-ftp- 0 #26 December 9, 2011 Quotewhy does everybody want me to get something loaded 1.0 or less? Because you clearly think you know enough and have enough experience to justify something higher, and YOU DONT! QuoteIn all these threads you guys sa: talk with your instructors. Guess what? thats just what Iæve been doing. And yes, i jump at a very serious DZ in Norway, so I trust them. Well if they are telling you to buy gear based on pack volume (I highly doubt they are) then they do not have your best interests in mind. QuoteI got a suggestion for a setup form a rig manufacturer. This was two different containersizes and with different canopies (not different sizes). Then the easy answer is buy the one that fits the canopies you wish to jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kentAllan 0 #27 December 9, 2011 Ok, So if you guys had the cash to buy custom gear as your first, You'll rather get raggedy old stuff just because the "cool guys" would respect you more? I've actually been working my ass off to get the money for both new equipment and a trip to the US to jump. I want to get the Safire2. the reason I asked the original qustion was bec. I wanted to know if I could use the safire 179 in the same container as the pulse 190. I guess it has boiled down to a NO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #28 December 9, 2011 QuoteI'll get a Main that I AM ALLOWED TO JUMP and same with the reserve. If you look hard enough, you'll find people that will allow you to jump virtually any canopy in existence. QuoteThe handbook says that I can jump a canopy wich is laoded maximum 1.1499, why does everybody want me to get something loaded 1.0 or less? 1.1499 is the MAXIMUM wingloading. You'd be smart to get something at a lower wingloading than that. Going right up to the maximum allowed right on your first rig? Not a good sign, at all. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #29 December 9, 2011 QuoteOk, So if you guys had the cash to buy custom gear as your first, You'll rather get raggedy old stuff just because the "cool guys" would respect you more? I've actually been working my ass off to get the money for both new equipment and a trip to the US to jump. I want to get the Safire2. the reason I asked the original qustion was bec. I wanted to know if I could use the safire 179 in the same container as the pulse 190. I guess it has boiled down to a NO. No, I decided back then that I'd rather get used gear in good condition so that I have more money to spend on jumping and tunnel time and coaching so I can be a better skydiver. Shiny new gear doesn't do anything to make you a better skydiver. I've been in the sport 7 1/2 years. Last week I just received my first brand-new, custom-built rig. Why? Because when I started, I was patient and found a great deal on a nearly-new used rig that has served me very well for those seven years. It was a 2003 container and reserve that I bought in 2005 with only 10 jumps on it, and only one pack job on that reserve. I spent considerably less than I would have spent on the equivalent new, yet it wasn't anything close to "raggedy old stuff." Into that I put a main that had 450 jumps. After 200 jumps on that one, I put in a main that had 200 jumps on it. After 300 jumps on that one, I actually put in a brand-new main. And the only reason I bought that one new is that it was a model that was new to the market and at the time there weren't any used. Now that I'm putting together a second rig, I bought a second main - used, and a second reserve - used. And two AADs - used (but a newer model than the one I had, so I'll sell the old one and get quite a bit of value out of it). Careful, thoughtful purchasing has given me more financial freedom to buy things custom that have helped me be a better jumper - like jumpsuits. And to jump, to buy tunnel time, to pay for coaching (both in the air and in the tunnel), to pay for team training, to travel to boogies and training events and nationals, etc."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kentAllan 0 #30 December 9, 2011 What if I can afford both custom gear and jumping,coaching and windtunnel? Here is the point ; I live in Norway. the used market in the sizes I need is wery small. I'm a average built guy who needs a main in the area of 170-210. thats more or less 90% of all norwegians who take their aff. I'ts close to impossible for me to get hold of something used. I'm going to the US to jumt in march, and I will get my new gear there because of obvious reasons. I have actually been looking for used gear since the end of july. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #31 December 9, 2011 Then go for it. I could have afforded both, too, but chose not to because I have lots of other things I like to spend/save my money on. The other thing to think about is that it's not an either/or proposition. You can buy some components new and some components used. I bought a new AAD with my first rig and the other three components (container, main, reserve) used."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #32 December 9, 2011 "QuoteVolume measurement isn't exactly scientific. ..." ........................................................................ Volume measurement can be scientific, if canopies are measured under the same temperature, same humidity, same test cylinder etc. However, problems arise when you start comparing measurements from different sources. Back during the 1980s, canopy manufacturers published a variety of data about canopy surface area, canopy volume, forward speed, rate of descent, etc. but problems arose when they allowed marketing managers to publish data. Quick quiz! Who can tell the difference between a marketing manager and a compulsive liar? During the early 1980s, the Parachute Industry agreed on a single standard for measuring canopies. Since data published by canopy manufacturers had been discredited, the task fell to container manufacturers like Rigging Innovations. Canopy manufacturers could publish any data they liked, but when things did not fit (e.g. were a struggle to pack) container manufacturers got stuck with replacing brand-new containers with the next larger size. GRRRRR! When (mid 1990s) I worked for Rigging Innovations, I test-packed dozens of Talon 2, Genera, Aviator, Telesis 2, etc. prototypes. If I said that reserve "X" was a struggle to pack into that size of Talon 2, it was deleted from the recommended list. After packing the first PD113 reserves - on the West Coast - my comments could not be repeated in polite company! I eventually taught myself how to pack the smallest PD reserves into the smallest Talons, but it was never an easy process. Meanwhile, Sandy Reid was on the other side of the loft stuffing the next new canopy into his volume-testing cylinder. Hundreds of Sandy's measurements were published by PIA. Para-Gear's list has not been updated in a long time. Instead, Para-Gear prefers to let container manufacturers decide which size of new container will be the best fit for specified canopies. The reason that PIA has not published much new data recently is that the speed of canopy development has slowed. And PIA can only publish data on canopies that have been loaned to Rigging Innovations for a few weeks. Keep in mind that Rigging Innovations did all of its canopy volume tests in the Southern California desert and the Arizona desert. If you took the same canopy and same testing cylinder and repeated the tests in a humid environment - like Florida - volumes would be ten or twenty percent smaller. Bottom line, you will only get reliable canopy volume measurements from container manufacturers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ftp- 0 #33 December 9, 2011 QuoteWha I'm a average built guy who needs a main in the area of 170-210. thats more or less 90% of all norwegians who take their aff. yeah, and that is also the most common size of gear for sale as well. Seriously, if you dont care about money, go buy brand new. Nobody cares, you come on here for help, then spit in peoples faces when you don't hear what you want to hear. Oh, why bother.......do what you want. Its pretty obvious you're going to do that anyways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #34 December 9, 2011 QuoteI have a memory from long ago of an article in "Parachutist" which explained how this was done. There was a big clear lexan cylinder somewhere, Hey John, I found PIA TS-104 from '87 online, which has a description of the procedure although not the equipment and environment. It seems a good attempt at determining volume, and I certainly wish the numbers would come out consistently, but some in the industry seem to think it doesn't. That's all I can say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kentAllan 0 #35 December 9, 2011 Thanx for a very good answer. This was why I asked if anyone with hands on excperience could give me a pointer regarding this. In my case, It's the rig manufacturer who have told me that I can pack a 190 pulse in their 170 container. The reason I was asking about the packing volume between pulse and safire2 is that i want the safire2 the most. regarding the reserves I sked because the person I talked with there did't have any knowledge regarding the speed 2000. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #36 December 9, 2011 QuoteOk, So if you guys had the cash to buy custom gear as your first, You'll rather get raggedy old stuff just because the "cool guys" would respect you more? I've actually been working my ass off to get the money for both new equipment and a trip to the US to jump. It's not about the "cool guys" respecting raggedy gear. They respect you far more for just jumping and jumping and jumping. Shiny new means nothing if it won't last you for the longer haul. I would recommend getting or borrowing (do NOT rent) a used rig that is fit for your present abilities/needs. Over the next couple hundred jumps you will come to want something more sporty so why be stuck with a brand new "old mans" rig. Secondly I usually buy a main container sized for the next larger canopy to make packing that much easier. Having an additional 10cubes to fit a static charged and fluffy dry main into makes it a lot less frustrating to pack especially new ZP!!! In the airplane biz we say "Buy your last airplane first." Get the one that will fit the mission best. jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #37 December 9, 2011 >Ok, So if you guys had the cash to buy custom gear as your first, You'll rather get >raggedy old stuff . . . . Yes, because I would figure I didn't know what I would want, and thus wouldn't want to waste my money on something I'd just be selling in six months. I'd rather save the money and spend it on jumps (and someday gear that I really wanted.) But there's nothing wrong with buying all new if you have the money. >I wanted to know if I could use the safire 179 in the same container as the pulse 190. It is likely that both would fit the same container. (Assuming you mean Safire2 179 and Pulse 190.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kentAllan 0 #38 December 9, 2011 Thanx Jon. But as I said in one of my last post.. I dont jump in the US. the prices of renting gear in norway is sick. When I want to downsize more than I can in my first container (wich will pack a 150 as the smallest) in 5 years, i will not have any problems selling it here, because its not many of the bigger size rigs and canopies on the used market up here. Btw; a new rig that would cost you 7000$ in the us will cost a norwegian about 9000. thats why I actually go over the pond to get it myself and pay what it's really worth.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #39 December 9, 2011 Quote QuoteI have a memory from long ago of an article in "Parachutist" which explained how this was done. There was a big clear lexan cylinder somewhere, Hey John, I found PIA TS-104 from '87 online, which has a description of the procedure although not the equipment and environment. It seems a good attempt at determining volume, and I certainly wish the numbers would come out consistently, but some in the industry seem to think it doesn't. That's all I can say. I seem to recall that the amount of weight placed on top of the canopy in the cylinder started out as "one John Sherman", as he was the one who came up with this standardized way of measuring canopy volume. But then it was pointed out that Mr. Sherman's weight would vary from season to season, and so the weight was changed to a fixed amount of barbell weights, which don't vary with the season. It was probably a lot easier for John to just sit on top, instead of lifting a couple hundred pounds of barbell weights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #40 December 9, 2011 QuoteI can't understand why every question in here about canopy sizes becomes a wingload discussion? Hmmm.... I can't think of too many times that I got myself into a stupid situation under canopy and thought "Damn I wish I had a smaller canopy overhead!". Even when I got in trouble on a windy day, my big canopy saved my ass. My most recent jump was a cutaway. Having a big Optimum 235 overhead SLOWED EVERYTHING DOWN.... and made my pattern and off-DZ landing EASY.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Electronaut 0 #41 December 9, 2011 Something also to remember, that pack volumes can vary up to 10% depending on manufacturing variances of not just the skin and ribs of the canopy, but also all the other components that make up the canopy: the reinforcing tapes, the line attachment tapes, and the lines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kentAllan 0 #42 December 9, 2011 Thanx for all inputs. I have a man In florida who will check with riggers and manufacturers wich canopy would fit the different rigs the best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #43 December 10, 2011 QuotePD doesn't publish volumes for their newer canopies PD does publish pack volumes for their reserves. It's in the Reserve Manual available for download on their website. Optimum - Cu.In. OP-99 - 228 OP-106 - 239 OP-113 - 250 OP-126 - 271 OP-143- 298 OP-160- 331 OP-176- 355 OP-193- 402 OP-218- 438 OP-235- 475 OP-253- 512 PD-R - Cu.In. PD-113R - 305 PD-126R - 314 PD-143R - 358 PD-160R - 385 PD-176R - 413 PD-193R - 468 PD-218R - 509 PD-235R - 553 PD-253R - 597 PD-281R - 749 The Speed 2000 pack volumes are on Paratec's website: Size - Cu.In. 120 - 221 135 - 248 150 - 266 170 - 307 190 - 322 220 - 344 250 - 393It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #44 December 10, 2011 Quote Thanx for all inputs. I have a man In florida who will check with riggers and manufacturers wich canopy would fit the different rigs the best. Ummm??? Is that code for "I'm dismissing you all from further comment on this subject? Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kentAllan 0 #45 December 10, 2011 haha.. No :) As for the manufacturers lists, I know, but as people in this thread has pointed out, it doesn't allways tell you the truth.. I don't care anymore. I let someone else deal with this stuff. it this pont I just pay it, and I'm happy with that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #46 December 10, 2011 Quote Something also to remember, that pack volumes can vary up to 10% depending on manufacturing variances of not just the skin and ribs of the canopy, but also all the other components that make up the canopy: the reinforcing tapes, the line attachment tapes, and the lines. Let's not forget the packer/rigger. Differences in packing techniques and experience could make a difference too!"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kentAllan 0 #47 December 10, 2011 Just to set things straight here... I dont have any gear yet. I'm looking at two different sizes of Containers. The manufacturer gave me an idea of putting a 190 pulse in their 170 container. The reason I ask about packingvolumes between the pulse and the safire2 is because my instructors gave me the advice to get one, because they think it's a good canopy for me. I Could actually Jump a 170 with the weight im at now, but I'd rather get a 180 or a 190. The reason I'm asking about the safire 179 vs the pulse 190 is that I think its obvious that the 190 safire will not fit. As for getting used stuff for my first rig. great ida, I have really tried hard to get it. But as stated im my previous post the market for rigs wich fit me and my first canopy is small in norway. If I could find decent used gear used in Norway I would't have made this thread. As for me buying new stuff in the us, the price i will pay for it is actually 25% lower than the total price would be in norway due to tax. The guy wich is helping me with the setup is looking for used man & reserve, but if he dont find something I'll get all the gear new. As for respect form experienced jumpers I couldn't actually care less. We all have different approaches to different things. I have worked my ass off to get the money for this gear and I can afford jumping as well. I'm not spitting in anyones faces either. I just wanted to know wich would pack the smaller due to picking one of two canopies for the setup I got from the manufacturer. I guess the used market in the US is quite big, and prices are different than in Norway. I could buy used gear back home and pay 4-5000$ for gear from 2000-2005 but I actually think it's more value in it for me to get new gear while in the states and bring it back home without paying the tax. In 2-3-4 years I can still sell it and allmost get my money back because of the small used market. And avg. high prices for used gear here. I hope this clearyfies some things regarding this whole Idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #48 December 10, 2011 Scroll down to the bottom of the page and look at "Javelin med sabre 170sqf". Unless "average sized Norwegian", is goofysized it should fit you. And for aprox 1/4 of the new price. http://www.uffeshoppshop.se/index.php?dnode=49 Just a hint... 170 or 179 is no difference Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kentAllan 0 #49 December 10, 2011 Thanx, but thats way to old for what I'm looking for. If I have that for a few years I will never get it sold again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #50 December 10, 2011 I think what we are all saying here and what you obviously are missing is: You won't keep your first rigg for a couple of years. And knowing the jumpticket prices in Norway, I would rather put those money on jumptickets than a rig. Because a jumpticket will get you closer to a downsize, a new rig will not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
