Wing Loading Saber 2 170

[jayrech 0]

So I have done a bit of math and figured I would be loading a Saber 2 170 at about 1.5 with my current weight. I am curious if there is any one out there who has loaded this particular canopy in the same range and how did they like it.
Thanks

D.S 174.2

Be careful what you say. Some one might take it the right way.

[faulk04 0]

200 jumps and 1.5 wl with 5 years in the sport?


I jump a sabre 2 170 at 1.2 and love it. The flare is amazing compared to the few other canopies I have jumped

[monkycndo 0]

Not in the same size, but I had a SA2 150 at that loading. I got it at about 400 jumps. It was a zippy canopy and fun to fly. I chose to sell it because I didn't like the frequent off heading openings.

If the jump numbers in your profile are correct, going to 1.5 at 200 jumps is being very aggressive, even for a 170. Especially if those jumps are evenly spread over the 5 years you have been jumping. I would advise against any 170 canopy.

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[AggieDave 6]

I've put a decent number of jumps on a SA2-170 loaded at 1.7:1. It flew really well and would really swoop when pushed.

With that said, that is much too high of a wingloading for you if your time in sport/jump numbers are correct.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[likestojump 3]

I have loaded Sabre2's up to 2.0 and they flew fine, but felt quite aggressive :)

[billvon 2,384]

>So I have done a bit of math and figured I would be loading a Saber 2 170 at about
>1.5 with my current weight. I am curious if there is any one out there who has loaded
>this particular canopy in the same range and how did they like it.

At your exit weight and experience I would strongly recommend not going below about 200 square feet. A Sabre2-210, a Safire2-209 or a Pilot 210 would all be good choices. I've jumped the Pilot 210 at about a 1 to 1 loading and liked it a lot.

[chuckakers 370]

Quote

So I have done a bit of math and figured I would be loading a Saber 2 170 at about 1.5 with my current weight. I am curious if there is any one out there who has loaded this particular canopy in the same range and how did they like it.
Thanks

I don't need to tell you that your wingloading on that canopy is too high for your experience. I can see that several other very respected folks have already done that.

What I would like to know is what brought you to acquire that particular canopy in the first place. Was it recommended for you? What does your DZO think of your choice? How about your peers?

I believe you may be a perfect case study for what I believe is a systemic problem in skydiving of people downsizing too quickly. I'm not trying to pick on you. I really would like to hear the details of how that canopy ended up on your back.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jayrech 0]

I only posted this thread out of curiosity. I am currently piloting a Pilot 189. Many thanks go to the people who did let me know how they liked the wing at that particular loading and many thanks for the words of caution and concern. There is no one to "blame" for putting me under a wing that Im not ready for. I realize you aren't picking on me and I do appreciate the curiosity from your end as well.

D.S 174.2

Be careful what you say. Some one might take it the right way.

[chuckakers 370]

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I only posted this thread out of curiosity. I am currently piloting a Pilot 189. Many thanks go to the people who did let me know how they liked the wing at that particular loading and many thanks for the words of caution and concern. There is no one to "blame" for putting me under a wing that Im not ready for. I realize you aren't picking on me and I do appreciate the curiosity from your end as well.

Still not trying to pick on you, but at 255 pounds exit weight with 200 jumps spread over 5 years (40 jumps per year average, or less than 3.5 jumps per month), a Pilot 188 is still pretty darned aggressive.

Aerodyne recommends a maximum weight under that canopy for an intermediate level jumper is 207 pounds and even for an advanced jumper they recommend a max weight of 244.

I'd like your opinion on that.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jayrech 0]

No problem. To start off I have started counting my "years in sport" from my first solo jump. That was done five years ago. There was a lull the next year of jumping, then I worked on a DZ putting in the remainder of the jumps I have within 2 years. Im not condoning the "rapid down size" just because my currency was fast tracked by a busy year of Piloting. As for my exit weight, there is no opinion on that one. Im 6'8" and 240ish pounds. I load the canopy I am currently Piloting at 1.32. I don't know what else to say. My progress has been very carefully scrutinized and has been monitored by various coaches on the DZ. Every time I moved on to a new canopy it was a question that went through all levels of authority on my DZ. I am very confident that non of the coaches on the DZ would put me into a situation that would harm my self/ others. With that being said, I am confident in my own judgement to keep me out of stupid situations. My ego is something I like to keep under control(as best I can).

D.S 174.2

Be careful what you say. Some one might take it the right way.

[chuckakers 370]

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No problem. To start off I have started counting my "years in sport" from my first solo jump. That was done five years ago. There was a lull the next year of jumping, then I worked on a DZ putting in the remainder of the jumps I have within 2 years. Im not condoning the "rapid down size" just because my currency was fast tracked by a busy year of Piloting. As for my exit weight, there is no opinion on that one. Im 6'8" and 240ish pounds. I load the canopy I am currently Piloting at 1.32. I don't know what else to say. My progress has been very carefully scrutinized and has been monitored by various coaches on the DZ. Every time I moved on to a new canopy it was a question that went through all levels of authority on my DZ. I am very confident that non of the coaches on the DZ would put me into a situation that would harm my self/ others. With that being said, I am confident in my own judgement to keep me out of stupid situations. My ego is something I like to keep under control(as best I can).

Thanks for the clarification. Good to hear you have taken your canopy progression seriously.

Stay safe and be the example.

Edit to add - after re-reading your post, I think I took 240 pounds as your exit weight, which is a far cry from the 265 to 270 pounds exit weight you are at if you meant your BODY weight is 240.

At 270 EXIT weight, your loading on a 188 is almost 1.45:1. That's aggressive for anyone, let alone someone with 200 jumps, regardless of currency.

Can you clarify this for me?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[davelepka 4]

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As for my exit weight, there is no opinion on that one. Im 6'8" and 240ish pounds

That puts your exit weight at 265/270, and your WL closer to 1.6 than 1.5. Any way you want to look at it, it's too high, and you're taking more of a chance pushing the WL like that.

There's a pretty big different between 1.3 and 1.6. Right around 1.4/1.5, most non-xbraced canopies really 'wake up' and start to shed any 'conservative' characteristics. For you to want to make the switch from 1.3 to 1.6 with your jump numbers is extra dumb.

Words to live by - If your gonna be dumb, you better be tough. You might be the biggest guy on just about every block you've ever been on, but terra firma is always going to be bigger and tougher. All that size just turns into an awful lot of energy sailing toward the planet, make sure you can't get it slowed down before you hit.

[jayrech 0]

No thank you for actually asking question like a level headed human being and not tearing into a "newbie". Not that any of the replies where rude/or insulting. The genuine concern and curiosity is something I have noticed lacking in alot of the threads posted on this site do it makes a person a bit more reserved when wanting to ask questions or for input from respected coaches and mentors. Thanks again!

D.S 174.2

Be careful what you say. Some one might take it the right way.

[jayrech 0]

I'm sorry you took my description as me trying to "brag" about my size. I don't want to be the "biggest" kid on the block. I was only trying to paint a better picture is all. I'm well aware that the wing loading I would be putting the 170 under is pushing the limits. This thread was created out of curiosity . Thank you for your concern and for expressing it. Just please understand this was a curiosity.

D.S 174.2

Be careful what you say. Some one might take it the right way.

[Pablo.Moreno 0]

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I have loaded Sabre2's up to 2.0 and they flew fine, but felt quite aggressive :)

I don't think it is safe to load a Saber 2 more than 1.6. Well at least that's its PD WL limit on the canopy.
I flew a pilot at 1.9 WL and I stalled it a few times on landing, it was right at the end but the fact I was flying it way past it's envelope had a lot to do with that.
Also, 200 jumps and WL it at 1.5 is too much. At that stage, I was getting into swooping and I was flying a saber2 170 at 1.2 and it help me to build my skill just fine.

[nigel99 143]

Just a comment on the guys at your dz who have been giving you advice. It may be worth bearing in mind that they have happily told you that you are 'safe' exceeding both Brian and the USPA's guidelines on wingloading.

I realise that you Canadians aren't wimps like the mericans though...

Honestly it reflects poorly on your mentors, much more so than you. I really wish people who are looked up to for advice would always take that seriously.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I'm curious what size your reserve is?

[jayrech 0]

211

D.S 174.2

Be careful what you say. Some one might take it the right way.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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No problem. My progress has been very carefully scrutinized and has been monitored by various coaches on the DZ

They've watched you make low turns to down-wind landings on concrete off the dropzone on the sunset load? Thats the sort of situation you're sizing the canopy for - the cute chicks flash the pilot for extra altitude, some one in your group gets hypoxic and gets their foot caught on the seatbelt so you take forever to climb out, have a long spot, don't see power lines until late, and make a low 90 degree turn to avoid them. Being able to land cross-wind, up-hill, down-hill, and with post-planeout turns are all important too.

If they haven't seen that they don't have the frame of reference to make any recommendation.

If they have chances are they're not qualified to make a recommendation. Coach and instructor ratings mean very little. I knew four instructors who killed themselves under canopy and can't count how many broke bones. Notable exceptions with the experience to make recommendations are Brian Germain and Scott Miller who've been around long enough (five digit jump numbers and decades in the sport), travelled to get perspective away from their home DZ, don't accept that x% of jumpers just get broken, and know a lot about teaching.

If they're not hanging out at your drop zone I'd start with Brian's WNE (Wingloading Never Exceed formula, which lets you jump a 1.2 pound/square foot wingloading that gets you to a 210) and only listen to your local advice when it's more conservative.

Safety aside you can have more fun under a larger canopy that you're comfortable with than a smaller newer one.

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With that being said, I am confident in my own judgement to keep me out of stupid situations.

Few if any people only jump solo on their own-pass to guarantee no conflicts with other canopies (perhaps a tandem video guy who wants to swoop before getting their landing). I did meet a Microsoft engineer who only did solos in spite of triple digit jump numbers but even he didn't insist on his own pass.

Few people refuse to jump when the winds are changing direction or may change direction because of weather moving in on the horizon. Your chances of landing cross-wind/down-wind because you're following the pattern are high and if you choose to land into the wind instead you're likely to make a low turn or need to turn to avoid other people.

Few if any people look down, see the spot is long, and climb-back in for a $20+ plane ride down when the pilot won't do go-arounds due to daylight or DZO dictates on fuel consumption.

There are lots of things which you're unlikely to avoid.

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My ego is something I like to keep under control(as best I can).

That's not consistent with choosing advice that looks funner to follow from less experienced instructors over accepted experts with more conservative ideas.