USPA and FAA reg violations

[RayLosli 11]

After reading the accusations of You-Kevin (pimp daddy) Made of his DZ being a poorly run and a menace to Jumpers physical well being. I would be TRULY interested with the opinions of other jumpers with a few more years of experience and jump #'s who skydive there. before making any decision of blatant Negligent Safety of jumpers.
Kevin you sound REALLY pissed off. I will tell you something when Looking back to the time when I myself had 75 jumps. I did not know my Ass from a hole in the Ground.
But Hey Now, look at you. All grown-up now. Quoting Regs. and passing judgment of your DZ's operations. I would be really interested in you posting some hard facts of what the Injury rate is there or even death rate @ YOUR DZ in question. Which is ? and WHO runs it ?
Now this is only my opinion but that list of petty self-inflated infractions is nothing and with only 75 jumps. You do not know enough to lay judgment on any DZ operations. No DZ or jumper likes a Nark and If this thread you started is not for a Troll..... (i smell Troll). Then you are well on your way to being Branded just that. If you don't like things there on that DZ then Hey like stated before in a post. "You are a paying customer." so maybe you better Move-On. If you are not happy then maybe attach your Newly Acquired jump skills and new found ethics of a sport and life style you have only started to dip your Big Toe in.
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exnavykds:
If we are dealing with ONLY the violations I witnessed first hand, we can start with these...

BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations.

BSR section K, item 2.d states that all students are to be equipped with a functional automatic activation device (AAD) that meets manufacturer’s recommended service schedule (this is also mandated in FAA regulations, section 105.43.c).

BSR section K, item 2.f states that a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student’s weight be provided.

BSR section K, item 2.g states that a freefall student must be equipped with a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute.

FAA regulations, section 65.111 clearly sets forth the criteria as to who can and cannot pack a main parachute.

FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use.
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Man That List really cracks me up..........
Hey, What's your Hard-Core Statement @ the end of all your Posts ?
exnavykds:
"Don't give me those pussy-foot, girly landings. I wanna' land like I live, hard and fast. It’s not a man's landing unless you break something or you can pick grass outta your teeth afterwards!"
.
Now that sounds a little loose and fast with your safety & Saftey of all other jumpers around you. Maybe your should slow down a little before you have to much fun and hurt yourself. Sounds like you need to Harden-Up a little Tiger or Move On.
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[AndyMan 7]

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But Hey Now, look at you. All grown-up now. Quoting Regs. and passing judgment of your DZ's operations. I would be really interested in you posting some hard facts of what the Injury rate is there or even death rate @ YOUR DZ in question. Which is ? and WHO runs it ?

I can't quote an injury or death rate at any DZ I've ever lived at, and I have "been around the block". I certainly don't expect someone new to the sport to be able to do this. The allegations are clear violations, and now they've been backed up by different people.

I was hoping when I first read these accusations that the DZO would have taken the criticism and addressed the concerns. It seems clear that he hasn't.

What's even more amazing is that it seems this DZ has had the attention of the USPA for some time, and even they have been unable to bring change. That's pathetic. What the hell is the point of the Group Membership if there's no downside to clear violations?

We're fortunate that there are people willing to step forward and shine a light on stuff like this. I for one appreciate it.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[exnavykds 0]

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I would be really interested in you posting some hard facts of what the Injury rate is there or even death rate @ YOUR DZ in question.

How would you propose we accurately do that when the DZO doesn't submit incident reports? I could state that I witnessed three broken bones in a two week time span, (four days of jumping) but I'm sure you'd say that was a fluke or an anomaly, right? And do you really suggest we measure the safety of a DZ by its "death rate"? If this is the mentality of EXPERIENCED jumpers then it's no wonder DZ's like this one are allowed to continue.

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Man That List really cracks me up..........

So what part makes you laugh the most? That students are jumping without AADs? That 240lb. students are jumping with 180 reserves? That the student rigs don't have BOC pockets? That students with 5 jumps are packing, unsupervised, for other students? That reserves are often 12 months or more between repacks? I admit, I have a pretty twisted sense of humor too but, try as I might, I just don't see it.

The main division here seems to be between those who see the BSRs as "rules" and those that see them as a loose set of guidelines.

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Kevin you sound REALLY pissed off.

That may be true, but its the result of the indifference shown from those few who seem to care more about a negligent DZO than the students he endangers. If your heart is truly in the right place, then act like the sky-god you claim to be and go check it out for yourself. Go observe a class of first jump students in action. Look over the equipment. Talk to one of the former instructors who now refuses to teach there. PM me and I'll give you the phone numbers of EXPERIENCED, D-licensed jumpers who have, like me, moved on to other DZ's, of riggers who have seen this DZO's work first-hand, or the FAA themselves who just completed an investigation of this drop zone based on "numerous complaints from multiple sources".

But really, what does it matter? In your eyes I'm the villain here. I'm comfortable with that. I'd rather be the villain pushing for a safer dropzone than a complacent, indifferent up-jumper who's not concerned about the well-being of students.

-Kevin

[wmw999 2,120]

Many of the things (not all of them) cited were the norm on dropzones in the 1970's (I was jumping for 5 years in the 1970's). I certainly didn't use AADs on my static line jumps; I packed my own main (although I did have more lessons), the DZs with radio or other guidance for students in the air were few and far between, students were put out students on reserves that would be uncomfortable to land (24' or 28' rounds), and all students jumped old ragged-out gear.

We didn't lose a lot of students that way. I only personally saw one student fatality in the 1970's. The way it's done now is definitely better, but a lot of those protections are against low-likelihood incidents, so he's not likely to see the impact on his students.

That said, telling the DZO that it's unsafe is going to get a rise out of him -- he also remembers when that was the norm, and he probably didn't lose students then either. You can't tell him it's unsafe, but you can tell him there are better ways. So the way to approach from the outside is through the USPA, an ASO, or something like that.

From within, it'd be a matter of figuring out what you can change yourself in the program as a matter of being on the staff -- a packing class program would be a great start, since that seems to be a heavy hitter. Then maybe work with guiding students down, or finding a rigger who can put BOCs on the student gear inexpensively.

As long as he doesn't have a student fatality or injury that's directly related to his gear and methods, he's not likely to see the error of his ways. You can help him to see better ways by actively helping him, or you can call down the authorities.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

If what I'm reading is what you are saying...it's offensive.

I can understand your want for "more experienced" input, but...

To belittle someone for jump numbers is bad enough but to invalidate his observations too?

Reeks of skygod, to me.

exnavykds posts seem pretty knowledgeable about what's going on. What's 75 jumps got to do with this?

How about some positive support or comments? Or even some contructive criticism instead of a blatant dismissal.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,392]

>How would you propose we accurately do that when the DZO doesn't
> submit incident reports?

VERY few DZ's do.

>I could state that I witnessed three broken bones in a two week time
>span, (four days of jumping) but I'm sure you'd say that was a fluke
>or an anomaly, right?

The injury rate at JFTC was higher than that. Whether or not that's a problem depends on whether it happens consistently.

>And do you really suggest we measure the safety of a DZ by
>its "death rate"? If this is the mentality of EXPERIENCED jumpers
>then it's no wonder DZ's like this one are allowed to continue.

Not even that's always valid. Perris is a pretty safety-conscious DZ, and there will be spates of 2-3 fatalities in a year, then a few years with zero deaths.

>That may be true, but its the result of the indifference shown from
> those few who seem to care more about a negligent DZO than the
> students he endangers. If your heart is truly in the right place, then
> act like the sky-god you claim to be and go check it out for yourself.

There's a lot of 'talking around' this DZ. If you truly feel that this DZ has serious safety issues, identify it. If you don't really feel that way, then make that clear.

>But really, what does it matter? In your eyes I'm the villain here. I'm
> comfortable with that. I'd rather be the villain pushing for a safer
> dropzone than a complacent, indifferent up-jumper who's not
> concerned about the well-being of students.

From my perspective, you're complaining without offering anything; you're not even identifying which DZ it is. So you are having as much effect as the guy you're complaining about, which is none.

[popsjumper 2]

I agree...please let me know which DZ so I can at least make an informed decision as to whether or not I want to jump there, at least....PM if that makes you feel more comfortable.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[exnavykds 0]

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From my perspective, you're complaining without offering anything; you're not even identifying which DZ it is

If my intent were to shut the guy down or grind an "ax" then it would have made sense to identify the DZ in the very first post. As I said before PM me and I'll be happy to tell you (any of you). But, unless you're willing to go there and see for yourself, to help persuade the DZO to update his equipment and training methods then naming him here would only look like a personal attack, don't you think?

All that aside, I've learned a lot from the input here. Thank all of you very much. I appreciate the advice and the constructive criticism.

-Kevin

[stillalive 0]

BSRs aren't laws, like HnS said, if you don't like what goes on, leave.

In reality, most paid packers aren't riggers and aren't supervised.

In reality, reserves get pencil-packed a lot. Personally, I always follow the rules on this one.

--------------------------------------------------
Scary, but mostly INDIGNANT.
Leave the DZ and go to anotherone is what any knowledgable and wise skydiver would do, specially if the things going on interfere with personal ethics.

Most of the BSRs mentioned maybe except for the "ground-air radio communication", do not affect the licensed skydiver nor anyone who owns their equipment.
It is the inocent "ignorant to the sport" first time jump student, which is suited up and attached to a backpack full of plates or an old patched up 170 with NO AAD!!!
Most students know little if anything about regulations and are not obligated to be on "the look out" or constantly suspicious about DZ management.

So YES if your experienced and notice violations leave...
And YES BSRs are not laws,, but I think the world would be a safer place if they were.

It is sad to read that nothing can be done about it and that there's no one to turn to.

------ LIFT ME UP!! ------

[RayLosli 11]

popsjumper:
..."To belittle someone for jump numbers is bad enough but to invalidate his observations too?"
,,,,,,,,,,,

Any & All Jumpers have the right to take control of His or Her own Safety @ a DZ no matter what there level of jump #'s.
Dude I'm not trying to belittle him as much as you Think. Plain Fact is it just pissed me off. The guy has 75 jumps and is trying make it sound like His Own DZ is a Death Trap by Roundabout, Back-Hand Accusations of Gross Neglect of Jumpers and Student Jumpers Safety by His Own DZ.
To just throw that SHIT out in the public Forum under the Disguise of ( Seeking Advice For Safety ) & ( what should I do ? ) is Bad Conduct & pretty fucking Lame.
Also the biggest Fact that you are not looking @ is that This HUGE analysis and Judgment call of unsafe behavior of the DZ. Is only made in the Time Period aim.of What ? His first year or less of Training of Free-fall skills.Fact is the Guy Has 75 jumps and is setting himself up as the Looking-Eyes of what is the Proper & safe way to Run a DZ and the Basterd is barely off AFF or Static-line.
It would be a rarity if @ that level of Skydiving. That he can barely keep himself alive Skydiving while having fun at the same time. Let alone grasp what is, Safe Conduct for Operations of a Working Drop Zone.
also: The guy calls himself, Pimp-Daddy in his profile.......
.................

popsjumper:
..."Reeks of skygod, to me."
.
Far from it buddy! So lets get one thing Perfectly Clear.
I just put a Rig on and do One Jump @ a time. With the Goal, to be Alive & Smiling when I Land a Canopy. like everybody else out there doing the same thing as Me with Thousands of Jumps more than I.
I also Know that I Hold no big importance in the World of Skydiving. I only know that Skydiving is Important to Me. So Please don't be a fucking Idiot and call me a SkyGod.
For-Sure I can be a Cocky mother fucker but I have few more jumps Than Pimp-Daddy Kevin there does. I also got a few more acquired jump skills and Knowledge to back my mouth-up.
So because of this small amount of Skydive Knowledge I have acquired over the years. I have Learned NOT to throw out Half-Assed Accusations of unsafe business practices of My Drop Zone.or ANY Other Drop Zone I have ever Jumped at .Especially in Public Chat Forum open to any fucking Non-Jumping ass-hole in the world out there to Gaze at.
but Hey in my opinion It doesn't take a SkyGod to see that this guy is full of Shit.
.

[jloirsdaan 0]

Wow, pretty pissy there aren't we. Sound like someone pissed all over your cornflakes!

Since I only have 175 jumps, I'm sure you'll throw that right back up in my face. But hey, I couldn't give less a crap if you have 50000 or 5! If you see something unsafe at a DZ...speak the f**k up. So Mr. Skygod (they have a song for you in the bonfire)...since with your wisdom you think it is okay to go against the BSRs and what not....you should partner up with the DZO...you and him would make good business partners. Even though, he doesn't get as pissy and whiney as you.

So this guys full of shit huh....well maybe he should go and get everyone else that'll back him up. I just happened across this thread....without him ever telling me of the B.S. going on here by some posters. There are many jumpers out there that have left this DZ because of the student operations...and some like me....that turn a "blind" eye to his operations for the convenience of how close it is to home. I don't want to drive 3 hrs to the next DZ every weekend.

Kevin is a good guy, with genuine concern for the students. Seeing as we were both students here....and didn't know any better....its kind of unsettling to know what TINY bit of knowledge we do know...and look back at our student training and think WTF! So sense it takes 5000 or so jumps to know what is and isn't safe....I'll shut up and take in what the great and all mighty skygod says next!

Oh yeah, and Pimp Daddy there....figure out WTF a nickname means before you go being a jackass. Bonehead makes a helmet called PIMPDADDY....wow imagine that...I wonder why a skydiver would have that name.....Couldn't find a helmet that he liked that fit.....found the PIMPDADDY.....got the helmet and the name stuck..... Hes 40ish....cool ass dude.....but I think we (jumpers at the DZ) started calling him that. I'm 21...makes a little more sense right??

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[RayLosli 11]

I like you........
So tell me what you really think ?
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edit to add:
Damn girl, you were Whining so hard I thought I was reading My Own writing.
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[jloirsdaan 0]

girl.........that looks like a dude in the picture there??

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[RayLosli 11]

fuuuuuuck sorry bout that......
I threw my contacts out for the night.
.
also edit to add:
Ok I will rephrase that.
I guess I can still like you somewhat. even though you are not a Chic..... because I am secure in my Manhood. and I will restate.
Damn, Dude you were Whining so hard I thought I was reading my own Writing !
.

[mjosparky 3]

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Please don't be a fucking Idiot

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For-Sure I can be a Cocky mother fucker but I have few more jumps Than Pimp-Daddy Kevin there does.

Calling someone "a fucking idiot" is more than being cocky, it gets real close to arrogance. You need to chill or take it to SC.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[exnavykds 0]

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BSRs aren't laws

Rule: An authoritative, prescribed direction for conduct, especially one of the regulations governing procedure in a legislative body or a regulation observed by the players in a game, sport, or contest.

If we're going to call them rules (BSRs) then lets treat them as such. Otherwise, lets call them BSGs (guidelines) or BSSs (suggestions).

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In reality, most paid packers aren't riggers and aren't supervised.

Thats absolutely true. But, in this case, we're not talking about paid packers. We're talking about students with 5 or 6 jumps packing, completely unsupervised, for other students.

[RayLosli 11]

but Mommy he Started it First. He called me a SkyGod. (you can't see me but) There is a tear in my eye. because my feelings are hurt also.
I will say .."I'm sorry.".. first. If that will make you Feel Better Sparky......
.

[goose491 0]

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Calling someone "a fucking idiot" is more than being cocky, it gets real close to arrogance. You need to chill or take it to SC.

Last time I checked (I don't go there often), calling someone a "fucking idiot" isn't acceptable in SC either

Rays just going to have to chill or log off.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

<>

You are being a skygod.

You have nothing to offer but negative comments about the poster and how you feel his voice should not be heard because he doesn't have the experience you require from a speaker (read: typer)

You should just log off and leave this thread to people that give a damn about the safety of all jumpers.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[popsjumper 2]

I hope you are still reading this thread..

So far, posters have given you some positive actions that you can take..with note that some of them could be unproductive or damaging to you...
-------------

Start by asking local instructors why they are not following BSRs

Your S&TA should be spoken to

USPA BSR violations should be reported to your USPA Regional Director

FAA regulation violations should be reported to your local FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO).

Reporting violations is dangerous political ground.
Tread cautiously.

One more choice you have is to inform the dzo of your plan, send it in writing and invite him to sit and talk about it. You can help him to see better ways by actively helping him.

You can take your business elsewhere.

You have a moral responcibility to promote safe practice and ensure that those around you are not placed in unnessesary danger.

(Starting) a packing class program would be a great start

Good luck to you.

The thing that concerns me most is the impact of all this on the student-level jumpers. They may be getting into situations that they don't know yet how to prevent, control, respond to, or handle...somewhat like an incident looking for a place to happen.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[RayLosli 11]

Let me ask a few civil questions here before I run off to the job for a few hours.
you say:
" Thats absolutely true. But, in this case, we're not talking about paid packers. We're talking about students with 5 or 6 jumps packing, completely unsupervised, for other students."
.........
Is there a Ticketed Rigger on site @ this DZ ?
Do you think a DZ should have a Ticketed Rigger standing and looking over shoulder at every move when There Packers are packing all the student Rigs, Mains and Tandems Mains from there Days Work ?

Are you saying that These students are Packing Canopy's Without Monetary-$ compensation. ?
Do they Just Pack canopies for Fun or because they just need the Practice ?
Are these Student Packers that are Packing students Main's.without a Rigger looking over there Should. Getting Compensated with Jump Tickets for there Work ?
Because if they Pack for FREE-$$. Then I am going to Jump @ Your DZ...........
.

[jloirsdaan 0]

No they are usually packing the parachute they just jumped. Which in and of itself is fine. If you know what you're doing...then no, I wouldn't think a rigger needs to be standing over your shoulder. I think the FAA should go F**K itself on that rule with the packers.

However....students with 5 jump who have been shown how to pack once....shouldn't be packing their own rig without supervision. It was said earlier...that when packing....if a student "bothers" one of the instructors...he's usually told to to quite being paranoid and go finish packing. I had this happen to me, and see it continue to happen. I know several students who have dropped off because of not being comfortable packing their rig. Also...these students are expected to pack the rig after they jump. Then, if they aren't jumping again...put it back on the shelf. Then put on a first jump student again the next weekend. This has resulted in at least one malfunction very recently.

Hope that clears something up....Paid packers are GOOD!!!! Students packing with out supervision....early on BAD!!

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[billvon 2,392]

>>He called me a SkyGod.>>

>You are being a skygod.

All of you cut it out.

[skybytch 259]

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Rule: An authoritative, prescribed direction for conduct, especially one of the regulations governing procedure in a legislative body or a regulation observed by the players in a game, sport, or contest.

If we're going to call them rules (BSRs) then lets treat them as such. Otherwise, lets call them BSGs (guidelines) or BSSs (suggestions).

BSR stands for Basic Safety Requirements. Many of them are waiverable. See Section 2.1 of the Skydiver's Information Manual for details. I believe the waiverability of the BSR's is also discussed in this month's Parachutist.

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. But, in this case, we're not talking about paid packers. We're talking about students with 5 or 6 jumps packing, completely unsupervised, for other students.

Are they getting paid? If so, they're paid packers.

I used to know an 11 year old who packed student rigs. She had no jumps. She was a damn good packer. Someone who didn't know who was who at the dz might have thought she was competely unsupervised, but she wasn't - she'd been taught what to do and she knew who to talk to if she had a question or problem.

The FAR regarding who can pack a main parachute does not say that a packer must have done any skydives. It does say that if you're packing for someone other than yourself you must be a rigger or be supervised by a rigger. The definition of "supervision" is a big grey area, but from what I've seen it's most often defined as "a rigger on premises and available for questions/to provide assistance."

[skydiverjerry 0]

well said bill.

lets end this thread on a positive note, a skydiver asked a question and it was answered by lots of people with differing points of view.

it is now up to that person to make a desicion based on the advice here and his own personal experience in life.

non of use has the right to force him to accept what he has seen as acceptable nor do we have the right to force him to take our advice.

a forum is a place to offer help, provide advice listen / read learn and enjoy.

if we can not speak in a civil manner to our skydive brethren here then this sight will not have much of a future.

debate and discusion only works with the right of free speach in a civil environment. lets try to remember that.