who should pay for cutaway costs

[airgord 1]

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If you try to get a packer to pay for your shit you are a douche bag. If you judge a packer on a single pack job, you are a douche bag.

Pay your money, take your chances.

+1

[popsjumper 2]

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The more important question is why were you jumping a fully elliptical canopy with 100 +/- jumps to begin with?

Ruh Roh.
Maybe he needs to meet Sangi?
Or, the kid from the Pacific NW?
Or, how many others?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Krip 2]

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The more important question is why were you jumping a fully elliptical canopy with 100 +/- jumps to begin with?

Ruh Roh.
Maybe he needs to meet Sangi?
Or, the kid from the Pacific NW?
Or, how many others?

Just wait there's more coming

We used to say "Who said skydivers are stupid they invented a new way to kill themselves" and now the young ones are doing the same stupid shit

To bad so sad

R

One Jump Wonder

[hcsvader 1]

The only way to get faster at packing is to practice. Paying someone to pack for you wont help you learn to pack effeciently.

If your not getting on every second load then there is really no reason to have somone pack for you to save time.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[Scrumpot 1]

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...but if you're big enough to put yourself under a fully elliptical canopy at a hundred jumps, then the cost of a repack is the least you're you're putting on the line.

What he said.
Bears repeating.
And I will remove the parrens! ...Not merely secondary or "non-applicable" here at all. In fact, probably should be PRIMARY.

Think.
Please.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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If you try to get a packer to pay for your shit you are a douche bag. If you judge a packer on a single pack job, you are a douche bag.

Pay your money, take your chances.

If that is your attitude towards a legitimate question, then i ask you to please refrain from posting.

I couldn't give a flying fuck what you ask. Do they have a new Mod training program here that we don't know about?

I think I got the point across as to how stupid it would be to ask a packer to pay for your gear. If that bothers you, land with your freebag.

[rehmwa 2]

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And who's to say that it wasn't your fault as the jumper by pitching while in a bad body position, etc?

I try to just avoid the pissy discussions about "Who's fault was the mal"

I think the person that pays is the one that had their butt saved. (that also includes if someone jumps on borrowed gear and they lose the freebag or even the main, he has to replace the equipment also). This is for sport jumps, not students or tandems (which should be handled by the DZ as normal business expense)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[hangdiver 1]

Why are some skydivers such pussies...???

Who the fuck held a gun at their head and made them get on the plane...???

The packer...???

You're jumping out of a god damned airplane...

What could possibly go wrong...???



aahh...I dunno...



hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[MajorDad 0]

To the OP,

You want to jump an elliptical at 100 jumps, you deserve what you get.

You poor choice in canopy selection was probably one of the links in the chain that contributed to the cutaway.

Wouldnt be the least bit surprised if you had a GoPro on as well...

Treat the sport with the respect it deserves before you pound in.

Dial it back a notch or three...

My 2 cents.

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[davelepka 4]

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I think the person that pays is the one that had their butt saved

Indeed. Nobody is forcing you to make the jump, and nobody is forcing you to jump this rig or that rig, packed by this guy or that guy.

If you board the aircraft with a rig you intend to jump, it's your job to asses is the rig is ariworthy, and deal with the repercussions of jumping that rig. If that includes personally packing the rig, so be it. If you feel that you don't need to be involved in the packing process, that's also your choice.

I choose to pack my own rig, everytime. I also choose to be present and observiing while my rigger repacks my reserve. I also choose to not jump borrowed gear. The end result is a tight control over the equipment I jump, and I have had very few equipment related problems since I began conducting my jumping in that manner.

There are a couple of exceptions - students who don't know how to pack and are jumping rental rigs. The DZO generally requires one of their own packers to pack the rigs, and they are being rented out for profit, and in those cases, I feel that the DZO is taking the responsibility for the rigs. They provide the maintenance and packers, and they charge the students to cover the eventuality of a lost component.

The other exception is tandem instructors - they are frequently being told to jump a specific rig packed by another person who they did not choose. Again, this is a for-profit venture, and as far as I know, no DZO holds the TI financially responsible for a lost component during a cutaway.

In the end, for a licensed jumper, you pays your money, you take your chances.

[femTo 0]

funny thread.

Too me it looks like TWS3998 asked a question, he thought he know the answer to, just wanted to be reasured that he wasn't riped off. (the first 4 posts) because it reads like he paied it.

after that it gets slowly more and more aggressive. and has not much to do anymore with the question.

[DougH 270]

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Here is my question...
Who is responsible for paying for the lost free bag and reserve re-pack?
I assume myself.

Do you even have to ask?

The packer didn't make you jump out of the plane, he closed your container for an agreed fee, I am sure he used due care, and that is all he owes you.

And since you even have to think about it tell your packers in advance that your not the person they want business from.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DSE 3]

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I think the person that pays is the one that had their butt saved. (that also includes if someone jumps on borrowed gear and they lose the freebag or even the main, he has to replace the equipment also). This is for sport jumps, not students or tandems (which should be handled by the DZ as normal business expense)

Fully agree. With 5 rigs of my own often being used by wingsuit students, there have been a few chops over the years. The borrower/user know they'll be paying for any lost gear and repack. And have, in every instance.
Yesterday, a visiting packer misrouted a bridle that resulted in a container lock. The jumper paid for his reserve re-pack, as (I believe) he should. Folks now know to avoid that packer in the future.

[iluvtofly 0]

Yes, you pay for it all. And after you're done paying for that go buy "The Canopy and It's Pilot". And get yourself off an elliptical canopy before you kill yourself.

[nigel99 143]

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I think the person that pays is the one that had their butt saved. (that also includes if someone jumps on borrowed gear and they lose the freebag or even the main, he has to replace the equipment also). This is for sport jumps, not students or tandems (which should be handled by the DZ as normal business expense)

Fully agree. With 5 rigs of my own often being used by wingsuit students, there have been a few chops over the years. The borrower/user know they'll be paying for any lost gear and repack. And have, in every instance.
Yesterday, a visiting packer misrouted a bridle that resulted in a container lock. The jumper paid for his reserve re-pack, as (I believe) he should. Folks now know to avoid that packer in the future.

Mainly stirring trouble but it seems like the supervising rigger should pick up the tab for the repack. That is on the assumption that there was one.

Isn't this a classic example of why the regs require supervision of packers?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[hchunter614 0]

Can I buy my bounce bingo ticket now please? I'd like to beat the rush.

All joking aside...

If the jump numbers in your profile is up to date (hell even if you have many more jumps than that) do yourself a favor and read through the threads on here about Sangi.

[JSE 1]

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Fully agree. With 5 rigs of my own often being used by wingsuit students, there have been a few chops over the years. The borrower/user know they'll be paying for any lost gear and repack. And have, in every instance.
Yesterday, a visiting packer misrouted a bridle that resulted in a container lock. The jumper paid for his reserve re-pack, as (I believe) he should. Folks now know to avoid that packer in the future.

Yep, this is the right thing to do, but the other posters who are slamming the OP need to stop. He came here to ask the proper etiquette. He is trying to do the right thing.
Frankly if I had a packer pack me total I would be super pissed myself. Yes we pay for the pack job not the opening, but we pay for it to be done with at least some level of competency. I hope someone had a very long talk with this visiting packer you mentioned.

[DSE 3]

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Mainly stirring trouble but it seems like the supervising rigger should pick up the tab for the repack. That is on the assumption that there was one.

Isn't this a classic example of why the regs require supervision of packers?

Might as well go after the DPRE, too.
Jumper should have checked for his own misrouted bridle.
Jumper should have set his own brakes on the ground.
Jumper should have opened the slider and cocked the PC on the ground.
Packer should check that these things are done.
Jumper should change out their own closing loop, provide a closing loop, or ask the packer to change it out and then not bitch when it's the wrong length.

A packer that consistently packs chops, hard openings, or line twists will lose customers very fast.

[chuckakers 369]

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funny thread.

Too me it looks like TWS3998 asked a question, he thought he know the answer to, just wanted to be reasured that he wasn't riped off. (the first 4 posts) because it reads like he paied it.

after that it gets slowly more and more aggressive. and has not much to do anymore with the question.

More threads with questions like TWS3998's need to go off-topic the way this one has. His question is what was off-topic here. His butt shouldn't have been jumping a fully elliptical in the first place.

BTW, I sent him a message asking him to reply to my question about his choice to fly it with so few jumps. Now we'll see if he is skydiver enough to answer.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[davelepka 4]

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Mainly stirring trouble but it seems like the supervising rigger should pick up the tab for the repack. That is on the assumption that there was one.

I don't know what the purpose of the 'supervising rigger' is in the UK, but in the US it does not include personally checking every step of every pack job. The truth is, I don't know what the exact purpose of the supervising rigger is in the US, just that they need to be 'there'.

All of that aside, a misrouted bridle is an 'outside' problem, which means the jumper should have caught it on a gear check. It was well within the jumpers means to check it, and I think most would agree that ckecking the main pin/bridle area is a definate part of a standard gear check.

Something like an unstowed brake (let's assume this packer sets the brakes for you), even though you could pop a riser cover and check it, that would not be part of a 'standard' gear check, and a jumper could get a 'pass' for not checking it.

Something like a line-over or a flip through is an 'inside' problem, and not something that can be detected once the rig is closed.

A mis-routed bridle fall square in jumper-land, and the jumper should have taken care of it. If this was a wingsuiting student, or newer wingsuiter, it's a fine example of missing the bigger picture and probably how that one kid managed to jump without his legstraps around his legs. There are more things to think about, more going on, and more excitment in general when jumping a wingsuit, but you have to remember the key word in the phrase is 'jumping'. You're still making a skydive, and still need to cover the basics while dealing with the 'fancy stuff' at the same time.

This is where packers are a double-edged sword. On the one hand, you would think that jumpers using a packer would have more time for the 'basics' because they're not busy with packing. While their rig is being packed, they can manifest, hydrate, un-hydrate (pee) and check their voicemail, while jumpers who pack for themselves still have to do all of the above. You would think that those using a packer would have more time for gear checks, weather checks, and just being on top of their game in general.

However, what I see more of is a version of Booths law. While jumpers using a packer should have more time, they seem to end up giving up that advantage and tyring to make shorter calls, or just fit more 'other stuff' into the time they do have, and leaving no extra time for the 'basics'.

It's skydiving folks, and it goes from being real fun to you being real dead in a hurry. Unless you've been present for a significant incident, it's hard to understand how fast everything goes from 'just fine' to 'not even close to fine, with the DZ grinding to a halt, and an ambulance and line of news vans on the way'. Remember your FJC, and make sure you have all of that stuff covered before adding anything esle to a jump.

[g2gjump 0]

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If you try to get a packer to pay for your shit you are a douche bag. If you judge a packer on a single pack job, you are a douche bag.

Pay your money, take your chances.

If that is your attitude towards a legitimate question, then i ask you to please refrain from posting.

I couldn't give a flying fuck what you ask. Do they have a new Mod training program here that we don't know about?

I think I got the point across as to how stupid it would be to ask a packer to pay for your gear. If that bothers you, land with your freebag.

Sorry i asked, I will let you finish your temper-tantrum

[airtwardo 6]

The truth is, I don't know what the exact purpose of the supervising rigger is in the US, just that they need to be 'there'.

I'm guessing liability, somebody has to take the rap...the supervision rigger is designated.

They are the one with 'something to lose' if gross negligence is found.

What are they gonna do, go after a broke ass 'canopy compressor' for all of their Ramon noodles?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[tws3998 0]

This thread took over a life on its own, took me over an hour just to catch up reading it.

I except all the risks of skydiving and am paying all the costs associated with that risk. It was an exciting jump and a learning experience. Money isn't as important as making it back on the ground alive. I have respect for packer and everything is cool between us.

On the Elliptical Canopy question, the demo canopy was ordered for me by one of the instructors on the DZ that has given me some good canopy coach type advice. I have been jumping Sabre2, Silhouette and Pilot for most of my jumps. My worst accuracy has been under the square canopy. My wing load that is 1.1.

[chuckakers 369]

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On the Elliptical Canopy question, the demo canopy was ordered for me by one of the instructors on the DZ that has given me some good canopy coach type advice. I have been jumping Sabre2, Silhouette and Pilot for most of my jumps. My worst accuracy has been under the square canopy. My wing load that is 1.1.

It is that kind of backwards thinking that is killing skydivers and will kill you too.

1. You have 100 or so jumps and have divided them across 3 very different canopies. Now you believe it's ok to go to a fully elliptical. This only serves to PROVE that you don't understand what you are doing.

2. You have apparently created a logic AGAINST squares when you say your worst accuracy was on a square. That is so overly simplistic it only goes to demonstrate how little you know and how misguided your logic is. There are so many other factors in your accuracy or lack thereof beyond the canopy you were under that reducing your argument to that is nothing short of very scary.

3. Your instructor will have multiple units of your blood on his hands when you eat it - and you will. There is no such thing as "good canopy coach type advice" that can be given to a newbie with 100 jumps on an elliptical. Giving advice for a 100-jump wonder to jump an elliptical is by definition BAD advice.

4. An instructor even considering a person with your experience - or more accurately LACK of experience - jumping an elliptical is not an instructor. That is called a BAD instructor and he or she should be called out. Please pass that word along and ask if he/she cares to come on this public forum and defend the advice given to you. My guess is the answer will be a deafening silence.

It is absolutely mind-blowing to me that the sport continues to scratch its collective head at why we can't solve the canopy incident issue that plagues us on a global basis. Do we really need to look any further than situations like this one for the answer, folks?????

I think not.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[beowulf 1]

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On the Elliptical Canopy question, the demo canopy was ordered for me by one of the instructors on the DZ that has given me some good canopy coach type advice.

Find a new instructor, this one isn't giving you good advice. It's more like dangerously bad advice.