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Justpin

Time to give up for a while?

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I have the good fortune to be appreciated by my students, and anybody else can kiss my ass.



I think you have it there. Putting it that way... I shall take a chill pill ;)
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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GO TO SPAIN!



Exactly what the Canadian said! DO IT!

After finishing my German licence, I was feeling the same like you: Whoah, how boring is jumping on myself :S

Went to Empuria again where I started, met a Yank, he asked me about my plans for jumping, I had no plans! Just having a proper exit, that was all! It ended in a wonderful 2way with this guy from the States (he was at around 800), a lot of fun and many more jumps with him and later with others - that was the moment I discovered I knew nothing. Absolutely nothing. Learning started after that, and the fun started same time!!!

Jump with others asap!

Today, I only have a bit over 700 but - I try my very best to work on my jumps with others, never alone.

Give it a try B| Other DZ's, other countries, other faces.

B|

Of course, this message is for Justpin ....:)

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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GO TO SPAIN!



Yes, Spain (or Florida or pretty much everywhere else). There is something definitely wrong with the new jumper scene in the UK.

In the UK, I’ll frequently offer to jump with new jumpers and am taken back by their overt gratitude. They’re gushing; they can’t believe someone is willing to do it for free. I’ll video them and send them a link to download – they’re ecstatic. They often tell me that with their 50-100ish jumps, no one has ever actually offered to jump with them for fun or take a photo/video of them.

Seems not much has changed (has actually gotten worse) for new UK jumpers. Even if you take the money aspect out of the equation: back when I had around your number of jumps, I didn’t care what it cost and just wanted to get this “Glorious FS1”; after months of trying to get the coached jumps completed in the UK, said f**k it and went to Empuriabrava and completed it in 2 days.

Keep at it; it will get better. When you visit your first boogies in places like Zephyrhills, Empuriabrava or even little 206 DZs in the middle of nowhere, it’s a different world ...you will find people who do this for fun.
"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

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Actually mate you can do more than solo's at being A-license in the UK, you just need to jump with others who have a Fs1. There is only one non fs1 allowed on a jump with others as long as they have it your




You must have missed the BPA's official "clarification" which basically says that no you can't unless the other guys are coaches.


so the Bpa ops manual is out of date or been failed to be updated as per NB1 in section 6.4 thats a bit lax on their part :S

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun


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***, The program seems to beg for a cost-effective solution by considering models used in other countries.



I think this is spot on.


Well it does seem to work at keeping the riff raff out if they can't afford to play with the "right" people.

;)

K-RIP

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Actually mate you can do more than solo's at being A-license in the UK, you just need to jump with others who have a Fs1. There is only one non fs1 allowed on a jump with others as long as they have it your




You must have missed the BPA's official "clarification" which basically says that no you can't unless the other guys are coaches.


so the Bpa ops manual is out of date or been failed to be updated as per NB1 in section 6.4 thats a bit lax on their part :S


Correct. Although the BPA insist the ops manual has only been "misinterpreted" and therefore doesn't need updating.

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in the uk there is an FS1 qualification. without this you can only do solo's or jump with coaches.
If this person does not have FS1 and jumps at a DZ with not many coaches or is not willing to pay for coaching to get his FS1 then yes it is going to get boring just doing solo lobs.

Go to another dz get a coach get your FS1 then have fun with everyone else



Anyone know how this requirement affects visiting jumpers from other countries? Is there a license level that is granted equivalency?
Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

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Actually mate you can do more than solo's at being A-license in the UK, you just need to jump with others who have a Fs1. There is only one non fs1 allowed on a jump with others as long as they have it your




You must have missed the BPA's official "clarification" which basically says that no you can't unless the other guys are coaches.


so the Bpa ops manual is out of date or been failed to be updated as per NB1 in section 6.4 thats a bit lax on their part :S


Correct. Although the BPA insist the ops manual has only been "misinterpreted" and therefore doesn't need updating.


think that sound pretty busllS*^t mate and has this been brought before council ?

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun


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think that sound pretty busllS*^t mate and has this been brought before council ?



Tell me about it. I don't honestly know where it is with the council but there has been a lot of very vocal criticism of it. As it stands, I think the ultimate decision is still with individual CCI's.

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Well I'm going to go against the flow.

Your thinking is right,
Stop jumping, it's not for eveyone,
Just because you can does not mean you should.

Go try free climbing, or down hill mountain biking, both of which will give you a massive rush.
Or whatever else you might like to raise your BP.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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1) Back-flying
2) Sit-flying
3) Free-fly transitions
4) Different exits including the above



Trying to learn the about without some form of coaching or instruction is called flailing. After 15 to 20 jumps he still won’t be able to freefly but he will get better at flailing.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Trust me, after the 20th jump in a row where you get out and provide a base while somebody else does all the flying, the free jumps angle isn't very appealing.



Back in the day we would do it every weekend and pay for our own slot. The only requirements were a willingness to learn and a promise to pass it on. Today it seems like everything is geared toward bleeding the student and getting free jumps.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Go to another dz get a coach get your FS1 then have fun with everyone else



Anyone know how this requirement affects visiting jumpers from other countries? Is there a license level that is granted equivalency?



+1.

And supplemental question/information: I did everything on that FS1 list and more (turned more points in 4-way, did a 1-pt 5-way) before I hit 30 jumps. Does the UK have a better safety record than elsewhere? Does all that extra coach jumping really lead to better/more skilled/safer jumpers? Are those coach jumps structured in some kind of progression, regardless of where the student performs them, to be sure the student actually demonstrates all the skills over that whole period? (not being rhetorical -- I'd really like to understand this).

And so included in this is my +1 paraphrase of kuai43's question: can I take my USPA B license at 50-whatever jumps, and be afforded the same courtesies as an FS1-holder? Can the OP realistically complete another country's requirements, then go home and jump with that equivalent? (again, serious question for the UK jumpers here)
See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

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Actually mate you can do more than solo's at being A-license in the UK, you just need to jump with others who have a Fs1. There is only one non fs1 allowed on a jump with others as long as they have it your




You must have missed the BPA's official "clarification" which basically says that no you can't unless the other guys are coaches.


so the Bpa ops manual is out of date or been failed to be updated as per NB1 in section 6.4 thats a bit lax on their part :S


Correct. Although the BPA insist the ops manual has only been "misinterpreted" and therefore doesn't need updating.


Can you provide a link to any official (or not!) communication from the BPA that says any of this?
The ops manual is all skydivers have to go on - if the BPa think that the possibility of misinterpretation is there, then they are obliged to alter it.

If the BPA were serious about it, they'd make the wording explicit - it doesn't cost anything. Of course, it would smack of making an actual policy - something seemingly forbidden in the BPA lingo(!), but this sounds off to me - where did you hear this?

From the Ops Manual "No more than one Category 8 jumper per group, all other jumpers in any group must be FS1 parachutists." (6.4.1 NB1)

No mention of coaches anywhere. Seems clear to me, and every other skydiver out there.

To the OP - you may be done. It's not for everyone. I quit eventually. But if you're not, the rules allow you to do more than solos.

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And so included in this is my +1 paraphrase of kuai43's question: can I take my USPA B license at 50-whatever jumps, and be afforded the same courtesies as an FS1-holder? Can the OP realistically complete another country's requirements, then go home and jump with that equivalent? (again, serious question for the UK jumpers here)



I haven't jumped in the UK, but I did take my B-license to a dz with the intent of jumping. Yes you can take your B license and at this DZ you would have been accepted.

That said having grown used to a very friendly US dz (The Farm) I found the general attitude sucked, people were not welcoming or friendly so I left.

To the OP - if you haven't had a chance to do RW at 80 jumps you need to go and visit a friendly dz in Spain or the US. I know a couple of people with 1000+ jumps who really enjoy doing 2, 3 or 4 ways with people who have just got their A license.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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Misinterpretation of the Grading System

Below are the requirements for obtaining FS1 within the Grading System. N.B.(1)
refers to coaching or qualification jumps and was included so that no more than one
trainee FS1 jumper would be included in 3 or 4-way training or qualifying jumps.
Some CCIs appear to have misunderstood this N.B. and are permitting non-qualified
FS1 jumpers to jump with FS1 qualified jumpers who are not FS coaches (or jumpers
with coaching experience).
It is not the intention that non-qualified jumpers, be it FS, FF, CF etc should jump
with others of the same discipline until they are suitably qualified, i.e. FS1, FF1, CF
etc, as this would go against the whole principle of the Grading System.

6.4. Formation Skydiving (FS)

6.4.1. To obtain Grade 1 in Formation Skydiving (FS1) the parachutist must, be introduced to FS by a CCI/Advanced Instructor nominated FS1 Grade parachutist or equivalent of proven FS instructional ability, have received a full safety brief and demonstrated the ability to:
a) Control fall rate.
b) Control horizontal movement, (forwards, backwards and sideways).
c) Achieve �docking� techniques.
d) Turn in place.
e) Dive and approach a target.
f) Complete four points of 4-way FS.
N.B.(1) No more than one Category 8 jumper per group, all other jumpers in any group must be FS1 parachutists.
N.B.(2) Training programmes other than those contained in the BPA Formation Skydiving (FS) Manuals are acceptable for training for FS1, provided all the
requirements of sub-para 6.4.1. (above) are met.

25th March 2010
John Hitchen NCSO
Tony Butler Technical Officer
Distribution: CCIs, Council

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That perhaps explains a lot i don't spend much time on this site these days and its doesn't represent all the jumpers in the UK. Then they are wondering why they perhaps have a problem with retention at the Bpa :o:S, Its not rocket science they are basically taking all the fun out of jumping in the Uk and the Bpa ops manual online is still not changed. For all you guys wanting a look at it either pdf or word click here

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun


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Trying to learn the about without some form of coaching or instruction [my emphasis] is called flailing.



You're ignoring my statement, "with the aid of books and video"

A person with 82 jumps might flail solo or with a coach, but if he has been approved to jump unsupervised, he will have the ability to get stable above his break-off altitude, check for traffic, and track if necessary before deployment. The only question then is how much money he wants to spend on training and how fast he wants to learn.

We're talking about someone who wants solo jumps to be more rewarding. Flailing is not a crime--I did some of it when I was learning freefly transitions on solo jumps and you can bet those who developed this discipline did also. I took it in stride as part of the learning process and eventually developed the skills. Many others have also.

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he still won’t be able to freefly but he will get better at flailing.



And of course those who are eager to point this out to him will give him one more reason to quit skydiving.


Edit: Having added my 2-cents worth, it’s the UK jumpers discussing the requirements and privileges of their training program who have made the greater contribution to this thread. Any new jumper will benefit more from being able to participate with the general population of skydivers, and any organization who represents them would do well to facilitate this as early as possible within the limits of safety.

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I think the USPA A licence includes basic FS skills whereas the BPA A licence doesn't. All this talk of free flying is a bit redundant under the UK system as you need to show proficiency on your belly before moving onto free flying. For all practical purposes, that means getting an FS1.

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I think the USPA A licence includes basic FS skills whereas the BPA A licence doesn't. All this talk of free flying is a bit redundant under the UK system as you need to show proficiency on your belly before moving onto free flying. For all practical purposes, that means getting an FS1.



Correct a USPA A license includes 2 dive and docks and some basic FS. It seems that under the USPA system once you have your A you are free to do most skydiving activities. UK and Oz appear to treat B license as the first stage after "student".
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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I know Joel doesn't need sticking up for, but I think this is a bit harsh.

There are many people (Joellercoaster included) who are incredibly good to new jumpers, giving up time on the ground and in the air to ensure progression. But to say you have to pay for your jump when providing a service is a bit much, even if it was done "back in the day".

I was lucky enough to start jumping before the rule clarification so I did jump with other people before I had FS1 with them paying their own slots. I did however pay for coached jumps - their slot plus a fee on top. I repaid the "free" jumps I got by paying my slot and jumping with other non-FS1s after I got mine until the clarification came in and I no longer could. I plan on getting my coaching rating/sign off from the CCI (which pretty much equates to the same thing) as soon as possible and initially pay for my own slot with non-FS1s. However, as soon as it stops being fun for me (generally because of the feeling of being taken for granted) I will probably ask my slot be paid or stop coaching.

The camera man on a 4way dive expects their slot to be paid, a tandem master expects to be paid when he does a tandem. Why? Because they're providing a service and have had to pay out a lot of money to get to the level to be able to provide it. Why should a coach not expect at least their slot paid if they are doing a coaching jump?

Justpin, different dropzones differ majorly. And dropzones everyone else thinks are amazing may not be your cup of tea. I understand the need to drive for hours isn't great, but if you're serious about the sport you may find you have to do it. Find some friends who are equally disgruntled with your local DZ and save money (and frostbite) by car sharing further afield for the odd weekend.

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in reply to "Why should a coach not expect at least their slot paid if they are doing a coaching jump? "
.............................................

Not getting what you paid for is one reason.

I've watched many 'coachees' sit around waiting for their coach who is in the sky and going to hot-load their coaching jump, giving instructions on the ride to height.
Then the guy runs for the next load.
Who'd want to pay more than once for that type of lesson, even if the coach was some sort of hero ?
Sure there are pro's out there, but its hit or miss at most DZ's.

Coaching used to be handled quite economically by sport skydivers.
It was and still is fun to introduce newish people to the fun of freefall with others.
Gotta be a coach now:S
Coaches that always want to be paid can be seen as hogging a very formative time for most skydivers ....and they make them pay a premium just to jump with them...and then what?

It's a good thing seeing experienced skydivers, not run by a free jump mentality , picking up the pieces after the $$$$suckers are finished with them.

Its a sport, remember? not just a $$$$$$ generator.

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