Crabby Pilots

[fasted3 0]

I've jumped at quite a few places, and met a lot of pilots. As a wingsuit flier, it is an important safety aspect of the pre-flight for me to at least let them know I'm going to be flying on the jump. Most pilots will point out jump run and listen to my flight plan. Many are quite helpful, and some are very cheerful. Some have become good friends.
There's a few though...
"I'll be flying a wingsuit."
"Big fucking deal."
Comes to mind...
Now I do try to pick my time to talk to them. I understand that there are times to leave them alone. I get that.
I think a few are just plain crabby.
Anybody else ever run into this?
Discussion point: Dumb things skydivers do that piss off pilots.
The object of this thread is to promote communications between skydivers and pilots, thus improving safety, and to find ways to smooth our interactions and avoid conflict.
Amusing anectdotes welcome. I'll start.
One guy told me about when he farted in a 206 on the way to altitude. The pilot, realizing the offender was right by the door thereupon turned the aircraft 90 degrees, dumping him out.
The guy did have farts that could peel paint off the walls.
Still, an example of a grumpy pilot and poor communications.

But what do I know?

[theonlyski 3]

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One guy told me about when he farted in a 206 on the way to altitude. The pilot, realizing the offender was right by the door thereupon turned the aircraft 90 degrees, dumping him out.
The guy did have farts that could peel paint off the walls.
Still, an example of a grumpy pilot and poor communications.

Sounds more like the pilot was worried for the guy and didn't want him to experience any more rapid decompression.

Most of the pilots I've ever even bullshitted with were pretty easy to get along with, answered questions about jump run and generally tried to accomidate us.

Was it a bad day or was it that pilot's normal attitude? If it's normal, talk to the DZO and tell them why you're taking your money elsewhere. Probably solve that problem REAL quick. (but you know this already)

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[riggerrob 558]

Jump-pilots are a lot like bus drivers in that they have to tolerate the same foolishiness day-in-and-day-out. But are never allowed to lose their tempers.

Picture this: last night I was driving a bus around Vancouver when a passenger walks on - holding a fresh case of beer - and tries to give me a sob story about not having enough cash for bus fare.....

Jump-pilots work long hours, in noisy, cramped, smelly, shaky, questionably-maintained, old airplanes. Pilots get hungry, tired, thirsty, task-saturated, like everybody else.
They also put up with far more passenger high-jinks than TSA - or any professional airline - would permit.

I remember one DZ- where I used to work. Due to an agreement with air traffic controllers, only the pilot was allowed to open the (Cessna) door and only after he/she had permission from air traffic controllers. But every time we hired a new pilot (usually once a year) a couple of senior instructors would always argue with the new pilot that they (instructors) were allowed to operate the door handle.
It was a childish game to watch!
It is not the first silly thing said by a jumper - rather it is the hundredth silly thing said by a jumper - that makes jump-pilots lose their tempers.

And they wonder why pilots get cranky!

[fasted3 0]

Not looking to solve that particular case really, but some pilots do have a touchy reputation, seems to me. Not necessarily a reason to go somewhere else, but something I'd like to improve on, especially if it were my regular DZ. BTW, I do have an excellent relationship with the pilots at my regular places.
And good one for the rapid decompression, lol.

But what do I know?

[fasted3 0]

I hear ya. I'm glad I'm not a pilot or a bus driver.

But what do I know?

[D22369 0]

one of our pilots was a great guy, but George would once in a while get into a mood - he was in one on a particular day when I was spotting, my 10 left followed by 10 more left ten seconds later was enough to get him yelling would you give me one goddamn change, how fucking hard is that? *(he was freaking out) however we did get our correction and we discussed his acting unprofessional in front of students once on the ground later in the day when he was feeling better.

George once threw the entire plane load out at 6k rather than full altitude since someone would not quit stinking up the plane, the guy doing it obviously had something really wrong internally and it was unbelievable - the open door was not enough we were glad to get out.

one pilot refused to fly anymore that day unless the person who was stinking up the plane was identified and banned from jumping till he took a crap.

the funniest grumpy fucker ever was somewhere in 1999-2000 the dzo Bob Hannigan was flying our 206, we were doing a six person tracking dive - he was in a pissy mood and called for the door while we were over the horn rapids dam in west richland, our "holy shit we arnt anywhere near the dz" and our command of 90 right was met with "get the fuck out or land with the plane" Livendive here on dz.com stuck his head back in the plane and yelled "at least tell em to warm up the goddamn truck" - I am not sure of the exact distance however its at least 6 miles of nothing but sagebrush - his explanation for throwing us out so far from the dz was that if we could track worth a shit we wouldnt have had a problem.

ahh good times - at least the pissy pilots are memorableroy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[-ftp- 0]

did you make it back?

[JohnRich 4]

I was in a C-182 once, bored on the long climb to alititude. I played with the cables in the ceiling that run from the controls to the ailerons, pulling on them slightly. The pilot felt it in the yoke, and looked out at the wings to see what was going on. I quickly retracted my hand and played innocent. Then a few minutes later, I did it again. This time the pilot realized I was messing with him. We were at about 6k, and he turned toward the spot, threw oppen the door, and yelled "GET OUT!" We all just kind of looked at him, and said; "Is there an aircraft emergency?" Everything seemed to be fine. Then he yelled "GET OUT!" again. Well, okay, I guess we better do it. Our 4-way climbed out and exited normally.

Back on the ground he berated me mercifully for messing with his flight controls, and made it clear that I should never do that again. He took his flying seriously. He was right. We became good friends.

And yes, I know to make sure that those cables get re-seated in the little groove in the pulley wheel.

[Marisan 0]

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I was in a C-182 once, bored on the long climb to alititude. I played with the cables in the ceiling that run from the controls to the ailerons, pulling on them slightly. The pilot felt it in the yoke, and looked out at the wings to see what was going on. I quickly retracted my hand and played innocent. Then a few minutes later, I did it again. This time the pilot realized I was messing with him. We were at about 6k, and he turned toward the spot, threw oppen the door, and yelled "GET OUT!" We all just kind of looked at him, and said; "Is there an aircraft emergency?" Everything seemed to be fine. Then he yelled "GET OUT!" again. Well, okay, I guess we better do it. Our 4-way climbed out and exited normally.

Back on the ground he berated me mercifully for messing with his flight controls, and made it clear that I should never do that again. He took his flying seriously. He was right. We became good friends.

And yes, I know to make sure that those cables get re-seated in the little groove in the pulley wheel.

We used to do that until the pilot explained what could happen.

We stopped then

[monkycndo 0]

Most of the pilots are fantastic. There is the occasional Grumpy Gus. Being a wingsuiter, I tend to sit up next to the pilot and always try to say thanks for the elevator ride just before heading to the door. If the plane is an otter or Casa where they might not see me getting on, so I'll hold open my wings as they taxi to the loading area so they know they have a bird on board.

You want to keep the pilot happy?
Hand them the manifest sheet unfolded.
On take off and the last few minutes minutes before exit, don't try and have a conversation with them. They are busy with possible traffic/setting up for jump run and communicating with ATC.
Bring them a bottle of water or a candy bar since they often don't have time to get it themselves.
After they have put the plane to bed, hand them a cold frosty beverage.
Smile.

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You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[sacex250 0]

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Back on the ground he berated me mercifully for messing with his flight controls, and made it clear that I should never do that again.

He berated you mercifully? Well, good thing it wasn't done mercilessly!

It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

[DSE 3]

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Most of the pilots are fantastic. There is the occasional Grumpy Gus. Being a wingsuiter, I tend to sit up next to the pilot and always try to say thanks for the elevator ride just before heading to the door. If the plane is an otter or Casa where they might not see me getting on, so I'll hold open my wings as they taxi to the loading area so they know they have a bird on board.

You want to keep the pilot happy?
Hand them the manifest sheet unfolded.
On take off and the last few minutes minutes before exit, don't try and have a conversation with them. They are busy with possible traffic/setting up for jump run and communicating with ATC.
Bring them a bottle of water or a candy bar since they often don't have time to get it themselves.
After they have put the plane to bed, hand them a cold frosty beverage.
Smile.

Buying them a Domino's gift certificate every now and again doesn't hurt either. Wingies often want special favors.

[monkycndo 0]

One more thing, if you are launching a big ass chunk, tell the pilot. They can get awful grumpy having to fight a stall because you have too much meat hanging outside with a verrrry long count.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[jct 0]

Telling the pilot you're flying a wingsuit really means nothing for the most part. If anything it just means you are going to make his life more difficult by asking for a longer spot, etc. My response to that statement, or a question about what to do while flying your wingsuit is usually "Don't hit anyone". You can't expect your pilot to know your capabilities, as he might not even be a skydiver/wingsuiter.

When you are jumping at a large DZ flying turbine aircraft, you can for the most part be assured that this isn't your pilots first trip to the rodeo. Obey the green light! He knows the winds, and knows the spot, and how deep he can take it before needing a 2nd pass. Our nightmare is having people land out. However, just because you want to land right in front of the packing area instead of out in the field (but on the DZ), isn't a reason to demand a go around. He most likely has managers and people in manifest staring at a timer, expecting him to be on the ramp to pick up the next load on a schedule. This bring me to my next point...

Know your loading order, know which aircraft you are supposed to be on, and be geared up and ready to go well before the plane is sitting there idling burning expensive fuel. Nothing is more irritating than seeing the jumpers get into the mock up right as you pull into the ramp, or jumpers getting on the wrong aircraft causing mass confusion and delay.

Ask the pilot for the upper winds, and plan your exits accordingly. Take into account the time it takes to climb into the door and get your group ready for exit. It's extremely frustrating to give the light to open the door and check the spot over a mile before the green light, only to turn the green light on and have the jumpers dink around and weasel away half a mile of jump run, most likely leading me to have to do an unnecessary 2nd pass... costing extra fuel, time on the airplane, etc.

Overall, I wish more jumpers would realize that they are getting a BARGAIN by getting a ride in a Twin Turbine aircraft to 14,000 MSL for $25. I know my DZ charges around $22 a MINUTE for aircraft use ($1300/hr). We burn on average 30 gallons in a 20 minute run, which is close to $150 in fuel costs alone. Do your part by not wasting time in the door, etc. Your pilot will appreciate it, and your jump tickets will stay low (hopefully!)

[dninness 4]

We had a female pilot start flying at the DZ where I'd started jumping back in the 1990s. She was rumored to be a CFI and looking for more flying work.

So she flew a couple times with the DZO, and then was turned loose on us skydivers. It was a small C-182 DZ.

And you know that skydivers are not the sort to break in a "new to us" pilot very gently. One Saturday she's flying the plane, and by all accounts was a pretty good jump pilot. The usual hijinks in the plane, but nobody managed to get the aircraft key on jump run.

Mid afternoon, the plane lands, taxis up and she gets out. We thought she was going to the ladies room or something, but she walks right past manifest to her car, gets in and drives away.

There was a small store at the end of the driveway to the DZ, so maybe she's going to get a soda and a sandwich or something.

And then she doesn't come back.

About 20 minutes later, the DZO comes out, says "Where the hell is our pilot?"

We all shrug our shoulders and make noises and point out that we think she went to the store.

Someone hops in their car and drives out to the store. She's nowhere to be found.

We later found out that she'd quit on the spot, just didn't bother to tell the DZO. Apparently one of the regulars was trying to stink her out of the plane all day and finally succeeded. Guess the smell offended her delicate sensibilities.

I've had other grumpy pilots in my day, usually cuz they didn't get laid or someone drank their beer the night before.

NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

[DSE 3]

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Telling the pilot you're flying a wingsuit really means nothing for the most part. If anything it just means you are going to make his life more difficult by asking for a longer spot, etc. My response to that statement, or a question about what to do while flying your wingsuit is usually "Don't hit anyone". You can't expect your pilot to know your capabilities, as he might not even be a skydiver/wingsuiter.

really?
There's just a little more to it than that at many DZ's. Most pilots aren't wingsuiters, and that's why they kinda like being educated a little. At least the many that I've come across do.
Not every other kind of skydiver can get in the way of the aircraft pretty easily, not every other kind of skydiver is still in the plane for 30-60 seconds after the last tandem, and not every kind of skydiver can easily hit the tail. Many pilots are afraid of wingsuiters, so sharing a beer, conversation, and a good relationship with the pilot is usually a mutually beneficial thing.

Depending on the DZ and pilot, I disagree with "obey the green light." Of course have your group ready to go as you know you're getting near jump run, get the door open on the yellow (if you have one) and be climbing out AFTER you've verified the spot. On more than one occasion I've known pilots to flip the green at the wrong time. Saw someone badly hurt because they "obeyed the green" and exited nearly 2 miles from the DZ.

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your points.

[EatSleepFly 0]

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Jump-pilots work long hours, in noisy, cramped, smelly, shaky, questionably-maintained, old airplanes. Pilots get hungry, tired, thirsty, task-saturated, like everybody else.
They also put up with far more passenger high-jinks than TSA - or any professional airline - would permit.

I think you hit the nail on the head, but maybe it wouldn't hurt to gently remind them (at least the time-builders) that maybe they should enjoy the job while they can. Someday they will be thousands of miles from home in some bumblef*ck city/country on Christmas day, away from family and friends so someone else can be with theirs, on day 7 with some dickwad they can't stand, eating feline teriyaki from a Chinese joint in a strip mall because nothing else is open.

Then they will look back on their time flying jumpers and realize it was the most fun flying they've ever done BECAUSE they spent long hours in noisy, cramped, smelly, shaky, questionably-maintained old airplanes. And hung out with fun people. And went home every night.

Unfortunately... that doesn't (usually) pay the bills.

Not excusing their behavior, but be gentle with the cranky ones... regardless of how it looks from the outside, flying for a living can often be a tough career- even for those of us who get lucky and get the relatively cushy jobs.

[jrh 0]

Pilots in the skydiving industry cover the entire spectrum of personalities and professionalism. I don't even try to generalize.

I've met some really excellent, highly trained, professional aviators in the front of jump aircraft.

But I've also met a few who couldn't fly their way out of a wet paper bag to save their life. The only reason I was willing to get in the plane with them was because I knew if I could make it through the takeoff and initial climb, I'd probably live by just bailing out if anything went wrong. I didn't trust them to do *anything* correctly in case of an emergency. They weren't even flying to private pilot standards. The only reason they kept working is because the DZ couldn't find anyone else to cover the shift.

This lack of training/professionalism at some DZs is an industry-wide problem, IMO. You'd never see it in an airline or military environment, but then again, those genres are funded entirely differently than DZs. Mix shoestring budgets and very little oversight, and you'll get unpredictable quality.

Back to the matter at hand--no matter who you're dealing with, the same rules for social interactions applies just as much to pilots as anyone else. Keep your cool and try to get them to understand where you're coming from. If they still don't get it, you have two options: Keep jumping anyway. Or not. It's your choice.

In one case, I was jumping with a pilot at a Cessna DZ who would consistently fly jump run at 110 knots--not really dangerous, but super annoying. He was terrified of stalling. We talked to him on numerous occasions but we couldn't get him to slow down for us.

But for some reason, he'd slow it down to a nice, reasonable 80 knots for static line students. Once I found this out, every jump I went on, even though it was the same as any other jump, I'd always tell him, "Hey, we're trying a new type of exit, can you fly jump run like we're static liners?" Worked like a charm. I felt like I was talking to a monkey, but it worked.

[Baksteen 84]

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time-builders

Reminds me of a funny story..
I recently met a person who left their job to get their pilot's licence in pursuit of their dream of becoming a captain on an airliner.

That licence is in the pocket, but I know that doesn't mean they have enough hours to fly an airliner, or even something like a Caravan.
So I told said person that they might like to become a jump pilot and that way build some more hours and work their way up to bigger aircraft. The person gave me a condecending look and literally said "that no airline would take a guy seriously who spent their time on a job like flying skydivers" or [towing advertisements] or for that matter any other kind of GA. They then went on to say that the first thing to do was to find a job with an airliner and then start building hours while flying for them. Since this person was easily over thirty (conservative estimate) I just shook my head at them and walked away.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[popsjumper 2]

Unbelievable...19 posts and nobody has mention Mike Mullins.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Southern_Man 0]

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Depending on the DZ and pilot, I disagree with "obey the green light." Of course have your group ready to go as you know you're getting near jump run, get the door open on the yellow (if you have one) and be climbing out AFTER you've verified the spot. On more than one occasion I've known pilots to flip the green at the wrong time. Saw someone badly hurt because they "obeyed the green" and exited nearly 2 miles from the DZ.

I've always been taught that the green light means "permission to exit at your discretion" not that you "must exit now." Not sure if that is the same way everywhere. On the other hand, if the pilot has not turned on the green light, or has turned it off, it means you positively may not exit.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[kuai43 7]

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Unbelievable...19 posts and nobody has mention Mike Mullins.

Ha. First time I flew in his plane, the initial briefing point was "If you fart, he will drop you where you are"

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[airtwardo 6]

We were jumping an air show in Mansfield, Ohio years ago...only available aircraft with a qualified and semi-willing pilot was a Cherokee 6.

The guy said he had lots of diver-driver experience and 'had seen it all'...we thoroughly brief the pilots flying us for demos anyway, just in case.

Mr. Pilot did about as well as could be expected, kinda hard to set up the spot with the low-wing, small door & all kinds of demo junk hanging off ya...timing is critical at shows and there was a bit of stress communicating back forth during the opening act, less so for the mid-show jump.

Then came the Night Pyro Jump

...four LARGE guys with 80+ pounds of bombs strapped all over 'em, hot & muggy, short strip, night time, eveybody is tired...what could possibly go wrong?

We gear up an hour and a half prior to take off and practice everything.

Even just moving inside the aircraft, doing gear checks, arming the pyro prior to exit, we simulate one or more bombs going off in the cabin ...and who does what when where & how.

We've done this drill countless times, so it goes fairly quick.

I can see the pilot watchin' from outside and his eyebrows are going ever higher with each disaster scenario we act out...


I work to calm his nerves sayin' stuff like ~

The skydiver exploding INSIDE the airplane almost never happens...anymore!



Everyone is all squared away, sittin' up & belted down as we get ready to crank and taxi.

...immediately after the mag check, I give the team a 'spark clips out and on' command.

We ground ourselves to the aircraft, cheap insurance with electrically fired pyro...

The pilot looks over at me in absolute HORROR...
"Static charge can ignite those?"

"In theory I guess yeah, never wanted to prove it though..." I told him.

He stood on the binders hard, right there on the taxiway...
"Everybody Stay Where They ARE!"
as he cut the spinner off, set the brakes and steps outside...

"FUCK THIS!" ~ is all I hear, as he's fast walkin' the center-line down & away.



Inside the airplane it's crickets...total silence from all of us.

Until the spotter whispers up ~
Hey Twardo,..ummm.... I don't think he's comin' BACK!



Crabby bastard DIDN'T!


~Guess he hadn't really SEEN IT ALL... after all!!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[riggerrob 558]

"

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... Ask the pilot for the upper winds, and plan your exits accordingly. Take into account the time it takes to climb into the door and get your group ready for exit. It's extremely frustrating to give the light to open the door and check the spot over a mile before the green light, only to turn the green light on and have the jumpers dink around and weasel away half a mile of jump run, most likely leading me to have to do an unnecessary 2nd pass... costing extra fuel, time on the airplane, etc.

...

"

..........................................................................

Which reminds me of the concept of "pre-spotting."

Basically, hang your eyeballs out a window for the last couple of minutes - before jump-run - so that you know where you are and can make quick, INFORMED - decisions about the spot.

[theonlyski 3]

So, which one of you guys fired the plane back up and flew it?

'the show MUST go on!'

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message