craigbey 0 #126 November 19, 2011 Quotethe 1000+ guys are out of question anyway. There are many people with way more than 1000+ who would be happy to receive additional training and coaching. It's part of progressing as a pilot. From another thread... QuoteDo you think that the people with 1000+ jumps would be safer if they had come up in a sport with a different culture of education, training and respect for HP canopies? How do we prepare the next 1000-jump wonder? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #127 November 19, 2011 QuoteQuotethe 1000+ guys are out of question anyway. There are many people with way more than 1000+ who would be happy to receive additional training and coaching. It's part of progressing as a pilot. From another thread... QuoteDo you think that the people with 1000+ jumps would be safer if they had come up in a sport with a different culture of education, training and respect for HP canopies? How do we prepare the next 1000-jump wonder? i meant it in the context of "when a jumper has leaped more than 1000 times from a plane in flight, nobody will question their choice to jump canopy x/y", USUALLY. if you tell your PD-rep or the guy from icarus you want that velo/jvx and tell them you have 1000 jumps, they're probably not interested in hearing that they were under 280 navigators. they will, and everyone else will, assume you know what you're doing. and it doesnt matter if a guy has 100 or 1000 jumpers, if (s)he has some sort of "smart" approach, they will seek coaching/mentoring on their own. the ones that dont you should worry about.“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muffie 0 #128 November 19, 2011 Quotei only went back to and including 2008, US and europe. but still, 10 or 13 out of 250 doesnt sound too bad. also WL's ranging from 1.2 to 1.4 sound "relatively" sensible. Sorry if it wasn't clear what I wrote - About 70 of those had between 25 and 500 jumps. And another 37 had between 501 and 1,000. I only had WL for a much smaller sample of the total. So, if we say that the three that were between 1.2 and 1.4 were ok, then you still have ten lives that could have possibly been saved by some sort of more conservative canopy progression up to 500 jumps. Add to that the countless broken pelvises, femurs, etc. that don't even make it to the incidents reports... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #129 November 21, 2011 How many of those with 1k+ jumps downsized too quickly as a 25-X00 jump wonder and never learned the skills required which resulted in their incident? The point of WL limits is to help protect newer jumpers from canopies that are inappropriate, to help change the culture in the sport (it's not changing itself apparently) and to help people have some constraints to help the learn over time. To follow up on what Baksteen said: QuoteIn practice, the instructor on duty has a certain leeway in how to deal with and/or enforce those BSRs. But the BSRs dealing with wingload, canopy size and currency at least exist, so the instructor has always something to back up his/her decision if a person is making unsafe decisions as to canopy size and won't listen to reason. This is important for me, we definitely don't see someone watching every opening to make sure someone isn't pulling low but when someone pulls really low, they will get a reputation and instructors, DZOs, S&TAs will then have the option to do something with the backing of a BSR. Same goes for WLL, if you're 0.03 over the limit, who cares, unless you're doing stupid crap. If you strap on loads of weight, they'll hear about it and kick your ass. If you gain weight after your birthday and go over the limit for a couple of weeks, they should have the discretion to do something or not but at least they'll have the weight of a BSR to ground people who are being idiots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflake 0 #130 November 23, 2011 QuoteI find it interesting that someone who wants to learn how to drive learns on a home car as a rule; even when you go to racing school, you learn on something besides an F1 car. By the time someone starts driving fast cars, they generally have hundreds of hours of driving the family station wagon (or whatever). How many hours of flying canopies should you have before downsizing to something that doesn't give you any forgiveness? Even fast learners generally went through most of the grades in school, too. Wendy P. I've always thought that demonstration of canopy skills should be a part of the licensing process. I haven't thought about it beyond that. For example I've seen people with D licenses on no wind days try to land with a one "stage flare". You can see them tighten up and start to swing their legs forward for a slide or put their feet together for a PLF. My opinion is that if you have a D license you should be able to at least have the ability to judge the wind good enough to choose the proper flare for the conditions your landing in. Force people to demonstrate their mad skillz to get a B,C, or D then tie license requirements to allowable wing loading. that's my 10 cents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #131 November 23, 2011 Quotei only went back to and including 2008, US and europe. Some places in Europe already have regulations in place... So you can't really use them as an example of not needing regulations."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #132 November 23, 2011 QuoteQuotei only went back to and including 2008, US and europe. Some places in Europe already have regulations in place... So you can't really use them as an example of not needing regulations. sweden (norway?) and the netzerlands do; the rest not to the best of my knowledge..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #133 November 23, 2011 Quotesweden (norway?) and the netzerlands do; the rest not to the best of my knowledge.. Then to have accurate data, they need to be excluded."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muffie 0 #134 November 23, 2011 QuoteQuotesweden (norway?) and the netzerlands do; the rest not to the best of my knowledge.. Then to have accurate data, they need to be excluded. They tend to be simply due to the lack of relevant incidents (at least that are listed on this site). Sweden had a malfunction fatality this year, but the last one I have for there was in 2005 which involved a landing fatality possibly on a Katana 120. And they do use a downsizing chart very similar to Brian Germaine's. A Swedish friend and I compared the two one day when we bored. Netherlands had a student canopy collision in 2010, a landing fatality in 2008 (experienced visiting jumper on a Velo at a competition), and a landing fatality in 2005 and one in 2004. 2004 was an off landing. No info. on the 2005 incident. One of the problems with cutting out information by location is that jumpers move around. I can personally think of at least ten people I knew from NZ who were jumping in Sweden, Germany, Spain and the U.S. at various points this year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
holie 0 #135 November 24, 2011 ... France also ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
