kallend 1,623 #226 November 28, 2011 Quote>And all those with only A, B and C licenses rode the plane down, right, because >that is always an option. Yes, it is. Is it safer? Sometimes. Sometimes it is safer to get out. When trying to decide whether or not it is safer to exit an aircraft at night or land with the plane on an unlit runway, the experience of having done a night jump is very, very valuable. Disagree - making that comparison you would also need to know how well the pilot can land on the runway at night. I submit that any commercial pilot legal for night flight in a properly equipped plane is more likely to be proficient at night landings (and certainly more legal) than an unlit skydiver** who has made just 2 night jumps. ** I have yet to see anyone get on a sunset load with FAA legal lights.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #227 November 28, 2011 Quote"there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions" is false. And when it did happen to me I was glad I had gotten night jump training.Same. At two different DZ's, I've landed more than 30 minutes after sunset. That's literally night jump. A combination of a late sunset jump & high-altitude hop n pop. I _truly_ should have brought along my headlamp and a strobe light! However, I enjoy night jumps, and I manifest on a night jump whenever I have the infrequent opportunity to do so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #228 November 28, 2011 ...but all are more likely than an *accidental* night jump. Quote That depends on when, where & how often you jump. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #229 November 28, 2011 >Disagree - making that comparison you would also need to know how well the pilot >can land on the runway at night. Or at least have some idea. Rob Caster - no problem. Bill Eagle - would get out even if it was a pitch black moonless night. >I submit that any commercial pilot legal for night flight in a properly equipped plane is >more likely to be proficient at night landings (and certainly more legal) than an unlit >skydiver** who has made just 2 night jumps. Agreed. But legal does not always equal safer. Watch the late night arrivals at Lost Prairie for a good example of this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #230 November 28, 2011 Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in twilight conditions instead of night conditions? All the arguments in favor of the night jump requirement really boil down to "That's the way we've always done it" rather than any serious analysis of needs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #231 November 28, 2011 ** I have yet to see anyone get on a sunset load with FAA legal lights. Quote I've seen it...I often (but not always) do. I know of a couple other guys I jump with that clip a strobe on as well if it's getting late. Cheap insurance that makes it easier for other jumpers to see me in lower light conditions...something night training should probably stress. How may people do you see carry water gear when jumping near water? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #232 November 28, 2011 >Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in >twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Sure, as long as it is as dark as any twilight jump will be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #233 November 28, 2011 Quote Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Because legal sunset is a more universally understood term than twilight, you know how Skydivers fudge the limits...people would be jumping at noon calling it 'twilight'. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #234 November 28, 2011 Quote>Disagree - making that comparison you would also need to know how well the pilot >can land on the runway at night. Or at least have some idea. Rob Caster - no problem. Bill Eagle - would get out even if it was a pitch black moonless night. >I submit that any commercial pilot legal for night flight in a properly equipped plane is >more likely to be proficient at night landings (and certainly more legal) than an unlit >skydiver** who has made just 2 night jumps. Agreed. But legal does not always equal safer. Watch the late night arrivals at Lost Prairie for a good example of this. And what about those skydivers on the sunset load that haven't got a "D" and never had a night briefing?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #235 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Because legal sunset is a more universally understood term than twilight, you know how Skydivers fudge the limits...people would be jumping at noon calling it 'twilight'. Incorrect. Twilight is just as well defined in the FARs as sunset and sunrise.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #236 November 28, 2011 Quote>Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in >twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Sure, as long as it is as dark as any twilight jump will be. Why? The illusions during twilight are different than those in complete darkness.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #237 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Because legal sunset is a more universally understood term than twilight, you know how Skydivers fudge the limits...people would be jumping at noon calling it 'twilight'. Incorrect. Twilight is just as well defined in the FARs as sunset and sunrise. Then fly to SDA in February and present a proposal/change to the Safety and Training Committee where it might make a difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites theonlyski 3 #238 November 28, 2011 QuoteWhen trying to decide whether or not it is safer to exit an aircraft at night or land with the plane on an unlit runway, the experience of having done a night jump is very, very valuable. Isn't it common practice to illuminate the landing area during night jumps? (which are usually conducted during full moons or high lunar light nights anyway) Not trying to throw gas on the fire, but landing on a dark grass strip with no moon is different than landing on a lit surface with lunar illumination... right?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #239 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteHow does having a "B" and a briefing prove competency in night jumps? How does three hours of duel at night prove competency at flying solo at night? If your instructor does it properly, you have to demonstrate proficiency in navigation and night takeoffs and landings. Not just fly around at random for 3 hours. What proficiency do you have to demonstrate on a night jump for the "D" beyond being alive at the end of it? Quote QuoteEven surviving just 2 of them does not prove competency. You can break a femur and still satisfy the requirement. The requirement is both without logical justification AND is poorly implemented. How is three hours of duel training (with no other objectives) enough to certify someone to get a pilots LICENSE and allow them to fly SOLO at night? Red herring; a "D" license isn't what entitles you to jump solo at night.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #232 November 28, 2011 >Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in >twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Sure, as long as it is as dark as any twilight jump will be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #233 November 28, 2011 Quote Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Because legal sunset is a more universally understood term than twilight, you know how Skydivers fudge the limits...people would be jumping at noon calling it 'twilight'. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #234 November 28, 2011 Quote>Disagree - making that comparison you would also need to know how well the pilot >can land on the runway at night. Or at least have some idea. Rob Caster - no problem. Bill Eagle - would get out even if it was a pitch black moonless night. >I submit that any commercial pilot legal for night flight in a properly equipped plane is >more likely to be proficient at night landings (and certainly more legal) than an unlit >skydiver** who has made just 2 night jumps. Agreed. But legal does not always equal safer. Watch the late night arrivals at Lost Prairie for a good example of this. And what about those skydivers on the sunset load that haven't got a "D" and never had a night briefing?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #235 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Because legal sunset is a more universally understood term than twilight, you know how Skydivers fudge the limits...people would be jumping at noon calling it 'twilight'. Incorrect. Twilight is just as well defined in the FARs as sunset and sunrise.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #236 November 28, 2011 Quote>Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in >twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Sure, as long as it is as dark as any twilight jump will be. Why? The illusions during twilight are different than those in complete darkness.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #237 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Because legal sunset is a more universally understood term than twilight, you know how Skydivers fudge the limits...people would be jumping at noon calling it 'twilight'. Incorrect. Twilight is just as well defined in the FARs as sunset and sunrise. Then fly to SDA in February and present a proposal/change to the Safety and Training Committee where it might make a difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #238 November 28, 2011 QuoteWhen trying to decide whether or not it is safer to exit an aircraft at night or land with the plane on an unlit runway, the experience of having done a night jump is very, very valuable. Isn't it common practice to illuminate the landing area during night jumps? (which are usually conducted during full moons or high lunar light nights anyway) Not trying to throw gas on the fire, but landing on a dark grass strip with no moon is different than landing on a lit surface with lunar illumination... right?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #239 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteHow does having a "B" and a briefing prove competency in night jumps? How does three hours of duel at night prove competency at flying solo at night? If your instructor does it properly, you have to demonstrate proficiency in navigation and night takeoffs and landings. Not just fly around at random for 3 hours. What proficiency do you have to demonstrate on a night jump for the "D" beyond being alive at the end of it? Quote QuoteEven surviving just 2 of them does not prove competency. You can break a femur and still satisfy the requirement. The requirement is both without logical justification AND is poorly implemented. How is three hours of duel training (with no other objectives) enough to certify someone to get a pilots LICENSE and allow them to fly SOLO at night? Red herring; a "D" license isn't what entitles you to jump solo at night.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #240 November 28, 2011 >And what about those skydivers on the sunset load that haven't got a "D" and never >had a night briefing? They could definitely use the experience that a night jump (or at least a night jump briefing) gives. >Why? The illusions during twilight are different than those in complete darkness. Yep. But the problems tend to get worse the darker it gets. I guess the ideal would be to do an early twilight jump and a night jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #241 November 28, 2011 QuoteIf your instructor does it properly, you have to demonstrate proficiency in navigation and night takeoffs and landings. Not just fly around at random for 3 hours. And *if done correctly* the briefing and the two night jumps gives you skills for low light landings. QuoteWhat proficiency do you have to demonstrate on a night jump for the "D" beyond being alive at the end of it? What proficiency does the FAA have written for the 3 hours of night duel? QuoteRed herring; a "D" license isn't what entitles you to jump solo at night. It does require 2 night jumps for a "D" license JUST as 3 hours of duel at night is required for a private ticket. Do not want to do the requirements to get the LICENSE... Then stick to sport pilot, or a "C"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #242 November 28, 2011 QuoteAll the arguments in favor of the night jump requirement really boil down to "That's the way we've always done it" rather than any serious analysis of needs. Nonsense.... That is all you have understood."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #243 November 28, 2011 QuoteHow is three hours of duel training (with no other objectives) enough to certify someone to get a pilots LICENSE and allow them to fly SOLO at night? Quote(2) Except as provided in 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes, (i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and (ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport. While not much, that's more than just burning holes in the sky for 3 hours. My instructor took it a few steps further: On each of the stop-and-go's, my instructor randomly took away my headset, landing/taxi lights, runway lights (bright, dim and off), panel lights, flaps, engine... I'm very confident in my abilities to land the plane at night, even with some failures of the equipment (which works out well because that damn plane HAS no instrument lights and I end up flying it in very dark times ...with a headlamp to see the instruments if I remembered to bring it). 2 touch and goes wouldn't have made me anywhere near as confident as that did."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #244 November 28, 2011 QuoteWhile not much, that's more than just burning holes in the sky for 3 hours. And the night jump requirements for a "D" license are more than just "burning two holes in the sky". You have to do a solo and an RW jump. QuoteMy instructor took it a few steps further..... And some skydiving instructors give more than the min... But that is not the issue. Quote2 touch and goes wouldn't have made me anywhere near as confident as that did. And zero would have made you less comfortable than two."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #245 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote While not much, that's more than just burning holes in the sky for 3 hours. And the night jump requirements for a "D" license are more than just "burning two holes in the sky". You have to do a solo and an RW jump. Quote c. made two night jumps (recommended that the first one be a solo and one in a group) with a freefall of at least 20 seconds Recommended, not required. I could see your point if the requirements for it to count were landing on a dark LZ with no lunar illumination, but even then, that's just stupid to try to enforce on people trying to get a D-License because they want to do daytime demos (PRO rating) or take tandems during the day."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #246 November 28, 2011 Quotebut even then, that's just stupid to try to enforce on people trying to get a D-License because they want to do daytime demos (PRO rating) or take tandems during the day. Those people can get a waiver."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #247 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote but even then, that's just stupid to try to enforce on people trying to get a D-License because they want to do daytime demos (PRO rating) or take tandems during the day. Those people can get a waiver. Then what's the point of the requirement? "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMK 3 #248 November 28, 2011 I believe more should be required for a D License not less. For all the pedantic commentary above, night jumps will make you more skilled in regards to “low light jumping” regardless of how many exact lumens or degrees of the sun below the visible horizon. USPA gives out D Licenses with 500 jumps whereas for much of the world it is 1000 jumps. I wish I lived somewhere that I could do night jumps every full moon; they’re good fun. I’ve never missed a chance to do one when they were offered. Also, as noted above – there is no type of jumping that requires a D License."Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #249 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote Quote but even then, that's just stupid to try to enforce on people trying to get a D-License because they want to do daytime demos (PRO rating) or take tandems during the day. Those people can get a waiver. Then what's the point of the requirement? There isn't any point beyond "I did it, so you newbies have to". All the arguments about sunset loads are just silly, since no night training at all is needed to get on a sunset load.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #250 November 28, 2011 QuoteI believe more should be required for a D License not less. For all the pedantic commentary above, night jumps will make you more skilled in regards to “low light jumping” regardless of how many exact lumens or degrees of the sun below the visible horizon. . No it won't, because the visual illusions during twilight are different from the visual illusions at night. Yet another red herring argument. If you think jumping in twilight conditions is the problem, then make the requirement 2 (or more) twilight jumps... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
