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airtwardo

USPA's "Championship" Demo Team?

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Wow, it's fucking depressing for me, I can't imagine how depressing this is for you professional demo jumpers. I love being part of a monopoly. Thanks for everyone's posts and information. Seems like we have some rogue elements in the USPA and a bunch of BOD members who support it or don't care.

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Guys,

As a newly minted pro rated skydiver I am extremely disappointed with the concept of a USPA sanctioned demo team seeded from our membership dues. I feel that there are better alternatives that support the membership rather that take away from it. There are many professional demo teams who will all be hurt by this endeavor.

I would love to say that there was an easy way to get corporate sponsorship for our US Skydiving team but I'm pretty sure taking money from our dues to fund a team that will take money from the pockets of dues paying demo teams is a really bad way to do it.

Please, please do not go ahead with this plan and work on a better way, maybe asking the membership for ideas could yield a result that isn't so contentious and so clearly a conflict of interest.

I'm also quite concerned that this has proceeded with no input from the general membership, I do not feel that my interests or concerns have been represented.

Sincerely,
Daniel Croft
D-31103

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You're right Dave, I sent it without correcting my original wording (which I wrote before I read the whole thread). I'm just going to pretend that I meant that it should not go any further than it has... work with me here! ;)

I have two emails back from members of the BOD. Both expressed concerns with the plan but said nothing could be acted on until the next BOD meeting. I don't want put the emails in here without permission but I really hope they shut this thing down. I'm not trying to earn money from my pro rating but, for the people who are, this is absolutely ridiculous. It would be very easy to invest this time (and further money) in training existing very professional teams in areas that the USPA feel are lacking (if any?) and have a positive outcome.

I ask strongly that everyone send an email to [email protected] and express your concerns, it WILL help good people who've worked hard.

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I don't doubt that the 1st time the USPA recommends it 'own' demo team over another this WILL reach critical mass.



This has already happened. And they did it for free.

So:

1. How is a demo team going to compete against free?
2. How is the loan ever going to be paid back if they are free?

The USPA will tell you that they are going to charge... But they have already established that the 'official' USPA demo team will do the demos for free.

The USPA will say they are going after corporate sponsorship.... Well, so is every other team out there.

In essence the USPA has created a team using membership money that will compete against its own members.

As for voting the BOD out... I think that is a great idea. If you think the BOD no longer represents you, then you should step up and voice your concerns. I personally think the USPA cannot serve two masters (jumpers and dzo's).

You should do your homework.... Call and find out who still supports this idea, not all still do, and then act as you see fit.

The problem is that 99% of the jumpers do not care what the BOD does. Hell look at the BOD position for the last election in FL.... No one ran officially, and less than 500 people I think even voted.

As for the lawyer idea.... I personally don't like it. In the end WE have to pay for their defense. And it will paint skydivers in a bad light.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Here is something I'm sure USPA hasn't thought of.... When all is said and done, I'm left wondering how this situation will affect my decision next time I'm given the opportunity (USPA renewal form) to color in that little check box to donate money to the US Team? Don't get me wrong, I support the US Team. But only to a point. USPA dues are getting expensive. Then add in all the fees for ratings, certificates, etc. and it all adds up.

Now I'm left with a sour taste in my mouth over this situation. USPA should be listening when I say this! After all, you’re MY/OUR organization. This is a BAD idea and I am vehemently opposed to a USPA loan for this purpose. I feel as though I’m left with only one recourse here, to no longer donate to Team USA. The problem, I suspect, is that this whole demo team plan has nothing to do with the US Team. I do hope I’m wrong. [:/]

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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I can't argue with any of that...other than to say I really don't like the idea of getting lawyers involved.


scene one: Lutz, the yuppie lawyer throws his brand new gear bag in his hybrid SUV as he spots a character in a rather worn looking jumpsuit who appears to be grazing the small patch of grass next to the large hangar - as the camera zooms in we recognise Shutter, the camera guy that just broke up with Jillian. 'What are you doing there?' Lutz asks him.
'Well you see dude, camera flying has been kind of slow lately with everybody jumping GoPro's and Contours and al the TI's carrying one on the back of their hand - a fellow HAS to eat, now doesn't he?' Shutter replies.

Lutz looks puzzled and says: "O No - this is unethical! I can't bear the thought that any of my new found skydiving friends has to eat the grass of the DZ in order to sustain!- Come, jump into my car and drive home with me'

IMHO you can't have a believable reality show called "As the Dropzone Turns" without at least one token lawyer :)

(other than that, in the reality of your dispute you are right about the lawyers, of course)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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I can't argue with any of that...other than to say I really don't like the idea of getting lawyers involved.


scene one: Lutz, the yuppie lawyer throws his brand new gear bag in his hybrid SUV as he spots a character in a rather worn looking jumpsuit who appears to be grazing the small patch of grass next to the large hangar - as the camera zooms in we recognise Shutter, the camera guy that just broke up with Jillian. 'What are you doing there?' Lutz asks him.
'Well you see dude, camera flying has been kind of slow lately with everybody jumping GoPro's and Contours and al the TI's carrying one on the back of their hand - a fellow HAS to eat, now doesn't he?' Shutter replies.

Lutz looks puzzled and says: "O No - this is unethical! I can't bear the thought that any of my new found skydiving friends has to eat the grass of the DZ in order to sustain!- Come, jump into my car and drive home with me' wash and wax my new BMW and I'll buy you a Big Mac.


Fixed it for you... B|
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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Though I was going to get Shutter home with Lutz and bring all his fellow cameraflyers too, only to find out that they were supposed to graze Lutz's lawn the missus kept complaining about ever since our yuppie lawyer started to spend all his weekends at the Dropzone, for the right fee we can have the keen legal mind drive a BMW and give away a Big Mac of course!

That's the beauty of a good reality soap - you never know where the collective process of creative writing will lead the story line. We might even make it past season one. B|


"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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More info on the demo was done for free: As in what event, and when and where was it performed, and who paid for the airplane?





Reminds me of the old salesman saying...

"We fuck the other guy, and pass the savings on to you!"

...funny unless you are that 'other guy', which we as U$PA member$ ARE!










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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More info on the demo was done for free: As in what event, and when and where was it performed, and who paid for the airplane?



From two people at HQ. The CEO of the Code of Support Foundation called the USPA asking for the USPA's help to start off an event Sept 11th

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http://codeofsupport.org/news
The “Patriots & Heroes: Pacific to Potomac Relay,” begins September 3, 2011 in Oceanside, CA, with a rally that includes a “drop-in” by the United States Parachute Association. Nine days later, on September 11, 2011, the relay will conclude at the Pentagon in Arlington, VA.



And

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On the West Coast, the event will start with a skydiving demonstration team from the United States Parachute Association (USPA) dropping in to the beaches of Oceanside and handing off a special scroll to the motorcyclists. A highlight on the East Coast will be a special presentation of the Code at the Sprint Cup NASCAR race on the evening of Sept. 10 at the Richmond International Raceway before an expected crowd of 100,000.



I was told that the event paid for the plane, but only after being told that it was the min that the USPA could do the went for.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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More info on the demo was done for free: As in what event, and when and where was it performed, and who paid for the airplane?



From two people at HQ. The CEO of the Code of Support Foundation called the USPA asking for the USPA's help to start off an event Sept 11th

Quote

http://codeofsupport.org/news
The “Patriots & Heroes: Pacific to Potomac Relay,” begins September 3, 2011 in Oceanside, CA, with a rally that includes a “drop-in” by the United States Parachute Association. Nine days later, on September 11, 2011, the relay will conclude at the Pentagon in Arlington, VA.



And

Quote

On the West Coast, the event will start with a skydiving demonstration team from the United States Parachute Association (USPA) dropping in to the beaches of Oceanside and handing off a special scroll to the motorcyclists. A highlight on the East Coast will be a special presentation of the Code at the Sprint Cup NASCAR race on the evening of Sept. 10 at the Richmond International Raceway before an expected crowd of 100,000.



I was told that the event paid for the plane, but only after being told that it was the min that the USPA could do the went for.






...borrow money to start business that gives way the product, yeah that will work.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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...borrow money to start business that gives way the product, yeah that will work



Nobody bring this up with the USPA, you know what they'll say. "We got good pulbicity for the USPA and skydiving in general by supporting this cause. It was a charity event (I'm guessing) that honored those lost in 9/11. I'm sure there are many teams out there that would also do the jumps for free just for the privledge of paying honor to the victims and first responders from 9/11."

Granted, all of the above may be true, but all of those 'other teams' that would do the jump at no cost are living on their own dime. The USPA team is, for all intensive purposes, a 'kept' team in that they owe the whole of their existance (and $10k) to the members of the USPA.

If Steve's Car Wash wants to donate $10k to a local charity, and hope to get some publicty out of it, so be it. If Dan's Car Wash, which just opened and is in hock to investors for 100% of the start-up turns around and drops $10k on the same charity, you can bet your ass the investors are going to have a word with Dan. You can be a big shot and give away the store, but only when it's your store.

I, for one, will be waiting to see the explanation for the 'free' demo. The problem is, they can ride the, 'promotion for the team, promotion for the USPA, promotion for skydiving' excuse ad infinitum because technically demos do provide promotional opportunities for all invovled, but that's ignoring the $10k they 'borrowed', the same $10k that gets further and further from looking like it's going to be repaid the more layers we peel off this onion.

Unfortunately, it also looks like the action the USPA is going to take in the wake of the objections to this is going to be nil. We'll have to wait for the next BOD meeting, at which point it may or may not come up, and if so it may or may not be in an 'open' session with the general membership in attendance, and in any case it stands a 90% chance of being discussed and shelved until the next BOD meeting. It's neat how fast the $10k was handed out, how slow it's going to be to get anyone to talk about it, and how even slower it's going to be (if ever) repaid.

That said, this demo team business proved one thing, that the USPA can act quickly when they want to, whcih leads me to believe they just don't give two shits about any of the stuff that seems to take forever to get any attention.

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It's neat how fast the $10k was handed out, how slow it's going to be to get anyone to talk about it, and how even slower it's going to be (if ever) repaid.



I know there's been a lot of discussion about this whole mess but I haven't seen this mentioned yet.

If they can make one "loan", what will stop them from making another?

The 10k loan was for ICAS and marketing the team. They have done one demo for free. They're going to need another loan soon.

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Granted, all of the above may be true, but all of those 'other teams' that would do the jump at no cost are living on their own dime. The USPA team is, for all intensive purposes, a 'kept' team in that they owe the whole of their existence (and $10k) to the members of the USPA.

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The problem with doing a free demo is from a business stand point, you state what your product worth is...nothing.

In the 'business' of demonstration skydiving this has always been a hurdle. In a 'us against them' world, the actual professional skydivers understand that and do what they can to kind of standardize the price so customers have the idea that what we do actually has value.

It a bit tough when 'Organizer Bob' says, "You want 'X' $ but the Golden Knights do it for free..."
They don't actually do a show for 'free', the use some of the 20 million plus they get from our tax dollars to perform a recruitment program.

It is what it is so demo teams in the business swallow hard and be gracious and thankful that the Golden Knights can only do just so many shows and we fight for the scraps so to speak...of course it does rub ya a bit 'paying for your competition' to take business away, just like what the U$PA has set itself up to do.

I guess in an effort to take the WTF factor even a step further, I hear that the Golden Knights have agreed to bleed off demos that they are offered, but unavailable to perform at...TO the USPA demo team.:S

IF I hadn't spent 30 plus years trying to field a demo team I might find humor in the irony of having to pay tax dollars to support competition in the business to a team that now in turn, decides to support a new start-up team that is supported by my dues dollars?!

Might as well put some sand in the vaseline.

But back to the point of performing 'free' demos, Dave what you have to understand is that the U$PA isn't IN the demo 'business' to make money, they are in it to get sponsorship...so it matters not to them HOW much of OUR money they spend or who it hurts...just so they get the 'exposure'.

The part about paying back the 'loan' is a trivial matter to the organization, it MUST be because by performing a free demo for such & such charity only opens the door for every other 'charity' to say, since the price is set..where is the line for FREE demo jumps with these guys?

Again...this whole thing is not well thought out and fucks everybody not in the 'good ole boy' network they've established. I just really hope that when it's all said and done...if it goes as I believe it will, the membership not only raises some serious questions regarding who is spending our money how, but as in any business that fails...those at the helm are sent packing.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Well, they claim that they are after corporate sponsorships... Like the old Coors team back in the day.

They saw this demo as a way to bring attention to the USPA demo team... A way to grab some headlines.

The problem is as others have stated, by giving away the demo not only have they lowered the perceived cost of what a demo is worth, but they have put themselves ABOVE the other demo teams.

Look at it this way.... You have an airshow and want to get skydivers to jump in. You have two choices:

1. Ron's flying circus who wants you to pay for the airplane, the insurance, the materials (smoke etc), and to pay the jumpers.

2. The "official" USPA demo team who will do it for the cost of the plane.

Which would YOU pick?

The "official" demo team of THE organization of skydivers in the US, or some dude with a neat looking jumpsuit and a rating FROM the organization?

The team that will perform for FREE, or the one that wants to get paid?

Hell, I'd call the USPA as well.

By doing them for free... How are they ever going to pay back the loan? Car Salesman voice: "I lose 10 dollars on every car I sell, but I make it up in VOLUME!"

And you know how they keep saying that they will "include local qualified demo jumpers"???? Well.....

1. You will have to attend their demo training program... Isn't that what a PRO rating was supposed to do? They have no idea when it will be, what it will cover, or who will run it. And again, isn't that what the PRO rating was all about anyway?

2. You will participate... But only in some segments of the program.

The proposed program as told to me by Hayhurst.

The performers are staged through out the crowd talking to the spectators (brilliant BTW). They are called forward and come walking out of the crowd holding up flags (Again, brilliant). They all head to the aircraft, one of the jumpers could even be a disabled jumper (again brilliant).

The plane takes off and a few classic accuracy jumpers jump out and hit targets. When they land, pyro fires off... Well..... Spectators don't really like classic accuracy. They think we look stupid falling on our asses.

Then the plane lets out some CRW guys who build formations.... Good and pretty visual. End with landing some two stacks and the crowd will love it.

Then the plane lets out some wingsuit jumpers trailing smoke... The crowd will love this.

Then the plane lets out a swooper to fly in formation with an aircraft. Neat, and I bet people would love it. Better IMO would be to show the demo accuracy guys landing and then the swoopers to show the range of canopy control... ALL of the jumpers should stand up the landings.

Then some jumpers will land flags.

Of course all of this has been done to some extent before... But it is still a great plan.

The only "open" slots for local jumpers as told to me would be the flag jumpers at the end and MAYBE the WS flights. The style and acc team will do the classical accuracy, the CRW team will do the CRW, the swoop team will do the swooping.

So at each demo you MIGHT get to do the WS jump and some of you will get to fly a flag.

So if you figure:

* Classic accuracy 4 people
* CRW 4 people
* Wing suit 2-4 people
* Swoopers 2-4 people
* Flag jumpers 2-4 people

So out of 14-20 slots, 4-8 will be open for PRO rated locals.

They tried to make it out as a big deal that you will get to wear the "US team colors".... I don't know about you, but I'd rather market my own team, not someone else's team.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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That's a 1/2 an hour or so of Skydiving...at at an Air Show.

I dunno but most of the show organizers I've worked with kind of look at the Skydiving end as a necessary evil. NOT something they really want to devote 20-30% of the show time to.

In the demo business it's call the Gypsy Moths Syndrome... the misogynistic view that the demo Skydiving portion of the show is THE headliner and you have free reign to do what 'you' like to do...in reality, the jumpers are the redheaded stepchild of the industry.

The guy with the 1/2 million dollar airplane doesn't like the fact that the guy with the 1000 dollar parachute gets as much time & money as he does, that they get to land next to the crowd and play nice with the spectators while the pilot is performing his routine for less than full attention.

What the promoters want from MY experience, is a Skydiving demonstration that exits on time lands on target and gets out of the ground box in 30 seconds or less, so that the show can go on.

I've been doing this for a while, some of the BEST advice I ever got was from Jimmy Franklin who said to 100% target the audience. To take a couple of video cameras, point one at the performance and the others at the crowd...determine what gets their attention, what excites THEM and run with THAT.

The average Wuffo can't tell how hard a particular maneuver is, they can't see the airplane at 12,000' and if all they see is some smoke moving around they don't know 20 points were just completed, nor do the really care.

What works is one pass relatively low so they can see the exit, see the deployment...spread the act down the show-line so everybody gets to see a nice landing, have the flag land last and on cue.

At an airshow, you have a show-line usually stretched out along the whole of the performance 'box', if you land too close to the crowd many down the line don't see anything, too far away and only the telephoto lenses see it.

You try to spot so that the crowd doesn't have to look into the sun or behind them to see you...you time the smoke so that it's out prior to landing if the wind is blowing into the crowd because it's messy & a health hazard and many people know it.

If you get hurt, you drag your busted ass off the show-line because screaming out in pain makes the sport look bad, and stopping the show for the meat wagon throws a downer on the whole event.

There are so MANY things you learn and pick up over time that books could be (and some have been) written regarding what works and how to do it.

There probably ARE some venues that a 1/2 hour Skydiving show will work at, but I don't think the lions share will be all that interested.

And then one needs to address the costs, the show being described won't be a cheap one...just in travel expenses and per diem for that many people runs up to, even over what the average cost of what promoters are ready to spend.

Like I've said, an actual business plan with some factual research to be called upon may have been a better way to go...and in all of this I still don't see where these 'sponsors' fit in...maybe it's just me.



...and BTW: if the organizer paid for only the aircraft for the Oceanside demo, wonder who paid for the insurance?

If the U$PA did then I guess WE already are sponsoring the demo team...if there wasn't any, I bet the city of Oceanside and/or the charity involved wouldn't have been real impressed if something went sideways. :|











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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That's a 1/2 an hour or so of Skydiving...at at an Air Show.

I dunno but most of the show organizers I've worked with kind of look at the Skydiving end as a necessary evil. NOT something they really want to devote 20-30% of the show time to.

In the demo business it's call the Gypsy Moths Syndrome... the misogynistic view that the demo Skydiving portion of the show is THE headliner and you have free reign to do what 'you' like to do...in reality, the jumpers are the redheaded stepchild of the industry.

The guy with the 1/2 million dollar airplane doesn't like the fact that the guy with the 1000 dollar parachute gets as much time & money as he does, that they get to land next to the crowd and play nice with the spectators while the pilot is performing his routine for less than full attention.

What the promoters want from MY experience, is a Skydiving demonstration that exits on time lands on target and gets out of the ground box in 30 seconds or less, so that the show can go on.

I've been doing this for a while, some of the BEST advice I ever got was from Jimmy Franklin who said to 100% target the audience. To take a couple of video cameras, point one at the performance and the others at the crowd...determine what gets their attention, what excites THEM and run with THAT.

The average Wuffo can't tell how hard a particular maneuver is, they can't see the airplane at 12,000' and if all they see is some smoke moving around they don't know 20 points were just completed, nor do the really care.

What works is one pass relatively low so they can see the exit, see the deployment...spread the act down the show-line so everybody gets to see a nice landing, have the flag land last and on cue.

At an airshow, you have a show-line usually stretched out along the whole of the performance 'box', if you land too close to the crowd many down the line don't see anything, too far away and only the telephoto lenses see it.

You try to spot so that the crowd doesn't have to look into the sun or behind them to see you...you time the smoke so that it's out prior to landing if the wind is blowing into the crowd because it's messy & a health hazard and many people know it.

If you get hurt, you drag your busted ass off the show-line because screaming out in pain makes the sport look bad, and stopping the show for the meat wagon throws a downer on the whole event.

There are so MANY things you learn and pick up over time that books could be (and some have been) written regarding what works and how to do it.

There probably ARE some venues that a 1/2 hour Skydiving show will work at, but I don't think the lions share will be all that interested.

And then one needs to address the costs, the show being described won't be a cheap one...just in travel expenses and per diem for that many people runs up to, even over what the average cost of what promoters are ready to spend.



Jim - you should send that advice in to the USPA with a $1500 consultancy bill. :)
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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Jim - you should send that advice in to the USPA with a $1500 consultancy bill. :)

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Yeah but it would come out of the general fund, then I would just be fuckin' the members of an organization I pay dues to be a part of, wouldn't be ethical! ;)











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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