Hearings...

Who administers the list? That's the other biggie.
Demi Moore isn't into skydiving, AFAIK...

[grimmie 173]

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So you want to start a blacklisting of jumpers?
Where do we start?
Can I include some very respected members of our sport that regularly violate DZ canopy flight rules?
Can I blacklist DZO's that run shoddy operations?
Can I blacklist the druggies and boozers that board the plane impaired?
Can I blacklist jumpers that don't know how to pack for themselves?
Can I blacklist jumpers that sell drugs?
Can I blacklist jumpers that have 10,000 jumps and still do incredibly dumb things?
Can I blacklist load organizers that can't follow their own DZ rules?
Can I blacklist pilots that take off downwind and fly a crappy jump run and spot even crappier?
Can we blacklist somebody that doesn't post or lurk on DZ.com?
Once someone is on the list, what do the ever do to get off of the list?

Our sport has some safety issues for sure, but let's not have our own version of the McCarthy Hearings...

Who administers the list? That's the other biggie.

Well, Bill Dause, of course.

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[Remster 24]

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So you want to start a blacklisting of jumpers?
Where do we start?
Can I include some very respected members of our sport that regularly violate DZ canopy flight rules?
Can I blacklist DZO's that run shoddy operations?
Can I blacklist the druggies and boozers that board the plane impaired?
Can I blacklist jumpers that don't know how to pack for themselves?
Can I blacklist jumpers that sell drugs?
Can I blacklist jumpers that have 10,000 jumps and still do incredibly dumb things?
Can I blacklist load organizers that can't follow their own DZ rules?
Can I blacklist pilots that take off downwind and fly a crappy jump run and spot even crappier?
Can we blacklist somebody that doesn't post or lurk on DZ.com?
Once someone is on the list, what do the ever do to get off of the list?

Our sport has some safety issues for sure, but let's not have our own version of the McCarthy Hearings...

Who administers the list? That's the other biggie.

Well, Bill Dause, of course.

Remster

[virgin-burner 1]

no i dont.. too many issues with that..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[grimmie 173]

Sorry VB, wasn't you, I was just replying in general. My bad

[virgin-burner 1]

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Sorry VB, wasn't you, I was just replying in general. My bad

no problem!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[JohnRich 4]

I'll volunteer the first entry in the blacklist. Print out this poster and and tack it up on the bulletin board at all dropzones immediately. I'm telling ya', some of the things this guy does in the sky are downright dangerous!

[377 20]

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Who administers the list? That's the other biggie.

Well, Bill Dause, of course.

Bill has had a California version of that list in his head for years. If you screwed up real bad at Pope Valley decades ago, he'd likely remember if you tried to jump at Lodi next weekend.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I'll volunteer the first entry in the blacklist. Print out this poster and and tack it up on the bulletin board at all dropzones immediately. I'm telling ya', some of the things this guy does in the sky are downright dangerous!

I hear he actually did relative work with bullets in freefall.
The children - what about them?

[JohnRich 4]

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I'll volunteer the first entry in the blacklist. Print out this poster and and tack it up on the bulletin board at all dropzones immediately. I'm telling ya', some of the things this guy does in the sky are downright dangerous!

I hear he actually did relative work with bullets in freefall.
The children - what about them?

Yeah, that too! He's obviously a radical whacko skydiver that endangers everyone around him, and especially underneath him. No matter what you do, don't hang around on the accuracy pit when he's in the sky - he'll squash you like a bug!

[Airman1270 0]

As a new jumper in the '80's I sought advice after being told not to ask for pin checks. Pissed off some people, got banned from that DZ "for life." (Moriches, Long Island.)

A couple of years later I almost went in while dealing with a VERY hard reserve pull. Scared the DZO, was kicked off that DZ. Was told I was "controversial." (Woodstock CT.)

In both cases I did nothing wrong, yet was blacklisted. Count me among those who think this type of list is a bad idea.

Cheers,
Jon S.