Airman1270 0 #26 October 7, 2011 ... From everything I've been told its irresponsible not to jump with one. Guess that's just the environment of being new to the sport _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ And THIS is the real problem. A generation of newer skydivers who have been brainwashed into believing that jumping w/out an AAD is as dangerous as jumping w/out a reserve. An AAD can save your life. It can also kill you. Let me decide whether I want one, and don't tell me I can't jump w/out an AAD simply because YOU don't feel comfortable doing so. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #27 October 7, 2011 Your AAD is for me and my AAD is for you. Think about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glitch 0 #28 October 7, 2011 QuoteLet me decide whether I want one, and don't tell me I can't jump w/out an AAD simply because YOU don't feel comfortable doing so. Unless your the DZO. After all, it's his/her ass on the line. I've no problems with a dzo making their dz a mandatory AAD dz. I may not like it, but it's their call.Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #29 October 7, 2011 More interesting is what affect would that have on AFF instruction?The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #30 October 7, 2011 Quote More interesting is what affect would that have on AFF instruction? and tandem scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fanya 3 #31 October 7, 2011 I only have an aad incase I become knocked out or incapacitated. I spent my first 400 witbout one and wouldnt hesitate to jump without one again. I still don't turn it in for hop n pops and forget to turn it on here and there. I bought one cause as someone else has said, I'd be pretty pissed at myself if I went in without one and had 1400$ in the bank. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #32 October 7, 2011 QuoteI only have an aad incase I become knocked out or incapacitated. Bet you'll be pissed at your CYPRES if you lose altitude awareness and it saves you anyway.-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fanya 3 #33 October 7, 2011 Quote Quote I only have an aad incase I become knocked out or incapacitated. Bet you'll be pissed at your CYPRES if you lose altitude awareness and it saves you anyway. I have a Vigil, which is besides the point. And if that happens it's probably time to quit skydiving because if you can't follow rule #1 ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #34 October 7, 2011 Will you continue to jump without one, or will you quit skydiving? Quote Since I've never had one, I'll just carry on as usual... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #35 October 7, 2011 I'll skip over the BS AAD-pushing argument. Quote I'm glad to see that only 3 out of 100 people say they would actually quit jumping without one. Those three people it could be argued probably shouldn't be jumping anyway, if that's the only thing keeping them in the sport. A little quick to judge, aren't we? What about the father/mother who promised their spouse/kids never to jump without one? What about the sixteen year old who is allowed to skydive, but only on the condition that they use an AAD? What about the people who finance their jumping doing tandems? The list goes on and on and on and is every bit as ridiculous as your argument Quote And apparently all those people that advocate so heavily in favor of them, are perfectly willing to do without if left no other option at all. Go figure. Fixed it for you. Me, I'd use a 9000 ft. static-line. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 173 #36 October 7, 2011 Put a half hitch in it and take up some slack on a hop n pop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 45 #37 October 7, 2011 I'm glad you take your risk management equation and apply it to everyone. Look, AAD's are a great thing for the sport. You're a fool if you rely on them, but certainly not foolish if you think twice about jumping without one. Some of us have others to think about. My two hands work great for getting a parachute out, until they don't. Nothing wrong with deciding to stay on the ground without an AAD. To tell folks they shouldn't be jumping with one because of that stance is ridiculous.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #38 October 7, 2011 Here's more evidence that lawsuits are a serious problem for AAD manufacturers, from the October "Parachutist" (attached). The referenced poster link: http://cypres-usa.com/AAD_Warning_poster_20110623.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #39 October 7, 2011 Quote Quote More interesting is what affect would that have on AFF instruction? and tandem I don't think whufo tandem passengers know anything about AAD's and don't make their decision to jump based upon that. What makes it easy for them is having that experienced tandem instructor there to do everything for them - that's the big selling point. If you removed the AAD, I don't think it would affect the tandem business much. It might make the tandem instructors more anxious, however. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #40 October 7, 2011 QuoteNothing wrong with deciding to stay on the ground without an AAD. Certainly not. And yet 97% of the people responding to the poll say they would jump anyway. So apparently having an AAD is not a make-or-break deciding factor in jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC1 0 #41 October 7, 2011 QuoteQuoteNothing wrong with deciding to stay on the ground without an AAD. Certainly not. And yet 97% of the people responding to the poll say they would jump anyway. So apparently having an AAD is not a make-or-break deciding factor in jumping. Did you honestly think it was? Virtually all the whuffos who first decide to take up skydiving do so without knowing that things called AADs even exist, let alone what they do. It only when they find out that AADs stack the odds a bit more in favour of surviving your next jump that they decide using one might be a good idea. Which for most people, they are. And no safety-concious, responsible parachuting organisation would knowingly ban a device which is proven to save lives. It just wouldn't happen. If it did, there would be a new parachuting association spring up to take it's place that didn't ban AADs. I'd even do it myself if no one else would. In fact the exact opposite is happening. DZs and some parachuting governing bodies are insisting on AADs for some or even all of the skydivers in their jurisdiction. That leaves law suits and they could be a problem. It's a shame that some people think that suing an AAD manufacturer is a good idea. In this case, suing all the AAD manufacturers out of business could well cost lives. That said, if law suits do get out of hand, I bet we see AAD manufacturers becoming 'uninsured' AAD manufacturers with huge disclaimers willing to close the doors permanently at the first sign of a lawyer. Or simply not selling to countries that have a history of bringing lawsuits. It would be a shame for safety and the good of skydiving in general if that were allowed to happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 173 #42 October 7, 2011 I know a couple of dead tandem masters that are still jumping because of an AAD. Look at DZ tandem ads. Most mention AAD's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #43 October 8, 2011 Basically, the chances of AADs being banned or eliminated from the market is about the same as the entire tandem skydiving industry being shut down. Not gonna happen. Quote It's semantics, but I would phrase that as 'unlikely' to happen, but it IS possible...in both scenarios. In the unlikely event of 1/2 a dozen people going in a few months in a row 'because' of faulty AAD's I think you would see some action to discontinue their use (in the current form). Just as the industry was close to losing the tandem waiver because of dropping a couple students out of the harness...IF that would have continued for any length of time the tandems 'would' have gone away. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Baksteen 84 #44 October 8, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteNothing wrong with deciding to stay on the ground without an AAD. Certainly not. And yet 97% of the people responding to the poll say they would jump anyway. So apparently having an AAD is not a make-or-break deciding factor in jumping. Did you honestly think it was? Virtually all the whuffos who first decide to take up skydiving do so without knowing that things called AADs even exist, let alone what they do. It only when they find out that AADs stack the odds a bit more in favour of surviving your next jump that they decide using one might be a good idea. Which for most people, they are. Besides, as I tried to point out earlier, the poll is too black and white: Quit jumping, or jump without an AAD. Perhaps a better question would be along the lines of: What will you do while your AAD is sent in for maintenance? * Jump without an AAD * Rent an AAD * Stay on the ground until you have your gear back * Other (please explain)"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rwieder 0 #45 October 8, 2011 It won't stop me. I've been jumping in places of late where an AAD wouldn't help you anyhow.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #46 October 8, 2011 Quote It won't stop me. I've been jumping in places of late where an AAD wouldn't help you anyhow. Canada? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #47 October 8, 2011 I jumped before AADs and have no problems jumping after them.... .....well not jumping after them ...... if they are thrown out of a plane, for exapmple... but jumping after they've been banned (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #48 October 8, 2011 Quote I only have an aad incase I become knocked out or incapacitated. I spent my first 400 witbout one and wouldnt hesitate to jump without one again. I still don't turn it in for hop n pops and forget to turn it on here and there. I bought one cause as someone else has said, I'd be pretty pissed at myself if I went in without one and had 1400$ in the bank. Wouldn't you be pissed if you went in on a H & P with your AAD turned off? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #49 October 8, 2011 Quote More interesting is what affect would that have on AFF instruction? We'd certainly have to rewrite some BSR's, wouldn't we? I really don't think we'll ever reach this scenario that John is suggesting. Sure, there's a few problems with AAD's, but those can be worked out. AAD's are too good of a safety device, like seat belts and air bags, to go away. BTW, my first 2500+ jumps were without. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #50 October 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteLet me decide whether I want one, and don't tell me I can't jump w/out an AAD simply because YOU don't feel comfortable doing so. Unless your the DZO. After all, it's his/her ass on the line... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Why? This is THE point here. Why should a DZO's ass be on the line? When did we decide that a business owner is responsible for the safety of his customers? The DZO agrees to provide a safe ride to altitude and a place to land. He never claimed to be able to control the actions of the people who pay him for that ride. Technically, I would agree that the DZO has the "right" to operate his business as he sees fit. If this means manatory AAD use, fine. He's just eliminated a sizeable chunk of potential customers, in addition to helping create a mind-set among newer jumpers that jumping w/out an AAD is a serious breach of ethics & safety. However, this principle applies to all business owners. If a resturant owner decides not to do business with black people, he should have that right simply as a matter of private property rights. Whatever the consequences of such a decision, this should not result in a courtroom appearance. Don't tell me you're only looking out for my safety (by requiring an AAD) while you dig a swoop pond and encourage your customers to jump tiny little mains that will kill them if they drop a toggle on the flare. In nearly 30 years I can count on one hand how often I was in freefall below 2000' and I always knew where I was. The real lesson here is: What ever happened to altitude awareness? Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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Baksteen 84 #44 October 8, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteNothing wrong with deciding to stay on the ground without an AAD. Certainly not. And yet 97% of the people responding to the poll say they would jump anyway. So apparently having an AAD is not a make-or-break deciding factor in jumping. Did you honestly think it was? Virtually all the whuffos who first decide to take up skydiving do so without knowing that things called AADs even exist, let alone what they do. It only when they find out that AADs stack the odds a bit more in favour of surviving your next jump that they decide using one might be a good idea. Which for most people, they are. Besides, as I tried to point out earlier, the poll is too black and white: Quit jumping, or jump without an AAD. Perhaps a better question would be along the lines of: What will you do while your AAD is sent in for maintenance? * Jump without an AAD * Rent an AAD * Stay on the ground until you have your gear back * Other (please explain)"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #45 October 8, 2011 It won't stop me. I've been jumping in places of late where an AAD wouldn't help you anyhow.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #46 October 8, 2011 Quote It won't stop me. I've been jumping in places of late where an AAD wouldn't help you anyhow. Canada? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #47 October 8, 2011 I jumped before AADs and have no problems jumping after them.... .....well not jumping after them ...... if they are thrown out of a plane, for exapmple... but jumping after they've been banned (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #48 October 8, 2011 Quote I only have an aad incase I become knocked out or incapacitated. I spent my first 400 witbout one and wouldnt hesitate to jump without one again. I still don't turn it in for hop n pops and forget to turn it on here and there. I bought one cause as someone else has said, I'd be pretty pissed at myself if I went in without one and had 1400$ in the bank. Wouldn't you be pissed if you went in on a H & P with your AAD turned off? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #49 October 8, 2011 Quote More interesting is what affect would that have on AFF instruction? We'd certainly have to rewrite some BSR's, wouldn't we? I really don't think we'll ever reach this scenario that John is suggesting. Sure, there's a few problems with AAD's, but those can be worked out. AAD's are too good of a safety device, like seat belts and air bags, to go away. BTW, my first 2500+ jumps were without. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #50 October 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteLet me decide whether I want one, and don't tell me I can't jump w/out an AAD simply because YOU don't feel comfortable doing so. Unless your the DZO. After all, it's his/her ass on the line... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Why? This is THE point here. Why should a DZO's ass be on the line? When did we decide that a business owner is responsible for the safety of his customers? The DZO agrees to provide a safe ride to altitude and a place to land. He never claimed to be able to control the actions of the people who pay him for that ride. Technically, I would agree that the DZO has the "right" to operate his business as he sees fit. If this means manatory AAD use, fine. He's just eliminated a sizeable chunk of potential customers, in addition to helping create a mind-set among newer jumpers that jumping w/out an AAD is a serious breach of ethics & safety. However, this principle applies to all business owners. If a resturant owner decides not to do business with black people, he should have that right simply as a matter of private property rights. Whatever the consequences of such a decision, this should not result in a courtroom appearance. Don't tell me you're only looking out for my safety (by requiring an AAD) while you dig a swoop pond and encourage your customers to jump tiny little mains that will kill them if they drop a toggle on the flare. In nearly 30 years I can count on one hand how often I was in freefall below 2000' and I always knew where I was. The real lesson here is: What ever happened to altitude awareness? Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
