BASE and Jump #s

[JohnRich 4]

Okay, what percentage of base jumps is made from under, say, 1,500' agl, and what percentage above 1,500' agl? It is my impression that the large majority would be the "less than 1,500'" category.

The 3,600' cliff I would certainly consider very high. I don't think that too many base jumpers have ready access to such cliffs. I would consider that an exception rather than the norm.

Feel free to straighten me out if I'm wrong. I'm open to learn. Give me some facts.

I said nothing about base jumping being illegal, as that wasn't relevant to the discussion.

[base283 0]

"Okay, what percentage of BASE jumps is made from under, say, 1,500' agl, and what percentage above 1,500' agl?
It is my impression that the large majority would be the "less than 1,500'" category."

You made the blanket statement, not me. It is your responsibility to back it up. Not mine. Where did you get the impression (less than 1,500'") from if I may ask sir?

"The 3,600' cliff I would certainly consider very high. I don't think that too many BASE jumpers have ready access to such cliffs. I would consider that an exception rather than the norm."

I cant read in my post where I said it was 3600 ft high. "aLZgl" I said.

"Feel free to straighten me out if I'm wrong. I'm open to learn. Give me some facts."

Once again, you made the blanket statement, Not I. You have just stated that it was your impression also. It is your responsibility to give the facts. Not I. I am basically stating that you appear to have no idea and are making things up. This is in response to your blanket statement.

"I said nothing about BASE jumping being illegal, as that wasn't relevant to the discussion."

My apologies for lack of clarity. In my orignal draft I had stated that I wanted to address misconceptions. Then after some editing the lack of clarity snuck in and i didnt catch it.
This is what i said "ALso I would like to state that BASE jumping is just as legal as Skydiving and Bicycling. It is a much more common misconception that it is illegal.".

I didnt mean that your miscons included this one. My editing put it out of context. sorry bout that.

But anyway,
You made this statement "In a BASE jump you're already very close to where you're going to land, and you have very little time to maneuver before touch-down."

I am now asking you to back it up with facts to maintain your your credibilty on this subject in this thread or stand up and be a man say "I have no facts about BASE and the blanket statement that I made."

take care,
space

[JohnRich 4]

You said "3,600'" in your message #25, a follow-up to your "1100 meters" in message #19.
So you said it twice.

My impressions come from hanging around skydiving and base jumpers for three decades.

I didn't claim they were facts, I said they were my impressions. I asked you to provide me yours. I said I was open to learn differently. If I'm wrong, tell me why.

If you base jump from, say a 1,000' tower, it's just plain physics that you're going to land close to the base of the tower. By the time you get a parachute open, and with only a 3:1 glide ratio, you're not going to travel very far.

But apparantly you just want to argue, rather than actually provide information. You apparently disagree, but don't want to offer anything to show your side. Okay, have fun talking to yourself.

[yeyo 1]

---> aLZgl <---

It could be a 300' high jump, with 3600' aLZgl

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[jonmurrell 0]

There's no average, standard jump is BASE. Everyone has different jumping preferences and availability of objects. Each site and jump depend on a multitude of factors and require uniquely configured gear to complete safely. That an exit is XXX' above the LZ doesn't mean much

Here's a prospective jump site in BASE:
The exit sits at 2800' MSL and the LZ at 500' MSL. Upfront that looks like a USPA legal hop and pop. But this is BASE so it must be a 2000' cliff similar to El Cap or wherever, didn't some guys jump that with rounds back in the day just fine? No big deal, right?
Turns out that the exit point is on the side of a mountain and that 2300' of altitude only provides 300' to freefall and open before an untimely impact in a steep hillside forest. Once you've got a functioning canopy, hopefully really quickly, you have to fly on a precise heading down the slope because 5500' (of horizontal distance) away is the only LZ you can feasibly land in without hanging in a tree or breaking yourself. This LZ is the size of a cul-de-sac and is surrounded by the fifty foot trees we've been trying so hard to avoid. If you can average 2.4:1 glide for the whole jump (including your freefall and while flying a huge 7-cell canopy trailing the largest pilot chute you can imagine) you'll make the LZ, but just barely.

That vanilla 1000' tower you mention may not be landable inside the guy radius due to trees or maybe just a big fence - not all that rare. Now you're in the same spot and you need a pretty decent glide to make a clearing or the road, especially if you want to enjoy some freefall.

When's the last time you saw a low hop and pop load spot a mile off? Ever seen a PRO candidate exit 5 miles away from their target on a declared jump from altitude? You'd never see those at a DZ but both are easily within reach. What distance is far away when you can glide 3:1?

This isn't flying, its falling with style.

[champu 1]

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Why shouldn't BASE jumps count to your overall jump #?

BASE jumps are by far more technical (canopy flying)then skydiving as a whole IMO. If you do both jumping very often (current) why shouldn't they both count?

Do a couple thousand of each and both you and anyone you want to jump with won't, for good reason, care anymore.

[OuttaBounZ 0]

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i wish my 100+ base jumps would count for something for my aff that would be cool

No doubt. AFF is hard. :)

Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

[base283 0]

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In a BASE jump you're already very close to where you're going to land, and you have very little time to maneuver before touch-down.

That is what you wrote. I dont see any deviation from a statement between the starting capital letter and the period on the end.

Please tell me how many BASE jumps you have seen or witnessed so I know where to start please.

Also, please reread this statement I made.

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I dont want you to think that I am attacking your credibility. I want to address your misconceptions.

[mjosparky 3]

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Ok so I have asked a number of people and I have got some ok but nothing really good replys to sell me on it...

Why shouldn't BASE jumps count to your overall jump #?

BASE jumps are by far more technical (canopy flying)then skydiving as a whole IMO. If you do both jumping very often (current) why shouldn't they both count?

Simple. If you want to build your skydiving numbers, skydive.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[fastphil 0]

The way I see it, BASE jumps are no indicator that you can ride in an airplane.

[base283 0]

Fill me in. I have no clue what you mean though I am the most experienced on what you post about (on this thread).
Take care,
space

[nikejumper 0]

??? Does BASE jumping make me a better or more knowledgeable plane rider?? No...
Does BASE jumping make me better or more knowledge about landing in a tight LZ, or understanding winds and what they will to me under canopy, better at sinking it in, and/or executing a plan under stress?
Ya, I think so...
The main reason I posted this question was for the issue of a "pro rating" accuracy and jump numbers

My thoughts-
In BASE jumping (my experience about 100 jumps) accuracy (most LZs are very tight) is very important so is understanding the winds and other influences that can affect your canopy ride. Where doing a demo/ having your Pro rating is very similar and you have altitude on your side... Thus, I was thinking that if someone has all this experience in planning, and executing, these things, isn’t it silly to just say the usual crap "BASE and skydiving are not the same"

I know they are different! But BASE teaches you things that are very hard to learn firsthand in skydiving that have a direct correlation to doing demos.
Military round jumps count towards jump numbers and I would go and say that BASE jumping has more in common with skydiving than jumping a round from a C-130 at 1000 ft does?
I know I probably ruffled a few feathers but I'm very interested in what people have to say...

Is it saturday yet?

[robinheid 0]

Interesting thread.

Of course BASE jumps should count in your overall PARACHUTE JUMP numbers because they are parachute jumps.

PERIOD.

Whether they can or should count toward PRO or other USPA ratings is a different question -- you know, sorta like whether tandem pilots get to log their droguefall as freefall time, and whether static line jumps should count toward licenses and ratings.

The comments about mostly BASE v. mostly airplane jumps as a measure of parachuting skill is silly on its face. There are 10,000-tandem-jump wonders who cannot freefly to save their lives; there are world champion CReWdogs who couldn't do RW to save their lives, and there are swoopers who couldn't do CReW or RW to save their lives.

The days of parachutists who could do every sub-discipline at a high level of proficiency are gone, so it is always important to ask someone about their parachute jump breakdown if you don't know them or their skillset in the sub-discipline in which you are about to participate.

One final note, directed mostly at the John Rich-BASE 283 "discussion:" John, I love ya, man, but you sound like a whuffo -- and a USA-centric provincial whuffo at that -- when you discuss "average" BASE jumps and talk about high cliffs not being accessible to most BASE jumpers.

Why don't you check out some youtube vids of proxy fliers doing 2-minute-plus flights down mountains? That's one end of BASE jumping; the other is peeps hucking off the Potato Bridge and various other locations that are even lower. Bottom line here is that in The Land of the Free, the Nazi Park Service prevents jumps from all but a few big cliffs not under its armed occupation. In Europe and Asia, this is not the case, so the "average" BASE jump is much higher and longer.

Then you have landing areas that vary from wide-open spaces to ridiculously tight, obstacle-intensive LZs. As I like to say, accuracy means I can land on the hood of your car. Canopy control means -- no dents.

Some BASE jumps require exceptional accuracy -- you better hit the spot or you're toast. On the other hand, some sites are so gnarly that it doesn't really matter where you land -- but it does matter big-time HOW you land.

BASE 283, please cut John some slack. He obviously has a lot to learn about BASE and seems very willing to do so -- and he does in fact make a stellar point about airplane accuracy v. BASE accuracy: Hitting the beer can from 3,000 feet opening altitude is a much trickier parachute NAVIGATION task than doing it from 200 feet. On the other hand, the BASE accuracy jumper needs to respond lightning-fast to a very complex parachute LANDING problem, which the average demo jumper does not have to do.

John, let me put it to you this way: demo accuracy is like being a long-range shooter, whereas BASE accuracy is more like being a short-range gunfighter. There are crossover skills, but in general, one takes more careful thinking and calculating and the other takes fast analysis and exceptional quick twitch muscles.

Finally, SPORT PARACHUTING encompasses any sporting activity performed with a parachute.

PERIOD.

People who try to insist otherwise remind me of the old Star Trek episode where these two half-white, half-black guys from the same planet were fighting like cats and dogs and Captain Kirk couldn't figure out why to save his life. He even said "You're the same people; what is the problem?"

And they both looked at him incredulously and in unison shouted: "Are you BLIND? We're as different as night and day!"

And Kirk was like "What do you mean? You're both white on one side and black on the other."

And one of them says: "You really ARE blind; I'm white on the right side; HE is white ON THE LEFT SIDE!!!"

Or as the oldsaying goes: to cows, other cows look different. We're all SPORT PARACHUTISTS, and all of sport parachuting's sub-disciplines deserve respect and appreciation, as do the people who participate in one or more of them.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[stayhigh 2]

How is flying something huge f-111 pure rectangular 7 cell loaded at .7 more technical than flying a 7 cell elliptical cross brace loaded at 2.3???

You can give anyone with zero jumps a f-111 loaded at .7 and I'm pretty sure they will survive they don't even have to flair the thing.
You try giving out cross brace loaded at 2.3 with zero jumps and I doubt they will even survive the opening. Poor body position alone will kill the person.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[billvon 2,394]

>How is flying something huge f-111 pure rectangular 7 cell loaded at .7 more
>technical than flying a 7 cell elliptical cross brace loaded at 2.3???

Because in one case you're exiting over a river with poor wind information and landing at night in a 50x50 foot clearing in the trees 3 miles from the nearest road. In the other you are jumping out of an airplane over 100 acres of cut grass and landing in a huge area with a wind sock and excellent EMT access.

There's more to landing a parachute than swooping.

[base283 0]

Hi RH. I have done what you ask of me before you asked but pmwise. I hope you didnt expect any thing less from me. BASE parallels with skateboarding. It was cool. then prohibited, then skateboard parks sprung up.
I tend to disagree with blanket statements which is what JR made.
All blanket statements sux! ;-) We are sorting it out.
Take care,
space

[robinheid 0]

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Hi RH. I have done what you ask of me before you asked but pmwise. I hope you didnt expect any thing less from me. BASE parallels with skateboarding. It was cool. then prohibited, then skateboard parks sprung up.
I tend to disagree with blanket statements which is what JR made.
All blanket statements sux! ;-) We are sorting it out.
Take care,
space

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[OuttaBounZ 0]

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How is flying something huge f-111 pure rectangular 7 cell loaded at .7 more technical than flying a 7 cell elliptical cross brace loaded at 2.3???

You can give anyone with zero jumps a f-111 loaded at .7 and I'm pretty sure they will survive they don't even have to flair the thing.
You try giving out cross brace loaded at 2.3 with zero jumps and I doubt they will even survive the opening. Poor body position alone will kill the person.

There are 176 qualified people that might disagree if they could.

That big, slow, simple rectangle is my scalpel. I guess "technical" is a relative term.

Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

[Martini 0]

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That big, slow, simple rectangle is my scalpel. I guess "technical" is a relative term.

Nice.

I think of both my Troll and my Xaos (on which I'm sadly uncurrent) as being very precise tools.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............