DSE 3 #176 November 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Bottom line, if you want the award (which is too easy to reach, IMO), then you gotta do the work. Well, if it were an award or a boy scout merit badge, I'd agree with you. However, it isn't. It's a LICENSE. Different thing altogether. Re-read. Again. 1000 Jump Wings is an AWARD. Not a license. And if you read even more carefully through this miasmatic thread, you'll find I don't agree with requiring a D license to receive the 1000 jump wings award. I do agree with night jumps being required for the D license. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ghost47 18 #177 November 27, 2011 QuoteOnce again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. But, see, even if what you're saying is true, that you can accidentally or unexpectedly be in a night jump, all that line of reasoning supports is an argument for why night jumps should be required before you get on sunset loads. It doesn't support an argument for why night jumps should be required for D licenses. Because D licenses and sunset loads have no connection -- you can get on a sunset load without a D license. Hell, you can get on a sunset load without a license, period. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #178 November 27, 2011 >there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting >even close to night conditions. It's happened to me. >Also, the jumpers do not have to jump and shouldn't if not comfortable. Just like if >they are not comfortable doing a jump an hour after sunset they shouldn't. Agreed 100%. >but others are being penalized for a requirement that has no bearing on how skilled >or experienced they are. No one is being penalized for not jumping at night. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #179 November 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteOnce again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. But, see, even if what you're saying is true, that you can accidentally or unexpectedly be in a night jump, all that line of reasoning supports is an argument for why night jumps should be required before you get on sunset loads. It doesn't support an argument for why night jumps should be required for D licenses. Because D licenses and sunset loads have no connection -- you can get on a sunset load without a D license. Hell, you can get on a sunset load without a license, period. Oh I agree, making it an earlier requirement wouldn't be a problem except for those that don't want to do it. The example I gave is in no way the only reason a skydiver should qualify themselves for night jumps... various other reasons have been given up-thread. I was showing that it is possible to be on a load that finds itself needing to jump in non-daylight conditions. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #180 November 27, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Bottom line, if you want the award (which is too easy to reach, IMO), then you gotta do the work. Well, if it were an award or a boy scout merit badge, I'd agree with you. However, it isn't. It's a LICENSE. Different thing altogether. And if you want an Achievement award, you have to do 2 night jumps. Exactly. But a LICENSE is not an AWARD. Quote 1000-jump wings? Gotta have the D. I fail to see the relevancy. You want a Performance award? USPA mentions no license requirement. How about an award for those who complete all specialty jumps? Ummmm....one might add the requirement of "successfully". Another stupid part of the requirement. You can break both femurs on the first night jump and land in a tree and break your back on the second, and STILL qualify.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #181 November 27, 2011 Quote>there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting >even close to night conditions. It's happened to me. Irrelevant, since (a) there is no requirement to have a "D", or to have had night jump training, in order to get on a sunset load, and (b) even if you are holding for 45 minutes as it gets darker and darker, there is no compulsion to exit the plane after sunset. You are just perpetuating a red herring argument.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #182 November 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. But, see, even if what you're saying is true, that you can accidentally or unexpectedly be in a night jump, all that line of reasoning supports is an argument for why night jumps should be required before you get on sunset loads. It doesn't support an argument for why night jumps should be required for D licenses. Because D licenses and sunset loads have no connection -- you can get on a sunset load without a D license. Hell, you can get on a sunset load without a license, period. Oh I agree, making it an earlier requirement wouldn't be a problem except for those that don't want to do it. The example I gave is in no way the only reason a skydiver should qualify themselves for night jumps... various other reasons have been given up-thread. I was showing that it is possible to be on a load that finds itself needing to jump in non-daylight conditions. No load NEEDS to jump after sunset. Riding the plane down is always an option.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #183 November 27, 2011 Quote"experience" is very important but I do not need to make a base jump or an exit from 1k to prepare me in the event that I have to get out then. That seems to be more relevant bc that scenario is not elective. Student training DOES require clear and pulls, which is exactly what you're talking about here. Getting out at an actual low altitude is not what's important, it's the ability to exit stable immediately and get a chute out very quickly. If you can do that, then you can take care of yourself during an actual low altitude aircraft exit emergency. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #184 November 27, 2011 Quoteothers are being penalized for a requirement that has no bearing on how skilled or experienced they are. It is not a "penalty" to require a night jump to be licensed as an expert parachutist. It is not a "penalty" to require knowledge of blood to be licensed as a physician. It is not a "penalty" to require good health to be licensed as an airline pilot. It is not a "penalty" to require college degrees to be licensed as university professors. It's not about penalizing people who haven't done it, it's about ensuring that those who are deemed experts have a wide variety of experiences and skills, necessary to perform the duties expected of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #185 November 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. But, see, even if what you're saying is true, that you can accidentally or unexpectedly be in a night jump, all that line of reasoning supports is an argument for why night jumps should be required before you get on sunset loads. It doesn't support an argument for why night jumps should be required for D licenses. Because D licenses and sunset loads have no connection -- you can get on a sunset load without a D license. Hell, you can get on a sunset load without a license, period. Oh I agree, making it an earlier requirement wouldn't be a problem except for those that don't want to do it. The example I gave is in no way the only reason a skydiver should qualify themselves for night jumps... various other reasons have been given up-thread. I was showing that it is possible to be on a load that finds itself needing to jump in non-daylight conditions. No load NEEDS to jump after sunset. Riding the plane down is always an option. No one NEEDS to Skydive at all...It's a choice Riding an old, fully loaded airplane down to land in the dark on a short dirt strip is also a choice...just not a real smart one. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aerialfx 0 #186 November 27, 2011 QuoteSo that your first night jump isn't on a demo. LOL funny - if it wasn't so true...--------------------------------- www.skydiverustenburg.co.za www.skydiveqatar.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #187 November 28, 2011 Quote If you can't or won't jump at night for whatever reason then don't, just don't get the D or get the waiver 'almost' a D...but don't try to dumb down the requirement for everyone. Still on that? Bump the needle, your record's stuck and you're missing a lot of the music.. Quote Why 'fix it' if it ain't broke? Not broke....LOLOL I wonder...did you ask that question to the powers that be when they "fixed" the D by taking away the water jump? Quote I'll type slower for ya this time...It can happen and does' Simply because people make those choices. Your situation was not a mandatory exit one. Quote Once again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. Well, Jim...condescending is not the way to go here...or anywhere. Sorry to see that you are on a one-trick pony here.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #188 November 28, 2011 Quote No one is being penalized for not jumping at night. You have a way with words, Denied would have been a better choice for his statement, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #189 November 28, 2011 Well, Jim...condescending is not the way to go here...or anywhere. Sorry to see that you are on a one-trick pony here. Yeah I know, I was getting into a circular argument...I should know better! It's just a difference of opinion, I see the reasoning for it...others do not. Weird how it goes, doing things like night jumps I as an older jumper see as easy, fun & useful...other think is dangerous and unnecessary. And things like swooping that I see as dangerous & unnecessary they take for granted as a common part of the sport. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #190 November 28, 2011 QuoteHave you ever wondered why the youngsters don't listen and learn from some of you guys? Because a lot of jumpers "shop" for the answer they want. I had an hour long discussion with a guy with 650 jumps and was doing down wind landings on a 1.9 loaded canopy in 20 MPH winds. He had never done a DW landing in 10 MPH, just jumped to 20..... He just would no accept that skipping the 5, 10,15, MPH DW landing and going right to the 20 was a bad idea. I spent about an hour trying to explain it.... and that was after he was handed off to me from someone else that tried to explain it for at least 30 mins. I think this night jump issue is the same. There are some good reasons why it is a requirement IMO... But in the end it *IS* a requirement."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #191 November 28, 2011 QuoteWell, if it were an award or a boy scout merit badge, I'd agree with you. However, it isn't. It's a LICENSE. Different thing altogether. Parallel parking is required to get a drivers license in most States. It is also something that I have rarely had to do, it is also something that can be avoided in most cases.... I guess we can just remove that as well right? I have a pilots license... You know the ONLY time I have flown at night? Yep, to meet the requirements to get my LICENSE. It is more dangerous than flying during the day, and flying at night can pretty much easily be avoided. You going to claim that night flying should be removed from the pilot training curriculum? The parallel parking from the drivers license? The drivers LICENSE is not an award. The pilots LICENSE is not an award. The "D" LICENSE is not an award."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #192 November 28, 2011 Quotethere is no way anyone would be on hold for that long and bam it's an hour after sunset. An hour? No... But as dark out that it could be considered a night jump based on CONDITIONS not some arbitrary number? YES. And I have said it has happened to me twice. Others have said it has happened to them as well."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #193 November 28, 2011 >>It's happened to me. >Irrelevant . . . You can call it whatever you like. It has indeed happened to me and to a great many other people. Thus the claim that "there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions" is false. And when it did happen to me I was glad I had gotten night jump training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 100 #194 November 28, 2011 Things happen. I've been in a 206 a mile out to sea with an offshore wind when we had an engine failure at 6 grand, with 6 jumpers on board. The glide ratio was that of a brick... The water drills would have been handy, but fortunately the pilot got the engine started at 2 grand. We were just about to leave him to it at that point..... That day we had bad luck, followed by good luck. Over the course of a long jump career, unplanned things are gonna happen. Its nice to be able to draw on practical experience at that point.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SStewart 13 #195 November 28, 2011 Back to the OP, there is absolutely no reason to jump at night. Unless you want a D license. We never should have eliminated the water jump requirement. That was a mistake. The current water jump training is a joke. For a D license you should have to make 10 night jumps and 10 intentional water jumps. The coach rating was a mistake, we should have kept the Jumpmaster rating. We should not have made things easier, we should have made them tougher, harder, and more challenging. A D license means you are an expert skydiver. It does not mean you have to do CRW, Wingsuit, skysurf, base, Mr. Bill, or what ever. You only need a C to be an AFF instructor. If you want to be a tandem instructor or you want to do pro rated demos or you want to be an S&TA then you must have a D license which means you have to be able to jump at night. Period. How can you teach something if you can not do it yourself? If you want to fly an airplane you can not get a "daytime only" pilots license, It does not work that way. Why should we be any different? Personally I don't much care for jumping at night, my eyesight is fading as I age and flaring HP canopies at night is a bit tricky. It is a choice, I don't have to do it. Keep this in mind, you are the captain of your own boat.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BobMoore 0 #196 November 28, 2011 QuoteIf you want to fly an airplane you can not get a "daytime only" pilots license, It does not work that way. Why should we be any different? Actually it does work that way. If you get a Sport Pilot license you are restricted to "daytime only" flying, along with a few other restrictions. If you have a normal unrestricted pilots license but don't have a current medical you can fly a Light Sport aircraft but must fly in the "daytime only", along with a few other restrictions."For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC1 0 #197 November 28, 2011 Quote>>It's happened to me. >Irrelevant . . . You can call it whatever you like. It has indeed happened to me and to a great many other people. Thus the claim that "there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions" is false. And when it did happen to me I was glad I had gotten night jump training. I feel sorry for all those A licensed jumpers being made to get on sunset loads without any night jump training. If it wasn't for their mad skillz, they'd be screwed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SStewart 13 #198 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf you want to fly an airplane you can not get a "daytime only" pilots license, It does not work that way. Why should we be any different? Actually it does work that way. If you get a Sport Pilot license you are restricted to "daytime only" flying, along with a few other restrictions. If you have a normal unrestricted pilots license but don't have a current medical you can fly a Light Sport aircraft but must fly in the "daytime only", along with a few other restrictions. Ok, in our sport that would be called a C licenseOnward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #199 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf you want to fly an airplane you can not get a "daytime only" pilots license, It does not work that way. Why should we be any different? Actually it does work that way. If you get a Sport Pilot license you are restricted to "daytime only" flying, along with a few other restrictions. If you have a normal unrestricted pilots license but don't have a current medical you can fly a Light Sport aircraft but must fly in the "daytime only", along with a few other restrictions. Same thing...if you want a 'normal unrestricted'' D license you do the requirements. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #200 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you want to fly an airplane you can not get a "daytime only" pilots license, It does not work that way. Why should we be any different? Actually it does work that way. If you get a Sport Pilot license you are restricted to "daytime only" flying, along with a few other restrictions. If you have a normal unrestricted pilots license but don't have a current medical you can fly a Light Sport aircraft but must fly in the "daytime only", along with a few other restrictions. Same thing...if you want a 'normal unrestricted'' D license you do the requirements. No-one disputes that. The discussion is about the relevance of the requirements, and comparison with training that isn't part of the requirements for a LICENSE but which many of us think is more relevant than making 2 night jumps with no criterion for success except surviving. Again, it is not a merit badge, it is a LICENSE.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. 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ghost47 18 #177 November 27, 2011 QuoteOnce again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. But, see, even if what you're saying is true, that you can accidentally or unexpectedly be in a night jump, all that line of reasoning supports is an argument for why night jumps should be required before you get on sunset loads. It doesn't support an argument for why night jumps should be required for D licenses. Because D licenses and sunset loads have no connection -- you can get on a sunset load without a D license. Hell, you can get on a sunset load without a license, period. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #178 November 27, 2011 >there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting >even close to night conditions. It's happened to me. >Also, the jumpers do not have to jump and shouldn't if not comfortable. Just like if >they are not comfortable doing a jump an hour after sunset they shouldn't. Agreed 100%. >but others are being penalized for a requirement that has no bearing on how skilled >or experienced they are. No one is being penalized for not jumping at night. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #179 November 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteOnce again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. But, see, even if what you're saying is true, that you can accidentally or unexpectedly be in a night jump, all that line of reasoning supports is an argument for why night jumps should be required before you get on sunset loads. It doesn't support an argument for why night jumps should be required for D licenses. Because D licenses and sunset loads have no connection -- you can get on a sunset load without a D license. Hell, you can get on a sunset load without a license, period. Oh I agree, making it an earlier requirement wouldn't be a problem except for those that don't want to do it. The example I gave is in no way the only reason a skydiver should qualify themselves for night jumps... various other reasons have been given up-thread. I was showing that it is possible to be on a load that finds itself needing to jump in non-daylight conditions. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #180 November 27, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Bottom line, if you want the award (which is too easy to reach, IMO), then you gotta do the work. Well, if it were an award or a boy scout merit badge, I'd agree with you. However, it isn't. It's a LICENSE. Different thing altogether. And if you want an Achievement award, you have to do 2 night jumps. Exactly. But a LICENSE is not an AWARD. Quote 1000-jump wings? Gotta have the D. I fail to see the relevancy. You want a Performance award? USPA mentions no license requirement. How about an award for those who complete all specialty jumps? Ummmm....one might add the requirement of "successfully". Another stupid part of the requirement. You can break both femurs on the first night jump and land in a tree and break your back on the second, and STILL qualify.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #181 November 27, 2011 Quote>there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting >even close to night conditions. It's happened to me. Irrelevant, since (a) there is no requirement to have a "D", or to have had night jump training, in order to get on a sunset load, and (b) even if you are holding for 45 minutes as it gets darker and darker, there is no compulsion to exit the plane after sunset. You are just perpetuating a red herring argument.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #182 November 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. But, see, even if what you're saying is true, that you can accidentally or unexpectedly be in a night jump, all that line of reasoning supports is an argument for why night jumps should be required before you get on sunset loads. It doesn't support an argument for why night jumps should be required for D licenses. Because D licenses and sunset loads have no connection -- you can get on a sunset load without a D license. Hell, you can get on a sunset load without a license, period. Oh I agree, making it an earlier requirement wouldn't be a problem except for those that don't want to do it. The example I gave is in no way the only reason a skydiver should qualify themselves for night jumps... various other reasons have been given up-thread. I was showing that it is possible to be on a load that finds itself needing to jump in non-daylight conditions. No load NEEDS to jump after sunset. Riding the plane down is always an option.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #183 November 27, 2011 Quote"experience" is very important but I do not need to make a base jump or an exit from 1k to prepare me in the event that I have to get out then. That seems to be more relevant bc that scenario is not elective. Student training DOES require clear and pulls, which is exactly what you're talking about here. Getting out at an actual low altitude is not what's important, it's the ability to exit stable immediately and get a chute out very quickly. If you can do that, then you can take care of yourself during an actual low altitude aircraft exit emergency. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #184 November 27, 2011 Quoteothers are being penalized for a requirement that has no bearing on how skilled or experienced they are. It is not a "penalty" to require a night jump to be licensed as an expert parachutist. It is not a "penalty" to require knowledge of blood to be licensed as a physician. It is not a "penalty" to require good health to be licensed as an airline pilot. It is not a "penalty" to require college degrees to be licensed as university professors. It's not about penalizing people who haven't done it, it's about ensuring that those who are deemed experts have a wide variety of experiences and skills, necessary to perform the duties expected of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #185 November 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. But, see, even if what you're saying is true, that you can accidentally or unexpectedly be in a night jump, all that line of reasoning supports is an argument for why night jumps should be required before you get on sunset loads. It doesn't support an argument for why night jumps should be required for D licenses. Because D licenses and sunset loads have no connection -- you can get on a sunset load without a D license. Hell, you can get on a sunset load without a license, period. Oh I agree, making it an earlier requirement wouldn't be a problem except for those that don't want to do it. The example I gave is in no way the only reason a skydiver should qualify themselves for night jumps... various other reasons have been given up-thread. I was showing that it is possible to be on a load that finds itself needing to jump in non-daylight conditions. No load NEEDS to jump after sunset. Riding the plane down is always an option. No one NEEDS to Skydive at all...It's a choice Riding an old, fully loaded airplane down to land in the dark on a short dirt strip is also a choice...just not a real smart one. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aerialfx 0 #186 November 27, 2011 QuoteSo that your first night jump isn't on a demo. LOL funny - if it wasn't so true...--------------------------------- www.skydiverustenburg.co.za www.skydiveqatar.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #187 November 28, 2011 Quote If you can't or won't jump at night for whatever reason then don't, just don't get the D or get the waiver 'almost' a D...but don't try to dumb down the requirement for everyone. Still on that? Bump the needle, your record's stuck and you're missing a lot of the music.. Quote Why 'fix it' if it ain't broke? Not broke....LOLOL I wonder...did you ask that question to the powers that be when they "fixed" the D by taking away the water jump? Quote I'll type slower for ya this time...It can happen and does' Simply because people make those choices. Your situation was not a mandatory exit one. Quote Once again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. Well, Jim...condescending is not the way to go here...or anywhere. Sorry to see that you are on a one-trick pony here.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #188 November 28, 2011 Quote No one is being penalized for not jumping at night. You have a way with words, Denied would have been a better choice for his statement, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #189 November 28, 2011 Well, Jim...condescending is not the way to go here...or anywhere. Sorry to see that you are on a one-trick pony here. Yeah I know, I was getting into a circular argument...I should know better! It's just a difference of opinion, I see the reasoning for it...others do not. Weird how it goes, doing things like night jumps I as an older jumper see as easy, fun & useful...other think is dangerous and unnecessary. And things like swooping that I see as dangerous & unnecessary they take for granted as a common part of the sport. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #190 November 28, 2011 QuoteHave you ever wondered why the youngsters don't listen and learn from some of you guys? Because a lot of jumpers "shop" for the answer they want. I had an hour long discussion with a guy with 650 jumps and was doing down wind landings on a 1.9 loaded canopy in 20 MPH winds. He had never done a DW landing in 10 MPH, just jumped to 20..... He just would no accept that skipping the 5, 10,15, MPH DW landing and going right to the 20 was a bad idea. I spent about an hour trying to explain it.... and that was after he was handed off to me from someone else that tried to explain it for at least 30 mins. I think this night jump issue is the same. There are some good reasons why it is a requirement IMO... But in the end it *IS* a requirement."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #191 November 28, 2011 QuoteWell, if it were an award or a boy scout merit badge, I'd agree with you. However, it isn't. It's a LICENSE. Different thing altogether. Parallel parking is required to get a drivers license in most States. It is also something that I have rarely had to do, it is also something that can be avoided in most cases.... I guess we can just remove that as well right? I have a pilots license... You know the ONLY time I have flown at night? Yep, to meet the requirements to get my LICENSE. It is more dangerous than flying during the day, and flying at night can pretty much easily be avoided. You going to claim that night flying should be removed from the pilot training curriculum? The parallel parking from the drivers license? The drivers LICENSE is not an award. The pilots LICENSE is not an award. The "D" LICENSE is not an award."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #192 November 28, 2011 Quotethere is no way anyone would be on hold for that long and bam it's an hour after sunset. An hour? No... But as dark out that it could be considered a night jump based on CONDITIONS not some arbitrary number? YES. And I have said it has happened to me twice. Others have said it has happened to them as well."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #193 November 28, 2011 >>It's happened to me. >Irrelevant . . . You can call it whatever you like. It has indeed happened to me and to a great many other people. Thus the claim that "there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions" is false. And when it did happen to me I was glad I had gotten night jump training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #194 November 28, 2011 Things happen. I've been in a 206 a mile out to sea with an offshore wind when we had an engine failure at 6 grand, with 6 jumpers on board. The glide ratio was that of a brick... The water drills would have been handy, but fortunately the pilot got the engine started at 2 grand. We were just about to leave him to it at that point..... That day we had bad luck, followed by good luck. Over the course of a long jump career, unplanned things are gonna happen. Its nice to be able to draw on practical experience at that point.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #195 November 28, 2011 Back to the OP, there is absolutely no reason to jump at night. Unless you want a D license. We never should have eliminated the water jump requirement. That was a mistake. The current water jump training is a joke. For a D license you should have to make 10 night jumps and 10 intentional water jumps. The coach rating was a mistake, we should have kept the Jumpmaster rating. We should not have made things easier, we should have made them tougher, harder, and more challenging. A D license means you are an expert skydiver. It does not mean you have to do CRW, Wingsuit, skysurf, base, Mr. Bill, or what ever. You only need a C to be an AFF instructor. If you want to be a tandem instructor or you want to do pro rated demos or you want to be an S&TA then you must have a D license which means you have to be able to jump at night. Period. How can you teach something if you can not do it yourself? If you want to fly an airplane you can not get a "daytime only" pilots license, It does not work that way. Why should we be any different? Personally I don't much care for jumping at night, my eyesight is fading as I age and flaring HP canopies at night is a bit tricky. It is a choice, I don't have to do it. Keep this in mind, you are the captain of your own boat.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobMoore 0 #196 November 28, 2011 QuoteIf you want to fly an airplane you can not get a "daytime only" pilots license, It does not work that way. Why should we be any different? Actually it does work that way. If you get a Sport Pilot license you are restricted to "daytime only" flying, along with a few other restrictions. If you have a normal unrestricted pilots license but don't have a current medical you can fly a Light Sport aircraft but must fly in the "daytime only", along with a few other restrictions."For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC1 0 #197 November 28, 2011 Quote>>It's happened to me. >Irrelevant . . . You can call it whatever you like. It has indeed happened to me and to a great many other people. Thus the claim that "there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions" is false. And when it did happen to me I was glad I had gotten night jump training. I feel sorry for all those A licensed jumpers being made to get on sunset loads without any night jump training. If it wasn't for their mad skillz, they'd be screwed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #198 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf you want to fly an airplane you can not get a "daytime only" pilots license, It does not work that way. Why should we be any different? Actually it does work that way. If you get a Sport Pilot license you are restricted to "daytime only" flying, along with a few other restrictions. If you have a normal unrestricted pilots license but don't have a current medical you can fly a Light Sport aircraft but must fly in the "daytime only", along with a few other restrictions. Ok, in our sport that would be called a C licenseOnward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #199 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf you want to fly an airplane you can not get a "daytime only" pilots license, It does not work that way. Why should we be any different? Actually it does work that way. If you get a Sport Pilot license you are restricted to "daytime only" flying, along with a few other restrictions. If you have a normal unrestricted pilots license but don't have a current medical you can fly a Light Sport aircraft but must fly in the "daytime only", along with a few other restrictions. Same thing...if you want a 'normal unrestricted'' D license you do the requirements. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #200 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you want to fly an airplane you can not get a "daytime only" pilots license, It does not work that way. Why should we be any different? Actually it does work that way. If you get a Sport Pilot license you are restricted to "daytime only" flying, along with a few other restrictions. If you have a normal unrestricted pilots license but don't have a current medical you can fly a Light Sport aircraft but must fly in the "daytime only", along with a few other restrictions. Same thing...if you want a 'normal unrestricted'' D license you do the requirements. No-one disputes that. The discussion is about the relevance of the requirements, and comparison with training that isn't part of the requirements for a LICENSE but which many of us think is more relevant than making 2 night jumps with no criterion for success except surviving. Again, it is not a merit badge, it is a LICENSE.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
