Letter from the Head of the FAA (May Parachutist)

[cpoxon 0]

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We havent bounced one off an aircraft in flight since Otay 30 years ago right?

Actually in the last few years we've had at least two skydiver aircraft collisions NOT related to a botched exit.

One was Gus Wing a camera flyer, and the jumpship he had exited from earlier. He was under parachute and the A/C clipped and killed him.

The other I can think of was a pilot doing a sunset load flyby, and managed to put an Otter wing through a guys parachute at about 60 feet. He lived.

Also, Michele Thibaudeau, Skydive San Marcos, 27th May 2001.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20010601X01046&key=1

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A de Havilland DHC-6 and a Beech King Air 90 were to make a formation air drop of skydivers from 14,000 feet msl. The de Havilland was to be the lead aircraft with the King Air in trail. As the skydivers prepared to exit, the King Air was traveling faster than the de Havilland, and the pilot of the King Air had to pitch up and bank right to avoid the de Havilland. At that time, the pilot of the King Air lost sight of the de Havilland. A video tape taken by one of the skydivers showed that at the time the skydivers exited, the King Air was above, right, and ahead of the de Havilland. One of the King Air skydivers contacted the right propeller of the de Havilland. Other skydivers then saw this skydiver spinning out of control. One of these skydivers caught the injured skydiver and pulled the reserve handle; however, the reserve parachute did not fully inflate "due to being cut by the propeller." The injured skydiver fell to the ground. Both airplanes landed without further incident. The operator reported that this was the first formation air drop flight for either pilot in a multi-engine aircraft.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this ACC as follows:

the King Air pilot's inadequate in-flight planning/decision in that he failed to remain in the agreed on formation position, resulting in one of his skydiver's contacting the propeller of the de Havilland airplane. A contributing factor was the lack of total experience of both pilots in multiengine formation air drop flights.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Hard to believe that it has been 10 yrs.

[jumpwally 0]

Yes we do need to be told. Yes , we are that dumb..look at the human carnage around us.

Your DZO buddy has the power to educate and change things at his DZ. But does he have the spine to do so ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[DocPop 1]

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How about, like the PRO rating we develop a specific rating card that anyone jumping a canopy loaded at whatever:1 must hold in order to jump that canopy at a GMDZ.

Some of this work has been done for us in the UK:

www.bpa.org.uk/safetydocs/canopyhandling.pdf

Would could attach WL limits on the different CH and CP levels, for example:

CH1 holders.....WL not greater than 1.0
CH2 holders.....WL not greater than 1.2
CP1 holders.....WL not greater than 1.5
CP2 holders.....WL not limited

The above numbers are obviously up for debate, but I wanted to give an example.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[AndyMan 7]

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One was Gus Wing a camera flyer, and the jumpship he had exited from earlier. He was under parachute and the A/C clipped and killed him.

The other I can think of was a pilot doing a sunset load flyby, and managed to put an Otter wing through a guys parachute at about 60 feet. He lived.

A third in Wisconsin just a few years ago, a Porter clipped a swooping jumper on landing, the wing hit the back of the jumpers rig. Jumper landed, but the Porter crashed and was destroyed.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[PhreeZone 15]

Another was a few years back in Cleveland where a Beech 18 snagged a jumpers canopy on landing and really injured the jumper as well as damaging the aircraft.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ianmdrennan 2]

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>Want people to get better at flying parachutes? Then you need people
>who already know how to do it well.

You know, now that drunk driving has been outlawed, we have a LOT fewer people who are skilled at driving drunk. That's not an argument for allowing drunk driving.

The argument you have to make is that "swooping can be done safely by following X Y and Z." The argument "if you don't allow swooping no one will be able to fly their canopies well" doesn't work.

What is it with you, and some others, using drunk driving analogies when discussing high performance landings? I can only assume it's to get an emotional response from people.

Perhaps, a better analogy (and a less emotional one) may be to use a discipline that actually takes practice, skill, and hard work to achieve any sort of proficient status in.

Cj brought up a valid point. Like it or not, people who've dedicated a significant portion of their skydiving career to just understanding parachute flight are going to be better equipped than people who haven't (and that's the majority). This is true for almost all things in, and outside of skydiving.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[mjosparky 3]

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Cj brought up a valid point. Like it or not, people who've dedicated a significant portion of their skydiving career to just understanding parachute flight are going to be better equipped than people who haven't

Better equipped for what? All the understanding and skill is moot if it is used in a reckless and dangerous manner. And that is true for almost all things……………….

People were safely landing canopies long before there was a PD Factory Team and the majority continues to do so. But there is a fringe element who think they know parachute flight that are causing havoc and need to be reined in.

There is no analogy there just a statement of fact.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,397]

>What is it with you, and some others, using drunk driving analogies when
>discussing high performance landings?

Because

1) It's hard to do safely when you are in close proximity to other people

2) It's very safe for others if you do it on a closed course

3) It's a dangerous thing to try (although I think you should have the right to do it provided you don't put others at risk) and

4) you can't make it safer by saying "I'll be really careful and therefore keep myself safe."

That being said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with drinking and driving on a closed track, and indeed there have been a fair amount of people who have done just that for research purposes. There are also people (I can think of a few) who are probably _safer_ driving slightly drunk because they don't have the shakes.

Now, outlawing drunk driving absolutely means that fewer people will have experience driving drunk, so some day if someone does find themselves driving drunk, they will have less experience at it - and may therefore be more likely to get into an accident. However, overall we benefit from not having drunk drivers on the same roads, at the same time, as everyone else.

[NovaTTT 1]

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Now, outlawing drunk driving absolutely means that fewer people will have experience driving drunk, so some day if someone does find themselves driving drunk, they will have less experience at it - and may therefore be more likely to get into an accident. However, overall we benefit from not having drunk drivers on the same roads, at the same time, as everyone else.

"(Green), I do believe you're talking out of your ass"

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[wmw999 2,121]

Would comparing it to driving at race-car speeds (effectively, street vs. track racing) be as accurate, and maybe a little less charged?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Andy9o8 0]

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Would comparing it to driving at race-car speeds (effectively, street vs. track racing) be as accurate, and maybe a little less charged? Wendy P.

You know, who asked you? I'm still working on my popcorn.

I think we should compare it to target shooting down a long, straight hallway of an elementary school during class time. As long as everyone stays in the classroom where they're supposed to be, it's all good.

[airtwardo 6]

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Would comparing it to driving at race-car speeds (effectively, street vs. track racing) be as accurate, and maybe a little less charged? Wendy P.

You know, who asked you? I'm still working on my popcorn.

I think we should compare it to target shooting down a long, straight hallway of an elementary school during class time. As long as everyone stays in the classroom where they're supposed to be, it's all good.

Watch for ricochet, it's the unintended bounce that ruins the fun for everybody!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,397]

>Would comparing it to driving at race-car speeds (effectively, street vs.
>track racing) be as accurate, and maybe a little less charged?

With the exception that you'd have to take away the brakes on the car the person is driving (or at least make them less effective than everyone else's.) If you did that, the analogy would be fairly accurate.

One of the biggest problems in this whole issue are the large number of swoopers who think "this doesn't apply to me." They are certain that they are clearing their airspace, they can see all the other traffic that's an issue, they never swoop unless it's safe etc etc. And yet even some of the best in the business have either killed or come close to killing other people when they discovered they couldn't clear their airspace if there were other people in the air. Even one.

That's one of the reasons I made the comparison to drunk driving. Talk to nearly any drunk guy about to get in his car, and what do they say? "I'll be fine." And they're not lying; they really think they will be OK, they will be careful, they've done this lots of times before, they have the experience, they are excellent drivers, of course they'll be able to avoid the other cars on the road etc.

That's not to suggest (of course) that swooping is the same as drunk driving. But that decision process - the one where the person concludes that yeah, they know it's not a good idea for everyone, but THEY will be fine - is very similar. (And, unfortunately, has had similar results.)

[Bolas 5]

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People were safely landing canopies long before there was a PD Factory Team and the majority continues to do so.

No they were not.

The majority of S-turners and sock followers that are afraid to land any direction but into the wind are the jumpers who have been around longer. They view the canopy that saves their life as a "neccessary evil" and give it and patterns little to no thought.

I'd be willing to bet there were more canopy collisions and near misses in the past but since the speeds were lower the consequences were less.

As for the drunk driving anology Bill likes to keep throwing, people used to jump drunk and on drugs alot more too.

The lack of landing pattern discipline and bad behaviors are not new, it's just the speeds have changed.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[airtwardo 6]

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The majority of S-turners and sock followers that are afraid to land any direction but into the wind are the jumpers who have been around longer. They view the canopy that saves their life as a "necessary evil" and give it and patterns little to no thought.

Ummm...who do you think was jumping the first cross braced canopies when they came out? Us 'older' jumpers were, got my 1st one over 20 years ago....and yes I use to do many other things that follow the sock!

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I'd be willing to bet there were more canopy collisions and near misses in the past but since the speeds were lower the consequences were less

And you would lose that bet, when everybody was going that speed there wasn't a lot of overtaking the guy in front of ya.

We get it Bolas, you don't want anything to change, you somehow feel that your right to swoop when, where and how you want, supersedes my right to land without the increased risk...it does not.

We can all try to get together and find a workable solution for this and try to make everyone somewhat happy...or we can let someone ELSE make the decision and quite possibly no one will be happy.

The death & injury toll is growing weekly.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[robinheid 0]

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Steadily rising numbers regarding injury and fatality under open canopies.
USPA pens a 'Call To Action'
FAA sends a letter suggesting changes.

~Yeah, I'm sure it all coincidence...we're doin' just fine.

+1... Yup! No problems here. So, expain to me again, why do my friends keep dying?

Look at the big picture, not a specific sub-set, in terms of appreciative inquiry:

Big picture = declining fatalties as a proportion of total jumps. We're doing well here.

Specific subset = increasing fatalities from high-performance parachute mishandling. We can do better here.

I.E., a call to action to do better on a subset of an otherwise well done self-regulating system

And why do your friends keep dying?

1. Everybody dies. Get used to it.

2. Human beings make mistakes.

3. Mistakes hurt more when speed and altitude are involved.

4; Skydiving involves speed and altitude.

5. Your friends are skydiving and because they are human, they make mistakes.

6. That is why your friends keep dying.

Any other questions?

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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Steadily rising numbers regarding injury and fatality under open canopies.
USPA pens a 'Call To Action'
FAA sends a letter suggesting changes.

~Yeah, I'm sure it all coincidence...we're doin' just fine.

+1... Yup! No problems here. So, expain to me again, why do my friends keep dying?

Look at the big picture, not a specific sub-set, in terms of appreciative inquiry:

Big picture = declining fatalties as a proportion of total jumps. We're doing well here.

Specific subset = increasing fatalities from high-performance parachute mishandling. We can do better here.

I.E., a call to action to do better on a subset of an otherwise well done self-regulating system

And why do your friends keep dying?

1. Everybody dies. Get used to it.

2. Human beings make mistakes.

3. Mistakes hurt more when speed and altitude are involved.

4; Skydiving involves speed and altitude.

5. Your friends are skydiving and because they are human, they make mistakes.

6. That is why your friends keep dying.

Any other questions?

Yes. Just one. Are you suggesting that we ignore this "specific subset" just because the "big picture" looks rosie? I hope thats not the message your trying to send. I'm not in favor of eliminating any disipline in this sport. I am in favor of finding a viable solution to a known problem. Just imagine what the big picture could look like 10 years from now.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[yoink 321]

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Some may think it others may just say it.

If doing modern carving turns they can alter/abort to their predesignated bailout area or perhaps another alternate.

This is the fundamental problem with this argument which we're not going to resolve.
You believe it is possible to truely clear your airspace and reliably have aborts on every jump without endangering anyone else. That's one opinion.

Personally, I believe only a tiny, tiny fraction of canopy pilots are skilled, disciplined and mature enough to do that.

If you're one of those - fantastic. What about the other 99.8% of people who aren't that capable? Do you not alter the rules governing swooping for the vast majority, because it may impact your fun? If so, that seems unbelievably selfish to me.

"I want to have my skydive AND swoop at the end if I think it's clear" is kinda wanting to have your cake and eat it.

How about asking some of the REALLY good pilots - the guys who are winning all the medals what they think and to chime in?

"Do most people who have HP canopies have the skills and judgement to swoop at the end of a mixed skydive safely every time, and do you believe it's possible for eveyone who swoops (not just specialist canopy pilots) to really clear their airspace before initiating a HP landing?"

I'd love to hear the comments.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Would comparing it to driving at race-car speeds (effectively, street vs. track racing) be as accurate, and maybe a little less charged? Wendy P.

You know, who asked you? I'm still working on my popcorn.

I think we should compare it to target shooting down a long, straight hallway of an elementary school during class time. As long as everyone stays in the classroom where they're supposed to be, it's all good.

I know what you are saying but I think that it is also a bad analogy. Having intentionally shot down a very long hallway with a precision rifle, I can tell you that unless you know the ballistic arc of the round you are shooting, you will find that at some point along the bullets path that it will usually hit the ceiling or any other part of the building's hallway that intersects with that trajectory before it gets to the intended target. Shorter distances, not so much of a problem.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mjosparky 3]

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No they were not.

Are you trying to say that the majority of jumpers are not landing their canopies safely? If so you are really out in left field. The majority are not dead or injured so they must be landing safely. Think before you post.

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I'd be willing to bet there were more canopy collisions and near misses in the past but since the speeds were lower the consequences were less.

And again you would be wrong. You are betting on something you know nothing about. You keep running on about we need more data and you make a statement with absolutely no data to back it up.

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As for the drunk driving anology Bill likes to keep throwing, people used to jump drunk and on drugs alot more too.

And you know this how? From the same data that you used to make your last wild ass guess in the dark statement? Yes jumpers used to jump drunk and high and I hate to break you bubble but guess what, they still do. Some of them even fly small canopies and swoop.

---

12/31/2003 - LOWT,EXC - Toxicology reports indicated he was drunk and under the influence of cocaine.

---

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The lack of landing pattern discipline and bad behaviors are not new, it's just the speeds have changed.

You are right it is not new. But lately it has been getting worse and killing people. What are your suggestions to put a stop to it now.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[theonlyski 3]

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Would comparing it to driving at race-car speeds (effectively, street vs. track racing) be as accurate, and maybe a little less charged? Wendy P.

You know, who asked you? I'm still working on my popcorn.

I think we should compare it to target shooting down a long, straight hallway of an elementary school during class time. As long as everyone stays in the classroom where they're supposed to be, it's all good.

You'll put yer eye out!
Watch for ricochet, it's the unintended bounce that ruins the fun for everybody!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[billvon 2,397]

>As for the drunk driving anology Bill likes to keep throwing, people used
>to jump drunk and on drugs alot more too.

Yes, they did. And as a sport, we (for the most part) forced them to stop, although it took a lot of threats, groundings, wailing and gnashing of teeth to force it to happen.

[Bolas 5]

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How about asking some of the REALLY good pilots - the guys who are winning all the medals what they think and to chime in?

"Do most people who have HP canopies have the skills and judgement to swoop at the end of a mixed skydive safely every time, and do you believe it's possible for eveyone who swoops (not just specialist canopy pilots) to really clear their airspace before initiating a HP landing?"

I'd love to hear the comments.

I would too but lets phrase the question better:

"Do you think someone performing a modern setup and carve turn, that identifies their bailouts prior and initiates only if there is separation by space or time and then alter/aborts if there is an unforseen issue can avoid injuring someone else?"

Especially want to make that last part clear as the issue is collisions with others: not the ground or other inanimate objects.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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You are right it is not new. But lately it has been getting worse and killing people. What are your suggestions to put a stop to it now.

Sparky

1. Before adding additional rules including the ones below, make sure the ones that exist already are enforced for all. Adding new rules that aren't enforced is just a "feel good" thing.

2. Eliminate FMD sets the pattern.

3. On L&V days establish a landing direction for the main landing area prior or even better yet, use a tetrahedron. If someone doesn't want to land that way they have to land in the alternate, no matter how many jumps they have. (This may or may not include tandems as they usually seem to need every bit of wind available sometimes from my observations)

4. Education, education, education, especially for people who break the rules above. Should they refuse or continue to break them, grounding or bannings may be in order.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.