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MakeItHappen

USPA pays for LB attorney's fees

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Hey Ian.. what do I need to do to join CSPA:ph34r:



All it takes is about $92 CDN. :P

We have our own set of issues in Canada. Try being an effective national organization when the membership is less than 2,500 from coast to coast, and you get to publish everything in two languages!

Everything is done by volunteers that are over worked. We have a headquarters paid staff of I think 1.5 bodies, that I believe works out of the basement of the 1 whole body. It has to be a tough job, she is the focal point for everything in Canada.

As pres of ASPA I am off to the AGM of CSPA in a couple of weeks. Should be fun! ;)
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

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Sorry if my post implied that it was a bad mark on ES. That was not my intention.

What I was trying to say is that since the board has usurped his authority by re-hiring the person he fired, that he will probably leave of his own accord and go someplace where his decisions are respected. As of now he gets to wonder if he has any decision making authority, or if the board is going to second guess him on everything. Who need that hanging over their head? Good people leave rather than put up with that.



I don't know anything about the situation, history, or people involved, but I would conclude the same just on general experiences w/ other organizations. Once somebody has been undermined like that it is almost impossible to continue to work effectively in that job. Somebody who would tolerate such second-guessing probably shouldn't be an executive.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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USPA pays for LB attorney's fees

There was a motion at the BOD meeting that said something to the effect "allow USPA to pay Larry Bagley $1000.00 for his attorney fees."

So why is USPA paying for Larry Bagley's attorney fees?

Ed Scott, the Executive Director, fired Larry Bagley, the Director of Competition, a few weeks ago.

The Executive Director has full authority to hire and fire people that work at headquarters. [GM Sec1-2.6 Administrative Staff] The BOD hires the Executive Director, and the BOD does not have authority to hire or fire staff at HQ.

So after the BOD was informed about LB being fired, some 'consultations' took place.
One of those 'consultations' was LB talking to an attorney.
Other 'consultations' were between ES & BOD members, specifically JS.

The end result of it all was that LB was 'rehired' and part of the agreement terms were that USPA pay for the attorney that he hired when he found out he was fired.

Those are the facts that I know about.

I don't know anything about the employment terms of LB with USPA, so I have no idea if ES had valid reasons or not to fire LB. In the meantime, 'the grumpy old man' that others like to call LB, continues on and will come to a DZ near you to yell at you personally.

.



Hi Jan,
When I was on the board I tried to find out what LB's job was and how much we were paying him. Several prominent people in my region had asked me to look into it but I never did get any answers. I was essentialy told it was none of my business. One fellow long-time board member actually told me it was "confidential" and even said "no one asks you how much money you make do they?

I was absolutely amazed at the attitude. This guy works for us and as his employer we are not even allowed to know how much we are paying him? Maybe it is not that much, or maybe it is a ridiculous amount, no one knows.

He isn't even required to show up for work. He lives in Utah and the last time I checked the USPA HQ office is in Virginia. All the other staff shows up for work, we know what they do and how much they are paid but LB has this mystery job that pays him an undisclosed amount of money out of the memberships coffers. I am guessing this was some sweetheart deal set up by Ottley years ago and somehow he was able to hang onto it unnoticed by the rest of us.

His title is director of competition and "special projects" I think we all understand what competiton is but what exactly is a special project and how much does it cost us? At the meetings he acted like he was secretly in charge of the association and was either obstructing or telling us all how we should vote or what we were allowed to do.

LB is also listed as an S&TA at large for the mountain region which seems like a conflict of interest for a paid staff member. To the best of my knowledge he doesn't jump anymore or show up at any DZ in the region but you must be a resident to hold that title. How can you work on the staff in fredericksberg and live 3000 miles away?

I think Ed did the right thing and it should have been done long ago. And now we have to hire him back and pay his legal fees? Un-friggin believable!

I would encourage all USPA members to contact their regional and national directors and ask these questions:

1. What exactly does Larry bagley do and how much do we pay him?

2. Why was he fired, and why are we giving him his mystery job back?

3. How much do we pay him for travel and expenses each year? Does the membership pay for his travel from his home state to USPA HQ?

4. Why is the ED's authority to hire and fire staff positions being undermined?

We have the right to know what our dues are being used for especially in light of the recent increase
Onward and Upward!

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I would encourage all USPA members to contact their regional and national directors and ask these questions:

1. What exactly does Larry bagley do and how much do we pay him?

2. Why was he fired, and why are we giving him his mystery job back?

3. How much do we pay him for travel and expenses each year? Does the membership pay for his travel from his home state to USPA HQ?

4. Why is the ED's authority to hire and fire staff positions being undermined?

We have the right to know what our dues are being used for especially in light of the recent increase



Don't call/write me, here is my response to these questions.

1. In charge of comp and special projects. Pretty much anything that no one else seems to take on, Larry does. I've seen his job, he's underpaid.

2. All workings with employees is considered confidential. While there are board members with information, they cannot share confidential employee information, and they haven't with me either.

3. Ask the finance committee, but I bet that is also confidential because it could be considered part of his compensation.

4. I don't remember being asked to re-hire anybody. Is it in the minutes that way?

Being new to the BOD maybe I'm just not privy to all the conspiracies yet, or I'm not cool enough.:P

Craig Stapleton
Pacific RD
Jump more, post less!

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WHY on earth would you want to work with or near people that don't want ya there?! :S



Because it takes senior people who weren't already looking for work a number of months (I've heard 1 month per $10K of salary, although three to six months has been more reasonable in my experience) to find a position that's a good fit, senior people hold out for that because they don't need a job-hopping reputation, good positions pay a lot more than unemployment insurance, multiplying that delta by the job search length is a lot of money, and a lot of people would take $XXXXX to put up with the people who don't want them for a few months longer.

I spent $30,000 in savings the one time I left a position without having another one lined up and would not willingly repeat the experience even if it meant getting my lawyer involved.

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Hi Scott,

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One fellow long-time board member actually told me it was "confidential" and even said "no one asks you how much money you make do they?



Things like that is why I voted for you & a bunch of other people who did not get elected to the BOD.

IMO ( and I am only one USPA member ), their salaries should be public knowledge ( 'public' being the membership ).

I spent 30 yrs working for the federal gov't. and anyone could get my salary by merely making a phone call.

It is OUR money.

JerryBaumchen

PS) And I agree, I think Ed Scott can now be considered a 'short-timer.' I know I'd be looking elsewhere.

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Every single BOD member and HQ staff, should answer to to the membership, nothing should be with held from the membership, travel expenses, rates of pay for their jobs, hours spent on the clock, all of it above board and in the open for all the membership to know and see.

Seems that the BOD and a few at HQ forget who they work for, but what else is new this is been going on for years and most the membership refuse to 1. vote & 2. give a shit about any of it till impacts their little corner of the skydiving world, then they scream bloody murder and bitch about "how come we didn't know any of this" or "why were we not told this".
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Thanks for the response Craig;

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1. In charge of comp and special projects. Pretty much anything that no one else seems to take on, Larry does. I've seen his job, he's underpaid.



Pretty vauge response as to what he does but you say he is underpaid. Really? And what exactly is that?
If you work in the private sector (let's say your a dentist);) Then it really is not my business what you make. But if you work for the government and your salary is paid with my taxes or you work for an association and your salary is paid with my dues then I have every right to know what you get paid. In essence you are my employee and I have every right to know what you make. I would at least expect you to show up for work at the office on a regular basis.

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2. All workings with employees is considered confidential. While there are board members with information, they cannot share confidential employee information, and they haven't with me either.



Bull, see above. During the last election we were told by several candidates that this secret squirrel crap was going to end and that USPA would be above board and open with it's membership. So far those promises have not been kept. (I know you were seated on the board the same way I was so I am not directing this towards you)
As a board member I knew exactly what we were paying the new executive director because I was involved in the selection process but I was not allowed to know what someone working underneath the ED was paid. Why not? What are they hiding?


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3. Ask the finance committee, but I bet that is also confidential because it could be considered part of his compensation.



More bull, I know what the President of the US makes, but I am not allowed to know what an employee who gets paid from my dues makes? Again, why not? Are they afraid someone might do the job better for less money? As I said before maybe he is underpaid or maybe he is overpaid, I have no way of knowing due to the secrecy that USPA continues to hide behind.


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4. I don't remember being asked to re-hire anybody. Is it in the minutes that way?



Just going by what Jan said above. she stated he was fired and re-hired and now he wants the membership to pay for his attourney. If this is in fact the case then the ED was overruled which is a blatant disregard for his documented authority.

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Being new to the BOD maybe I'm just not privy to all the conspiracies yet, or I'm not cool enough.:P



You can call it a "conspiracy" if you want. Other BOD have used this tactic in the past to try to discredit anyone who raises an eyebrow and wants answers to simple questions.

I just want to know why he was fired. I don't need every detail maybe job performance, budget cuts, whatever. There has to be a reason. What does the director of comp and "special projects" do? Was the position going to be re-filled or eliminated? Why he was abruptly re-hired and why he expects the membership to pay for his lawyer. He works for us, we have a right to know.
Onward and Upward!

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Hi Scott,

Quote

One fellow long-time board member actually told me it was "confidential" and even said "no one asks you how much money you make do they?



Things like that is why I voted for you & a bunch of other people who did not get elected to the BOD.

IMO ( and I am only one USPA member ), their salaries should be public knowledge ( 'public' being the membership ).

I spent 30 yrs working for the federal gov't. and anyone could get my salary by merely making a phone call.

It is OUR money.

JerryBaumchen

PS) And I agree, I think Ed Scott can now be considered a 'short-timer.' I know I'd be looking elsewhere.



Hi Jerry,

I was a federal firefighter for 23 years and anyone can go on line and see exactly what my job description was and how much I was paid.

But, for some reason USPA thinks that paid employees who earn their salaries from our dues can keep their compensation secret from the membership.

Un-friggin believeable!
Onward and Upward!

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Don't call/write me, here is my response to these questions.

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1. In charge of comp and special projects. Pretty much anything that no one else seems to take on, Larry does. I've seen his job, he's underpaid.


What have you seen him do? How do you know he is underpaid if you don’t know what he is paid? If he does half the things I have heard about he should be out on his ass.

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2. All workings with employees is considered confidential. While there are board members with information, they cannot share confidential employee information, and they haven't with me either.


Considered confidential by whom? While employee’s personal information is required to be help in confidence his/her salary should be available to the members.

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3. Ask the finance committee, but I bet that is also confidential because it could be considered part of his compensation.


Ask the finance committee my ass. Why can’t a member ask his elected representative to look into these things? That is was a representative does. It is this kind of attitude that got us in the shit storm we are in today.

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4. I don't remember being asked to re-hire anybody. Is it in the minutes that way?


I don’t remember, I don’t recall, is it written down anywhere…… Boy do you sound like a politician.

This is not directed at you in particular but to all members of the board in general. It appears that they have turned USPA into their own little play ground and have forgotten who bought the swing.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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2. All workings with employees is considered confidential. While there are board members with information, they cannot share confidential employee information, and they haven't with me either.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bull, see above. During the last election we were told by several candidates that this secret squirrel crap was going to end and that USPA would be above board and open with it's membership. So far those promises have not been kept. (I know you were seated on the board the same way I was so I am not directing this towards you)
As a board member I knew exactly what we were paying the new executive director because I was involved in the selection process but I was not allowed to know what someone working underneath the ED was paid. Why not? What are they hiding?
_______________________________________________

Should at least be able to get a salary range, if not an exact figure. But I'll bet you'd need to get a lawyer involved, and it would probably take a while to get and lots of money.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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WHY on earth would you want to work with or near people that don't want ya there?! :S



Because it takes senior people who weren't already looking for work a number of months (I've heard 1 month per $10K of salary, although three to six months has been more reasonable in my experience) to find a position that's a good fit, senior people hold out for that because they don't need a job-hopping reputation, good positions pay a lot more than unemployment insurance, multiplying that delta by the job search length is a lot of money, and a lot of people would take $XXXXX to put up with the people who don't want them for a few months longer.

I spent $30,000 in savings the one time I left a position without having another one lined up and would not willingly repeat the experience even if it meant getting my lawyer involved.


There are exceptions, but generally if a 'senior' person is caught totally by surprise on the wrong end of a pink slip it's because they weren't very adept at watching the skies and reading the winds.

Often times that inept situational awareness and resulting lack of a solid back up plan is a character weakness that likely had something to do with the termination in the first place.

In the corporate environments of my experience you are either a shark or you are chum. Moving forward is the way a shark survives, if you are sitting still contently wearing blinders ya get what ya deserve.

Preparing always for the unexpected isn't something we should leave in the dropzone parking lot Sunday night. ;)

That being said, and not wanting to drift too far from the thread topic...

The times I've seen things like the LB 'secretly protected' situation in the private sector, it had something to do with an individual having possession or control of something that
'the powers that be' would prefer not see the light of day...in the interest of the organizations well being. >:(

Maybe Larry knows where the bodies are buried?










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I would encourage all USPA members to contact their regional and national directors and ask these questions:

1. What exactly does Larry bagley do and how much do we pay him?

2. Why was he fired, and why are we giving him his mystery job back?

3. How much do we pay him for travel and expenses each year? Does the membership pay for his travel from his home state to USPA HQ?

4. Why is the ED's authority to hire and fire staff positions being undermined?

We have the right to know what our dues are being used for especially in light of the recent increase



Don't call/write me, here is my response to these questions.

1. In charge of comp and special projects. Pretty much anything that no one else seems to take on, Larry does. I've seen his job, he's underpaid.



How do you know he's underpaid if you don't know his salary?

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2. All workings with employees is considered confidential. While there are board members with information, they cannot share confidential employee information, and they haven't with me either.



This is does not answer the question. It really does not matter why LB was fired. The fact is that he was and that authority rests totally with the Executive Director. If the BOD does not approve of the ED decisions the ED ought to be reprimanded or fired. Rouillard(sp?) was fired by the BOD. Ottley got a few corrections from the FB. Specifically, he denied Truffer and me from running an ad for our respective publications. The FB made him accept the ads, not one director or the EC.

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3. Ask the finance committee, but I bet that is also confidential because it could be considered part of his compensation.



To the best of my knowledge, his telecommuting is not reimbursed, but travel to USPA events is.
But the kicker is that his flights are free because his wife is a flight attendant.
It's kind of like collecting the money if you use frequent flyer miles.

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4. I don't remember being asked to re-hire anybody. Is it in the minutes that way?



You were asked to pay for LB's attorney fees. Not a single director asked why USPA was doing that.
If you didn't know anything about the situation, then why didn't you ask?
The BOD normally goes out of its way to explain motions to the rest of the BOD.
If you did know about the situation, then your silence endorses whatever happened.
It wasn't the FB that reversed the ED. It was only one director, perhaps in consultation with the EC.
IMO, the prez usurped the authority of the ED and caused damage to the management of HQ.
My guess is that ES had valid reasons to release LB and JS was bullied into hiring back LB.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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"Bags" still with USPA? What do they do, roll him in under an oxygen tent?

I also noticed Needles received the USPA Lifetime Achievement Award. That bauble once had some cache but they are handing it out like candy. Jerry & Sherry Schrimsher? Really? The ULAA should be reserved for those making game changing contributions. But all too often it’s the parting gift for working at USPA Headquarters. Yes, service to USPA is one specifically cited qualifying factor for the ULAA, but they should strike that out.



Thanks for your opinions, Nick. The sad part is that the unknowing will probably take your opinion for gospel and some reputations will suffer.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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To the best of my knowledge, his telecommuting is not reimbursed, but travel to USPA events is.
But the kicker is that his flights are free because his wife is a flight attendant.
It's kind of like collecting the money if you use frequent flyer miles.



While I can see how this might seem shifty at first glance, flights should still be reimbursed regardless of how they're paid for. Just because there isn't a transfer of cash doesn't mean they're not being paid for with some other valuable good such as frequent flier miles or a spouse's earned compensation.
A dolor netus non dui aliquet, sagittis felis sodales, dolor sociis mauris, vel eu libero cras. Interdum at. Eget habitasse elementum est.

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>>Thanks for your opinions, Nick.
Yes, just an opinion (like everything else on this website) on who specifically gets USPA's highest award. You're free to post in rebuttal on how some of those people are deserving (in your opinion). ;)

NickD :)

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Jerry Schrimsher, Awarded in 2002 (with Sherry Schrimsher) (posthumously)
"For their selfless dedication to USPA's competition and instructional programs and as leaders of the community while serving on USPA's board of directors." [I wanted to steal an airplane and fly it into USPA headquarters after this one, if you can’t guess, it still chaps my ass to this day. Total Bozo!



Naaaa, he wasn't a Bozo, he was just goofy. sure thats where I got it from.:P


Jerry was definitely not a Bozo. At least to me, he was a skydiver that I have the greatest respect for. When I was first learning to jump, Jerry went out of his way to make sure that I and all the other new jumpers on the DZ had quality organized jumps that met our individual skill levels. He was friendly and never did I hear him say a harsh word except when he observed unsafe acts that endangered the lives of others.

Jerry was also a pioneer in the sport. He made his first jump in 1959, the year after I was born. I did not know Jerry when he was a DZO and my experience with him was limited to a brief time during my student days, but I can not fathom how anyone would ever call him a Total Bozo.

Nick, Obviously he rubbed you the wrong way some time over the years, but at least when I knew him, you couldn't have asked for a friendlier individual to be on the DZ.

Now, I'll admit that I wasn't a fan of Sherry as President of USPA, but she was also instrumental in helping me to learn as a student and during my early jumps. She often would provide advice on accuracy. Utilizing her tips I was definitely able to improve my landing skills.

Both were generous, caring individuals at the DZ where I met them.

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Jerry Schrimsher, Awarded in 2002 (with Sherry Schrimsher) (posthumously)
"For their selfless dedication to USPA's competition and instructional programs and as leaders of the community while serving on USPA's board of directors." [I wanted to steal an airplane and fly it into USPA headquarters after this one, if you can’t guess, it still chaps my ass to this day. Total Bozo!



Naaaa, he wasn't a Bozo, he was just goofy. sure thats where I got it from.:P


Jerry was definitely not a Bozo. At least to me, he was a skydiver that I have the greatest respect for. When I was first learning to jump, Jerry went out of his way to make sure that I and all the other new jumpers on the DZ had quality organized jumps that met our individual skill levels. He was friendly and never did I hear him say a harsh word except when he observed unsafe acts that endangered the lives of others.

Jerry was also a pioneer in the sport. He made his first jump in 1959, the year after I was born. I did not know Jerry when he was a DZO and my experience with him was limited to a brief time during my student days, but I can not fathom how anyone would ever call him a Total Bozo.

Nick, Obviously he rubbed you the wrong way some time over the years, but at least when I knew him, you couldn't have asked for a friendlier individual to be on the DZ.

Now, I'll admit that I wasn't a fan of Sherry as President of USPA, but she was also instrumental in helping me to learn as a student and during my early jumps. She often would provide advice on accuracy. Utilizing her tips I was definitely able to improve my landing skills.

Both were generous, caring individuals at the DZ where I met them.



Yeah but that one kid of theirs is real AS%$#@*!!:D:D:D










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I think it went something like this:

ED: You're Fired.

LB: You can't fire me, I have been on the take for decades.

ED: sorry, but we just raised the dues on all members and I don't even know what you do or how much we pay you.

LB: doesn't matter, if you fire me I will sue you. That will cost the membership more than if you just let me keep my phoney-baloney job.

ED: But you don't even come to work, and you live 3000 miles away from the office.

LB: so what, I have been doing this for years, why make this an issue now?

ED: Ok you are right, you can have your job back and here is $1000 bucks for your lawyer.

LB: That is more like it, and here is my travel bill for last month.

See you at the summer meeting.
Onward and Upward!

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...Yeah but that one kid of theirs is real AS%$#@*!!:D:D:D



:D:D:D:D
I'm sitting here next to J LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D:D:D:D:D


I didn't know there was a AS%$#@*!![ convention going on this week :D:D
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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