Do you swoop (or ever plan to)?

[jrjny 0]

Just wanted to get a sense of how this discipline is distributed across experienced and would be, inexperienced jumpers, such as myself.

Jeff

[topdocker 0]

Quote

Just wanted to get a sense of how this discipline is distributed across experienced and would be, inexperienced jumpers, such as myself.

Jeff

Can you define "swoop" for this context?

Is it at least a 720 over a pond with an RDS and a canopy loaded 2.5:1 or are you talking about a 90 front riser turn and planing out in rear risers on a triathalon?

top

Jump more, post less!

[jrjny 0]

Good clarification - I would say a swoop in this context means that you build speed for your final approach that was not essential to land safely.

Whether a 90 degree turn on a 7 cell lightly loaded canopy or a typical HP canopy loaded at 1.7+. One may lead to the other, etc...

[thrillstalker 0]

one day, a long time from now, i would like to get into it.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[Scrumpot 1]

Ahhh... yet ANOTHER generation of grasshopper's asking the proverbial question: "but isn't the skydive itself just already enough excitement as it is?" ..."I will never want for anything more.

Sure kid(s). Check in with us again (and this post yourself in retrospect) in say 5 or so years. That is, unless too, yer "just passin' through".

BS,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[pyrotech 0]

Quote

Ahhh... yet ANOTHER generation of grasshopper's asking the proverbial question: "but isn't the skydive itself just already enough excitement as it is?" ..."I will never want for anything more.

Sure kid(s). Check in with us again (and this post yourself in retrospect) in say 5 or so years. That is, unless too, yer "just passin' through".

BS,
-Grant

Which post gave you that idea? I guess I'm not that great at reading into things that aren't really there. Maybe that will also come with experience?

As for the OP, I would love to start swooping when I get plenty of experience. Watching people skimming across ponds is just plain exciting to see; I can only imagine what it's like to be the one doing it.

[PiLFy 0]

Good point. I would like to have the option of pulling 90* front riser to help cut through some turbulence when landing. To crank 360*s & 720*s, & swoop in @80MPH, though? Hell no. How many super-experienced jumpers have to die? If instructors w/10K+ jumps under their belts can get killed by one slight miscalculation or surprise? I'd say it would be awfully arrogant & foolhardy for me to think it wouldn't happen to me. I don't care if I one day attain 15K jumps. I will never swoop. It is apparently too easy to get killed that way.

Someone posted something to the effect of: "Sure kid. Come back & tell us that in five years." The rules of logic aren't going to change in five or fifteen years. I personally don't feel the gain is worth the risks. I don't think less of others who do choose to swoop. I simply have no desire to do so myself.

[jrjny 0]

I felt the same way a very short time ago and while I have no concrete plans to attempt any swooping I have moved beyond ruling it out entirely. I don't seek additional risk, however.

Strange how perception changes over periods of time. Maybe that's the highlight of this post.

[Remster 24]

Quote

I would like to have the option of pulling 90* front riser to help cut through some turbulence when landing.

Huh?

Remster

[nigel99 143]

I will never swoop.

2 of the 3 people that I have known who died skydiving were swooping at the time.

The only fatality I have witnessed first hand was swoop gone wrong.

A good friend will never jump again having broken his back swooping.

On top of this I am too slow and clumsy to be going fast near the ground. Rather like the tortoise in the old fable, I would rather plod along and get to the end successfully.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[PiLFy 0]

Jerry(?),
My perception is of highly experienced swoopers dying for one slight miscalculation or surprise. That isn't a perception. It's a fact. It's already happened enough times for me to make that decision. If you don't see the risk? You're already in trouble.

[billvon 2,395]

>Good point. I would like to have the option of pulling 90* front riser to help cut
>through some turbulence when landing.

Do you accelerate to 70mph before speed bumps to "cut through them?" Do pilots accelerate to Vne to "cut through" turbulence?

Distorting your wing to try to make it go faster in turbulence is a very dumb thing to do.

[PiLFy 0]

When there is turbulence in the landing area. I have to fly my dorky light WL chute. Flying the same dorky landing pattern as when a student. I see the more experienced jumpers simply grab a front riser, & bang a 90* turn. They accelerate & swoop in slightly faster for landing. They plane out about twenty feet above the ground. It appears to be a safer way to land when the winds turned wonky during the climb to altitude. Hell, I watched a guy swoop in like that w/a tandem once. To me, that's not really swooping. Swooping is 80+MPH mowing the lawn/pond. Clearer?

[mchamp 1]

Throw me an 84 velo and I'll swoop

I have seen a few people hook in and get seriously injured and understand that if you do swoop its NOT IF you will ever pound in a bit but its WHEN(provided you do it long enough). Its a risk that I'll be willing to accept in the future when I get some additional experience.

I plan on it soon once I have a bit more experience and which I am currently working towards

For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out
http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp

[PiLFy 0]

That's what they've told me they're doing when I've asked. Speed up, & slice through the rough air faster, & w/a more pressurized canopy. I've been told it's a technique to help prevent canopy collapse. I'm not on the verge of having to unlearn something again. Am I? I hate that...

[thrillstalker 0]

listen to the real people where you skydive at, not someone on the internet. you never unlearn, you just gotta learn who to learn from.

edited to add: unless it is billvon (didn't realize you were answering him)

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[billvon 2,395]

>Speed up, & slice through the rough air faster, & w/a more pressurized canopy.

Pilots slow their aircraft down when they fly through turbulence because the faster you go, the higher the forces can climb - and turbulence can damage even metal-winged aircraft. Canopies are, of course, much less rigid.

Canopies are designed to be the most stable when in stabilized full flight. When you take them out of that regime they become less stable - more prone to stall (due to exceeding the positive limits of angle of attack) and more likely to collapse (due to exceeding the zero-lift negative limit.) Thus full flight is generally the best approach to turbulence. Brian Germain recommends keeping very light pressure on the toggles, more so that you can react quickly to any pending collapse than to slow the canopy down.

Also, if you do have a significant collapse near the ground, any additional speed you are carrying will be speed that your bones will have to absorb. That could make the difference between breaking your femur and breaking your femur, pelvis and back.

[DSE 3]

Quote

That's what they've told me they're doing when I've asked. Speed up, & slice through the rough air faster, & w/a more pressurized canopy. I've been told it's a technique to help prevent canopy collapse. I'm not on the verge of having to unlearn something again. Am I? I hate that...

You might want to do a search on here about distorting your wing, brakes, front risers in turbulence. You want to let your canopy fly in most situations.
PD has a good document on this as well.
Are your instructors counseling you to use front risers in turbulence?

[jacketsdb23 45]

Quote

Rather like the tortoise in the old fable, I would rather plod along and get to the end successfully.

No guarantees that will end successfully either.

Swooping is not a death wish. Just like skydiving itself, its risk reward. For every person you name that died swooping, we can name two or three that died not swooping. Some people on here are starting to sound like my whuffo friends when they discuss swooping. I would think skydivers more than most would "get it".

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

Which post gave you that idea?

Maybe the 34 (combined) already responding in one of the categories that they claim they will/would NEVER swoop.

Quote

Maybe that will also come with experience?

Yup. That just might even as well. YMMV

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[PiLFy 0]

(due to exceeding the positive limits of angle of attack)
(due to exceeding the zero-lift negative limit.)

Bill,
You realize I have no idea what those terms mean, right? Are you saying going faster might actually help deflect the wing, & is counter-productive?

[PiLFy 0]

These techniques are still beyond my abilities. It's something I've cataloged for later use.

"Are your instructors counseling you to use front risers in turbulence?"

I'd asked about this technique a number of times during my student progression while watching landings. Yes, instructors told me getting some speed under a higher WL would help slice through the turbulence. The riser turns were done @150-200'. Higher than the turbulence coming off trees, buildings, etc... If it was a misunderstanding. It was misunderstood a few times.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Quote

Which post gave you that idea?

Maybe the 34 (combined) already responding in one of the categories that they claim they will/would NEVER swoop.

Quote

Maybe that will also come with experience?

Yup. That just might even as well. YMMV

Yep. Never say never.

I was never going to downsize below a 170 cuz I had no interest in swooping.

Now I have a pond rig with a Katana 120 and may some day get a Velo 103 or smaller.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[PiLFy 0]

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.
___________________________________________________

I don't think you're crazy. I think you're willing to take risks that I'm not. Nothing more or less than that. I've ridden motorcycles for almost thirty years. I've track time under my belt, as well. I have friends who get a kick out of riding w/o a helmet. I think that's a foolish risk. I think it's riskier than swooping. It's their choice to make though, not mine. That tolerance goes both ways. Most people think all skydivers are out of their minds.

While there are no guarantees in life, period. The odds favor the tortoise over the hare in this case. There's no need to throw Whuffo insults. You enjoy your side of the landing area. We'll enjoy ours. We can still meet @the BBQ.

[billvon 2,395]

>You realize I have no idea what those terms mean, right?

Sorry.

A wing stalls when it exceeds its maximum angle of attack (around 15 degrees.) When that happens, you are no longer flying the wing; it's descending by drag alone. In the olden timey days round parachutes flew this way all the time. Large accuracy canopies are often flown close to stall (or in stall) but are big enough to still slow you enough to survive a landing.

However, modern canopies cannot generate enough drag to land you safely when stalled. You can test this by stalling your canopy up high and noting your descent rate; it will get pretty high. (It's also somewhat dangerous to do on smaller canopies so make sure you talk to a canopy instructor before trying it.)

Turbulence is just moving air. Moving air can increase your apparent airspeed, decrease it, or change the apparent angle. If it comes from below you and changes the apparent angle so much that the maximum angle of attack is exceeded, the canopy will stall and drop you.

The opposite can happen if the turbulent mass of air is coming from _above_ you. If you decrease the apparent angle via air approaching the canopy from above, lift will decrease. Once you get to an angle that gives you zero lift, any further decrease will cause negative lift. Canopy lines have zero strength in compression, so the canopy will collapse and start moving towards you as you drop. Often this happens partially; it looks like part of the canopy has been "forced down" as if someone is pushing on it from above.