3mpire 0 #51 November 22, 2011 QuoteBack to the topic at hand, I do think the night jumps for the D is more for the old timers sticking it to the youngins cause they've had to do it when they got their D 20 years ago. Maybe I'm dense, but what is the problem with night jumps to begin with? Why _wouldn't_ you want to do them? I understand from the thread all the issues about whether it is relevant, etc., which is questioning their value, but is it just superfluous in the minds of those who oppose, or is there something about the night jump itself that is so bad? Depth perception was listed, but what else? I didn't find it to be that big of a deal so I guess I'm not understanding the passion on the "aginnit" side". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #52 November 22, 2011 I'm not against them, I just think if they're saying that they should be required, that they should be required sooner than a D-license. Low time jumpers are more likely to get on the sunset/night load not knowing what they're getting into."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #53 November 22, 2011 Personally, i think that licenses should be an expression of merit and not seniority. Maybe a combination of the two but right now there's way to much emphasis on jump numbers and not enough emphasis on skill. If they turned my D into a C and there was a really serious test of skill to get the D, I'd be down for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #54 November 22, 2011 >"We know you're going to be stupid and flaunt all sensibilities and violate rules and >regulations so let's require you to do it...hopefully before you flaunt and violate." Yep. Sorta like skid-pad training in advanced driver's courses. "We know you're going to be a moron and drive too fast for conditions, so we might as well teach you how to recover from your mistakes." A good idea, IMO. >And then they chose to ignore the possibility of inadvertent water landings. They actually require live training for water landings. Even though you might drown! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #55 November 22, 2011 >Did this DZ limit sunset loads to D-licensed people (i.e. those who had already done >two night jumps)? No, it actually limited it to people who would probably be OK jumping after dark. But this was a small DZ where people knew each other. >First, this ignores airplane emergencies. So you CAN'T always avoid accuracy and >water landings (assuming there is actually water nearby) by checking the spot and >knowing the winds. Good point. Sometimes shit happens - and when it does, you best have all the training you can get. It might save your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manseman 0 #56 November 22, 2011 Quote Maybe I'm dense, but what is the problem with night jumps to begin with? Why _wouldn't_ you want to do them? Because of the obviously increased risk of ending up dead or injured? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #57 November 22, 2011 QuoteBecause of the obviously increased risk of ending up dead or injured? Absolutely but, failing some kind of eye condition that has been mentioned before, I think people should do them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,121 #58 November 22, 2011 I think it has to do a lot with faster canopies, and with the changing demographics of skydiving (i.e. staying at the DZ at the end of jumping is something you decide to do, not something you automatically do, as well as being older). Back when I started, night jumps were more common. I did them whenever possible, but now that I'm in my 50's and jumping a smaller, faster canopy that requires a much more precise flare, I don't do them any more. I really, really loved night jumps; if I were still jumping something at a less than 1lb/sq ft (or the round I did my first few with) I'd probably still do them. But if I were still jumping a round, I might not still be jumping -- they did, in fact, land harder. I stood up the vast majority of my round jumps, but older jumpers were less common then. Partly because jumping was less common, and partly because openings and landings were harder. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #59 November 22, 2011 I just want to say this about night jumps: Becoming one with the universe is as simple as making a few night jumps on a clear night. (something I discovered after going 10 years between night jumps. I forgot how fun they were because I was worried about the high performance parachute) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #60 November 22, 2011 If you don't want to be a TI or PRO, there is no need to have a D. So why bitch about it?... I disagree with the D license being required for jumpwings, FWIW. Number of jumps is not relevant to skillset... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Reasonable: Keep the night jump requirement to earn a "D." Unreasonable: Requiring the "D" before one can earn a PRO or an instructor rating. The skill sets necessary for the "D" are irrelevant. In one can demonstrate the skills necessary to do accuracy jumps or work with students, one should be able to earn the ratings REGARDLESS of which license one may hold. Even with my "A" license I can consistently land closer to a target than can many people running loose with "D's." Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #61 November 22, 2011 Quote Yes Pops, I would. Assuming I wanted that license type, if USPA required me to do a CRW jump, or a raft dive, or a Mr. Bill or whatever silly specialty jump then I Would do it as a condition of earning the license. OK...I worded it wrong. Of course we'd do it regardless of what they required. I should have said "liked it" or "approved of it". I know where you are coming from.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #62 November 22, 2011 Quote Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the D-license (when it was 200 jumps) referred to as an "Expert License?" "Back in the day" is not what we are dealing with here. Quote Read part 105. Wording is specific to "Master" which is also equivalent of "expert." Well, semantics on titles...OK. Quote Gotta match? or do you need my lighter? OK...let's not bring smoke jumps into the picture. Quote If you don't want to be a TI or PRO, there is no need to have a D. There's one of the major rubs. Neither rating forces anyone to do a night jump. NO need for the requirement for either rating. It all very simple. A simple endorsement next to your rating. Have a Pro rating and no NJ endorsement and want to do a NJ demo? No NJ for you as a Pro! Have a TI rating and no NJ endorsement and want to do a NJ with a student? No NJ for you as a TI! Quote If you don't wanna earn it, then don't cry around about it. Unbelievable that you would post that. Quote If nothing else, it gives people something to argue about on wet rainiy nights. It ain't a perfect world, and USPA will always have something for folks to bitch about (pokes self in eye). Good point.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #63 November 22, 2011 I always loved the night swoops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #64 November 22, 2011 QuoteMaybe I'm dense, but what is the problem with night jumps to begin with? Why _wouldn't_ you want to do them? This issue is not whether anyone wants to do them. The question is how or why is that skill a necessary requirement for someone who wants a TI or Pro rating but has no intention of ever doing night jumps. Night jumps are an optional activity just like wingsuiting.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #65 November 22, 2011 Quote Night jumps are an optional activity just like wingsuiting. night wingsuiting scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #66 November 22, 2011 Quote Quote Night jumps are an optional activity just like wingsuiting. night wingsuiting Yeah! Night jumps are pure magic, even better in a wingsuit. I see the valid reasons against requiring them for the D, but without that requirement, how many night jumps would happen? The fact that it is required is the only reason those planes are flying at all. Most of us would never do them, or even have a chance to. Thanks USPA for getting me up there for some of the best jumps ever!But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #67 November 22, 2011 And that right there is probably the most compelling argument FOR keeping the requirement - had it not been for the requirement I doubt I would ever have even been presented with the opportunity for a night jump - and thus would have missed out on one of the most fun, most exhilarating jumps I have done to date! As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #68 November 22, 2011 Picking on you Andy... If you remove the night jumps from a D, then the requirements for getting a D are pretty insignificant compared to previous licenses. At the moment it only requires you to learn the following 3 things. 500 jumps with 3 hours freefall time 2 night jumps Pass the written test Don't you feel that if the D license is revisited the requirements should go up? I wouldn't mind seeing a few requirements added - including a live water jump. I do agree that people shouldn't be bared from pro ratings, jump wings and awards without the D. I'll defer to you guys on the tandem rating (but of course AFF-I doesn't need it).Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #69 November 22, 2011 Yeah! Wingsuit BASE proximity with sunglasses at night and at least four GoPros. Why havn't you all thought of that before? But what is a night jump? When the weather forecast says the sun sets? When the sun is below the horizon? Or when it's dark? And in that case how dark? I know the swedish rules has a very odd definition of night jumps, but what are the USPAs definition of night? Just as a sidenote. I would love to make a night jump. And what would make it even cooler would be to have fireworks beeing shot below while under canopy. It might sound crazy, but I have actually looked at it and most fireworks only go 3-400 feet up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #70 November 22, 2011 Quote Yeah! Wingsuit BASE proximity with sunglasses at night and at least four GoPros. Why havn't you all thought of that before? But what is a night jump? When the weather forecast says the sun sets? When the sun is below the horizon? Or when it's dark? And in that case how dark? I know the swedish rules has a very odd definition of night jumps, but what are the USPAs definition of night? Just as a sidenote. I would love to make a night jump. And what would make it even cooler would be to have fireworks beeing shot below while under canopy. It might sound crazy, but I have actually looked at it and most fireworks only go 3-400 feet up. SIM Sec 6.4: 4. To maintain safety and comply with FAA Regulations, any jumps between sunset and sunrise are considered as night jumps. 5. Night jumps to meet license requirements and to establish world records must take place between one hour after official sunset and one hour before official sunrise It is very common all over the USA that loads are in the air post-sunset. Quite different from Sweden.Flying over a fireworks show is pretty spectacular, but you can't really watch. It destroys your night vision. That's also why we're cautious with lights in the aircraft prior to night jumps; vision may be compromised. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #71 November 22, 2011 That was a very simple explenation. Why does our have to be so hard? Quote Darkness is a state that is considered to exist during the time between sunset and sunrise when the due to reduced daylight a prominent unlit objects are not clearly visible on distance of 8 km Clear as mud huh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #72 November 22, 2011 Quote Quote Night jumps are an optional activity just like wingsuiting. night wingsuiting Well, yes...you have bigger balls than I do. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #73 November 22, 2011 QuotePicking on you Andy... If you remove the night jumps from a D, then the requirements for getting a D are pretty insignificant compared to previous licenses. At the moment it only requires you to learn the following 3 things. 500 jumps with 3 hours freefall time 2 night jumps Pass the written test Don't you feel that if the D license is revisited the requirements should go up? I wouldn't mind seeing a few requirements added - including a live water jump. Indeed I do! I would never argue against more canopy control. As far as water jumps, aws I've said many times before, that makes more sense to me than night jumps. QuoteI do agree that people shouldn't be bared from pro ratings, jump wings and awards without the D. I'll defer to you guys on the tandem rating (but of course AFF-I doesn't need it). The awards! Yes, indeed. That got skipped in this thread...good catch.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 18 #74 November 22, 2011 Hi Diesel, Why?? If you have to ask, don't bother!! 'Made a bunch of night jumps, good times. 'Gotta say, one in particular was "The One!!" 'Freak Brothers '84, Sat night 16 way, 2 points, "You Shoulda Been There!!" Clear night, moon, at the top floor looking down at about 9 or 10 grand was a whisp of a veil of a cloud if you could call it that. The only way you knew it was there was the light of the moon reflecting off the top, but you could clearly see thru it!! 15 other jumpers besides myself and Mike Seismore the potogralpher plus the pilot saw it. All I can say is Why Jump at night?? Glad I did. If you don't want to then don't. You won't be missed.SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #75 November 22, 2011 Quote That was a very simple explenation. Why does our have to be so hard? Quote Darkness is a state that is considered to exist during the time between sunset and sunrise when the due to reduced daylight a prominent unlit objects are not clearly visible on distance of 8 km Clear as mud huh? Sunset is when the sun itself is not directly visible when it falls below the horizon. Now, to confuse things....there's nothing in there that says what altitude the observer has to be at the time of observance. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
