Why jump at night?

[popsjumper 2]

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I'm just asking why is it a requirement? Specifically, to get ratings that have nothing to do with night jumping. I still haven't seen a good answer yet.

I haven't seen a good answer either.

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Then neither of you are reading all the posts.

Well, Matt. The operative word is "good".
Ambiguous? Yes. YMMV.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Then why not make, for example, HALO jumps a requirement of the D license? Or wingsuit proficiency? Where's the dividing line between sensible and arbitrary?

Our normal jumps are "HALO". I presume you mean high-alititude.

The dividing line should be between things that any skydiver can experience at some time in the normal course of events, versus specialized things that would only happen if you chose to make it happen.

Sunset loads can become night jumps, water landings can happen from bad spots, and accuracy can become necessary if you're blown off-airport by winds. So to be an expert, you should know how to deal with those things. On the other hand, no one accidentally ends up in a wingsuit or at 20,000 feet - they had to plan for that to happen in advance, so there are different paths to take to become versed in those subjects.

True but since when does a jump that is just barely after sunset have the same darkness level that a "night jump" has. They are not even close. I never understood the argument really? You cannot take off and suddenly find yourself doing a night jump classified by the SIM. I enjoy doing a night jump but it is not even close to doing a jump that is just as the sun is setting or right after. A true night jump is a choice just like the other jumps mentioned. I do not think it should be required.
JMHO

Well, I read earlier that the USPA requirements for a night jump are that it is carried out between the hours of sunset and sunrise. I don't know if this is correct.

If it is, then at my position on the Earth (about 50 miles north of London), you have about 30 minutes between sunset and the end of civil twighlight, where it is still plenty bright for most of that time. The street lights come on at the end of civil twighlight. I'm not overly keen on lobs in the inky blackness of a New Moon, but I'd have no problem going for a 'night jump' 10 minutes after sunset.

I've done that many times, without having to blindly grope my way back to the packing hangar...

I believe a night jump must be an hour after sunset.... minimum.

edited to add SIM 6-4 night jump requirements

5. Night jumps to meet license requirements and to establish world records must take place between one hour after official sunset and one hour before official sunrise.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[manseman 0]

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Landing out due to a bad spot is elective.

Landing out due to a bad spot is elective, but landing out due to an aircraft engine failure isn't. You're not going to find yourself under canopy in night conditions by chance or bad luck alone, while the same definitely cannot be said about landing out.

[nigel99 143]

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If one is to hold the highest designation in a sport such as ours they should be at least familiar with ALL of it's aspects, not just the ones they like or are easy to do.

Jim, if that is true then for a D, people should have to do a water landing and CRW as well (possibly other stuff).

I've been on a load where someone had bought a block of 100 hop and pops specifically to knock out jumps to get his D. He had done a 100 jumps the month before of the same. While I am sure he was gaining experience working towards his D, I don't see that he was experiencing much diversity or challenge.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[pchapman 261]

We do have that philosophical issue of what a D should represent.

Is it an honorary degree for accumulated time & jumps in the sport?

Is it about doing something in the sport well, or a bit of everything?
Should the national accuracy champion deserve a D if he can't turn X points or hold a stable sitfly?

Is it about being good at the fun parts of the sport (X points in belly or headdown or CRW), or about the survival skills part of the sport (night, water)?

And is jumping in a variety of different conditions just 'jumping through hoops' ("let's require night naked low-pull water jumps") or a real demonstration of acquired survival skills? Or how does one make the former the latter?

[popsjumper 2]

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We do have that philosophical issue of what a D should represent.

..... about the survival skills part of the sport (night, water)?

I'm in that camp.
What I fail to see is the logic behind meeting minimum standards qualifing anyone for "Expert" status.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[airtwardo 6]

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If one is to hold the highest designation in a sport such as ours they should be at least familiar with ALL of it's aspects, not just the ones they like or are easy to do.

Jim, if that is true then for a D, people should have to do a water landing and CRW as well (possibly other stuff).

I've been on a load where someone had bought a block of 100 hop and pops specifically to knock out jumps to get his D. He had done a 100 jumps the month before of the same. While I am sure he was gaining experience working towards his D, I don't see that he was experiencing much diversity or challenge.

I agree 100% Nigel, the requirements should be raised considerably. CReW, Style, Accuracy, Enter 8th or better, Demonstrate a HP landing...on & on.

The idea is to have and demonstrate a working knowledge of the main aspects of our sport. Have a well rounded overview of everything we do.

Somewhere that was lost in the translation to the 'me' generation.
It's not about 'just' doing the minimum to get the license, it is suppose to outline the basic things you should know how to do and you take it from there and work on being competent in that area. These days it's just a check list you 'have' to get through.

It seems like so many these days are in a big hurry to get to 'cool kid' status that they skip over the things that they need for a long term solid foundation...the quick & easy do the minimum so they can talk the talk without ever having walked the walk.

I hate to be the old fart ranting but before it went 'mainstream' and guys started wearing spandex all weekend there was actual mentoring going on. Those that knew made sure those that didn't would learn. And at least at the place I was lucky enough to start jumping at, you were encouraged to be good at it all.

The OP said something about not ever seeing anyone do night jumps except to meet the license requirements...that's too bad, 'back in the day' we did night jumps just about every full moon. There were almost always more people wanting to jump than slots available. I probably had 20 night jumps out of my first 100 jumps total. Now it's something people seem afraid of, or it's a chore to have to do.

Several times a year the DZ set up water training, it was a fun deal...even those that had already done it did it again. We went out to a big lake, put a couple boats in the water and made 5 or 6 cessna loads into it. Last year I saw two people get a 10 minute briefing, crawl into a 3 foot above ground pool with a party balloon on their wrist and have an old canopy thrown at 'em...yeah THAT will prepare ya. But they got to check water training off the list...quick and easy.

I dunno which is worse, the fact that's the only training available, or the fact that the jumpers were OKAY with it...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[danielcroft 2]

Target the lowest common denominator, that way everyone gets a prize!

[obelixtim 100]

Well the point as I see it (and experienced it) was that a D licence qualified you to go for ratings like instructor, which then qualified you to to become a CSO (chief safety officer), which meant you were then in charge of all aspects of safety on the DZ, in fact you couldn't have a dz unless you had a CSO.

Suitably qualified people who were willing to take that responsibility for the lives of others were not that common back in the day.

Since you would be dealing with safety across all aspects of the skydiving spectrum, having achieved these standards meant you were better equipped to deal with all or most situations that arose. And if something "new" came along, you had the basic grounding in how to approach that particular aspect. A lot of what you already knew, could be adapted to attacking the new problem or aspect, since many of the general skills apply to most situations.

It all boils down to extra experience.

For example I did a high altitude course with the airforce, back in the day when Cessnas ruled the skydiving world, it was very rare to go above 12500 feet on a skydive. I learnt a hell of a lot, which added to my experience "bank", even though I knew I would prolly never get to 26000 feet in a skydiving aircraft.

When turbines came along and we started going to 15 grand regularly, I knew what we had to do to technically wise to make that happen and the problems that could ensue.

Of course not everyone who gets a D wants to run a DZ or become an Instructor, but you knew on any DZ if you approached a D licence holder for advice, what was forthcomingwas pretty sound information.

And people with the appropriate qualifications are not that thick on the ground. Without them, skydiving would be pretty difficult. And as more and more of us dinosaurs retire from the sport, we will see mistakes as that experience is lost, and the wheel is reinvented.

The D licence means someone is ready to begin to take ultimate responsibility for the lives of others, and has a base core of knowledge and experience to start down that road.

As has been said, night jumps are something different, and require a different approach, which all adds to the experience bank. I think people should do them, and also water landings, NOT because I had to do them, but because they are useful tools to have in your box if you need them, and also because, they are fun.

Night jumps are fun, and having maybe 40 or so under my belt including RW and CRW, are some of my best skydiving experiences.

Why do people approach these things as if they are some sort of imposition?.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[popsjumper 2]

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Target the lowest common denominator, that way everyone gets a prize!

No DGIT Left Behind!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Absolutely well-put and by far and away, the best argument yet for D-license requirements.

I particularly like these two paragraphs:
"And people with the appropriate qualifications are not that thick on the ground. Without them, skydiving would be pretty difficult. And as more and more of us dinosaurs retire from the sport, we will see mistakes as that experience is lost, and the wheel is reinvented.

The D licence means someone is ready to begin to take ultimate responsibility for the lives of others, and has a base core of knowledge and experience to start down that road. "

I'm disappointed, in light of your post, that the powers that be elected to downgrade the requirements by eliminating the more important of the two we are discussing (Night/Water).

For those that want to be called "Experts" I would like to see an "E" license requiring experience in ALL the specialty jumps. Only then should you really be considered an "Expert".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[airtwardo 6]

I'm disappointed, in light of your post, that the powers that be elected to downgrade the requirements by eliminating the more important of the two we are discussing (Night/Water

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Prime example~ a few years ago I was invited on the Century of Flight demo at Kitty Hawk, 100 jumpers going into the Wright Brothers monument @ Kill Devel Hill. It of course is on the water.

The night before the jump after we'd practiced off site, several jumpers were discussing the possibility of a water landing. We were all D's and most were PRO's as well, but quite a few of the newer minted D's were showing concern.

THIS was 'real', the ocean was damn cold, probably not many if any recovery boats in the area, recollection of the old beech load that drown back in the day had a few jumpers wishing they had brought 'real' water gear and not the little wrist balloons that merely meet the requirement of a floation devise.

I use airline horse collar vests, they provide great flotation for a long time, keep you upright and they lay flat under your harness.

I had a few spares with me and loaned them out, while 'training' the guys how to use them a few others were watching and spoke up that they'd never thought about undoing the chest strap prior to inflation...if you don't the vest will be pushing against your ribs making it very hard to breath.

THAT is why doing the practical training is so important...there were several jumpers that very well may have had to make a water jump who didn't have the right equiptment, or didn't know how to use the gear they did have.

No dubt when they checked off 'water training ' they thought it was something stupid they'dnever 'really' need.

Like night jumps!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[kuai43 7]

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while 'training' the guys how to use them a few others were watching and spoke up that they'd never thought about undoing the chest strap prior to inflation...if you don't the vest will be pushing against your ribs making it very hard to breath.

Unless I missed something, that 'ol chest strap should have been undone well before hitting the water anyway.
RSL (if applicable) & chest strap are the first things I'd go for as soon as I thought I had a good canopy.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[pirana 0]

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Other than demonstration jumps, the only night jumps I’ve ever witnessed have been to meet the D license requirement.

Interesting observation that you've never witnessed a night jump made just for the fun of it. So have you witnessed a small handful, or lots of them?

When I started (1995) night jumps were a pretty regular thing. It was mostly sport jumpers doing it for kicks and giggles; with newer jumpers joining in small numbers. For some reason that has changed and most of the time they are arranged just for the purposes of getting the D license, with maybe a few sport jumpers getting on the load. Strange.

For the record, I love them, and do feel it is a reasonable requirement to attain the expert or master level - whatever people want to call it. It's not a change in discipline (such as wingsuiting), just a change in environment (low light level) - and one that is encountered often enough to be prepared.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[DSE 3]

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Unless I missed something, that 'ol chest strap should have been undone well before hitting the water anyway.
RSL (if applicable) & chest strap are the first things I'd go for as soon as I thought I had a good canopy.

USPA SIM says "activate PFD" before loosening chest strap. If a horsecollar is used, common sense dictates loosening chest strap first. But how many DZ's train with/for PFD? How many civilians use horsecollars vs waist/wrist devices?
USPA water training hasn't been changed since the days of round parachutes. A few people have suggested changes to the SIM.

USPA/SIM Water training

Back to topic, doesn't it seem more likely to be landing "after sunset" than in water at most DZ's? I'm sure we all agree that night landings are a greater risk than a water landing.
Water training is required for a B (50 jumps), night jumps are required for a D (500 jumps). Seems reasonably spread out over experience?

[pirana 0]

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"We know you're going to be stupid and flaunt all sensibilities and violate rules and regulations so let's require you to do it...hopefully before you flaunt and violate."

I couldn't find that in the SIM.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[popsjumper 2]

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Back to topic, doesn't it seem more likely to be landing "after sunset" than in water at most DZ's?

I'm sure we all agree that night landings are a greater risk than a water landing.

Landing "after sunset" is not what we are talking about.

Given that so any DZs are not near enough to a body of water, then yes, water landings are less hazardous at those DZs.

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Water training is required for a B (50 jumps), night jumps are required for a D (500 jumps). Seems reasonably spread out over experience?

In your view, accidental night jumps are more hazardous than water jumps but USPA requires water jump training early and delays night jump training requirements until much later.

Do you see a problem with that?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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"We know you're going to be stupid and flaunt all sensibilities and violate rules and regulations so let's require you to do it...hopefully before you flaunt and violate."

I couldn't find that in the SIM.

It's an unwritten but universally-recognized rule. It goes along with the "if you're gonna be stupid, you'd better be tough" rule.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Amazon 7]

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Back to topic, doesn't it seem more likely to be landing "after sunset" than in water at most DZ's?

I'm sure we all agree that night landings are a greater risk than a water landing.

Landing "after sunset" is not what we are talking about.

Given that so any DZs are not near enough to a body of water, then yes, water landings are less hazardous at those DZs.

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Water training is required for a B (50 jumps), night jumps are required for a D (500 jumps). Seems reasonably spread out over experience?

In your view, accidental night jumps are more hazardous than water jumps but USPA requires water jump training early and delays night jump training requirements until much later.

Do you see a problem with that?

Talk about early... my first two landings under canopies were in the water... but I did have flotation and a 1 man life raft too... I did a LOT of those... AWSUM FUN
It was what got me interested in skydiving.. I was out at the DZ that following saturday for the FJC
I have to say... that night jumps are always special to me... there is nothing quite like that feeling of freefall in the dark.. with distant lights on the ground.... cities on the horizon.... and seeing the moon like you are not used to seeing it

[DSE 3]

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In your view, accidental night jumps are more hazardous than water jumps but USPA requires water jump training early and delays night jump training requirements until much later.

Do you see a problem with that?

Where did I say that?

Your argument keeps going round and round and nowhere. Somehow, you're making a lot of assumptions that shouldn't be made (at least about my position).

USPA doesn't require either nightjump or water training.
Unless someone wants a specific indicator of merit and ability.

[obelixtim 100]

I´ve been waiting for someone to come up with the "why not do jumps into power lines, trees, and onto roofs", as they are also hazards that are likely to be encountered, and experience you might need...but my answer is simply we can learn from those experiences from the people that do that either accidently or stupidly......

Surprised no smartarse has come up with that one yet in this discussion.....

As far as water landings go, there seems to be an irrational assumption that landing in water results in instant death, and while it can be hazardous, the only time instant action is required is if you land in water that is moving, i.e. a swift current in a river, or surf if you are near the shore of a large lake or the ocean.

IMO, the big hazard comes with the temperature of the water, because in cold climates, even the right equipment and the ability to swim is not going to be much use if you are not adequately insulated against exposure to low temperatures.

Falling out of the harness after undoing the chest strap above water has killed at least one jumper, or so I have heard, I would be careful about doing that.

If you have an inflatable lifejacket, you can partially inflate it under canopy, without undoing your chest strap completely, and then you are able to get out of your gear once you are in the water quite easily.

Contrary to most peoples seeming assumption, a set of gear doesn´t instantly drag you under the water, in fact a packed reserve contains quite a lot of air and retains some bouyancy for some time.

I did a test jump into water one time just to check this out (after a drowning fatality in the local lake where a non swimmer landed in the water and panicked. He had neglected his lifejacket and left it in the plane.), and found that without inflating my lifejacket the rig retained positive bouyancy for quite a while, holding me head high for about 15 minutes.

My conclusion was that you have a bit of time to get out of your harness after landing, without rushing, if you are going into still water.

Ditching all your gear is not always a good idea as well.

In the case I mentioned, the jumper discarded both his helmet and shoes, which were found floating on the surface after he´d disappeared (the helmet was lined with polystyrene, and the shoes had hollow, air filled pockets in the soles).....both would have been bouyancy aids had he not panicked and ditched them.

Retaining the helmet would also provide good insulation for the head, where heat loss can be rapid.

Another tip about landing in the ocean is not to try to make the shore if it means landing in the surf, it is better to land further out, beyond the surf line. in deeper water, where a boat can easily pick you up, something which is impossible if there is a big surf running.

In all these unusual situations, as in most others, the most important thing is to keep calm and carry out your pre practised emergency drills.

Everybody does practise emergency drills....right???.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[popsjumper 2]

DSE, please do not get upset here. We are dicussing, not arguing, eh?

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In your view, accidental night jumps are more hazardous than water jumps but USPA requires water jump training early and delays night jump training requirements until much later.

Do you see a problem with that?

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Where did I say that?

In post 140 you said, "I'm sure we all agree that night landings are a greater risk than a water landing. "

Did I take that the wrong way? If so, please clarify.

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USPA doesn't require either nightjump or water training.
Unless someone wants a specific indicator of merit and ability.

Well, partly so...if you want to look at it that way.
If I want to do a specialty jump, one needs the training...regardless of any desire for any indicator of merit of ability.

If I want to do a water jump, I need the prior training and I can do that with an A license...no indicator of merit or ability to go with it.

As far as my argument going round and round...please note that we are not talking about twilight jumps....
It's simple.
1. I see no valid reason to require night jump training for a D license for those who never intend to do night jumps. Other things depend on having a D and none of them require that one actually DO a night jump.

2. If you want to keep the night jump requirement for a D, then why not keep the water jump training also? Accidently landing at night is less likely than accidently landing in water.

3. If one thinks night and water jumps should be a requirement regardless of intent to jump, then make the requirement applicable earlier in the licensing progression. For example, A license is allowed to do intentional water jumps but the requirement for training only appears as part of B license.

All those statements about specialty jumps being fun AND beneficial to overall skill development are true but have no bearing on license requirements.

A side note is that idea about "D = expert".
I can't think of anyone, myself included, who could possibly think that having done two night jumps makes one an "expert" of any sort.

I have a D, you have a D. Is there anyone out there who would possibly think that I am as "expert" as you? The idea is preposterous.

I endorse the idea of an E license where one has trained for, done, ALL the specialty jumps.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nigel99 143]

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Falling out of the harness after undoing the chest strap above water has killed at least one jumper, or so I have heard, I would be careful about doing that.

I have done water training, but not a live water jump. I can tell you that trying to get out of a harness with the chest strap fastened is very difficult. I am a very good swimmer, and I still felt my heart rate rise trying to escape the gear.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[airtwardo 6]

If you have an inflatable life-jacket, you can partially inflate it under canopy, without undoing your chest strap completely, and then you are able to get out of your gear once you are in the water quite easily.

Contrary to most peoples seeming assumption, a set of gear doesn't instantly drag you under the water, in fact a packed reserve contains quite a lot of air and retains some buoyancy for some time.

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Just to be clear, so no one misunderstands...

The type of airline horse-collar life-vest I use has both a cartridge and a tube to inflate it. Many of the belt and 'vest' types only have a cartridge to fill them.

IF you fire that inflater before you have the chest strap open it will push back against the harness and push your ribcage into your lungs making it next to impossible to breathe. With a horse-collar or vest type you really need to completely undo the strap, just loosening it usually isn't enough, and once inflated and in the water taking the chest strap the rest of the way off can sometimes be a battle.

Ya gotta think worse case here, fast moving cold river
completely dressed for a normal jump, shoes, jumpsuit helmet etc. Not in a bathing suit at a 3 foot deep pool. I wanted to know so I tried it in the Illinois River a few times...it 'sounds' easy on paper but it is not.
One of the reasons all my rigs have either QE's or B12's...

I do a lot of demos that either exit over or land near moving water so I spent two days in a pool some years back trying different flotation devices and methods of using them...

...and by the way, my old belly mount reserve floats but my piggy back rig does NOT.

With the main and reserve packed the rig floats about 30 seconds or less, with the reserve packed and the main 'open' the harness & container go straight to the bottom, the main lays on top for quite a while not letting the container sink completely away but if one cuts the main away as we train for...MY rig anyway will not help me float in anyway.

THAT's why I use a horse-collar, it will keep both me and the rig fairly high in the soup...and head up feet down, try it sometime with an inflatable belt...it's a bitch to get the rig off floating with your waist at the highpoint.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[kallend 1,623]

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Nonsense. Getting on a sunset load is elective. Choosing to exit at or after sunset is elective.

Sure, getting on the load and even exiting is elective. Having a malfunction is "elective" too.

I kinda doubt that people will realize too late that they didn't elect to be part of a CRW, Wingsuit, 100 way, or Nationals competition.

Sometimes, what looks good in the air isn't the same as what looks good in freefall or under canopy. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't learn that until it's too late to get back in the aircraft.

If you've never been in that situation, then god bless you for having never had a moment of poor judgement. Most every experienced skydiver has at some point.

If the risk of a sunset load turning into a night landing is so great in your mind, why aren't you agitating for sunset loads to be restricted to those who have had night jump training? Your position is highly inconsistent.

Looking at the accident statistics, there are many many issues far more in need of additional attention than night jump skills - mostly related to canopy flying in broad daylight.

ALL - the descriptives "expert", "master" etc. were eliminated from the licenses more than a decade ago. Bringing those up is just a red herring.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.