The re-pack cycle ~ *From Z-Hill Fatality thread

[airtwardo 6]

*It could be that she was trying to cutaway from high up but she couldn't pull the cables through the 3-ring loops until down low. My impression - without numbers to back it up - is that hard cutaways have become more common since going to a 6-month repack cycle.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4249603#4249603

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The above comment was taken from the thread discussing the Z-Hill fatality...

It was stated in that thread a hard cut way pull was not the cause, however the comment does IMO merit some discussion.

I for one don't believe there IS a general correlation between the pull force and the re-pack cycle...then again, I tend to view MY parachute systems as life saving devices that I examine carefully and maintain vigilantly.

Prior to each day of jumping I inspect all my handles, cables, loops, rings...Leg & chest strap hardware.

When packing my parachute I also inspect the lines, risers, the canopy the pilot-chute and it's attachment.

When the day is over I place my rig in a plastic bag and then into a heavy gear bag...with nothing else in that bag.

Jumpsuits, helmet, knives, guns, cameras, altimeters, sunflower seeds, battey acid etc. . . go into another different bag.

The rig is stored at home in a clean temperature controlled environment away from sunlight or any other environmental factors that may reduce it's likelihood of operational effectiveness.

If you DON'T want to take these type of precautions...and only wait until the 180 day 'required' inspection of your parachute ~ you just MAY have hard cut-away problems. But I wouldn't consider that a problem with the repack cycle as much as I would a problem regarding operator complacency and lack of awareness.


This SKYDIVING equipment is somewhat complex, and though it's expensive, at least it wears out quick...OTHO bowling balls are cheap, easy to maintain and last damn near forever!


Your thoughts?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[normiss 622]

My thoughts - cutaway difficulty was not an issue in this incident.

[wmw999 2,121]

There are many countries with longer repack cycles. Equally anecdotal information from them indicates no greater difficulty in cutting away than in the US.

Folks, it´s your lifesaving gear -- learn it, take care of it, use it. Don´t just get all pissy when someone snags the lines or leans on it.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DiverMike 5]

I can't imagine anyone who owns their gear being content with only having a rigger take a look at it every 180 days. Hell - I examine my gear so often my wife tells me to stop playing with it or I will go blind.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[Hellis 0]

We have one year repack cycle here.
Have not noticed that my handle is harder to pull now then when we had six months.

However I do pull the cables at least one time per jumpday.
Only the cables not the velcro. Just to feel them move.
Don't know why, but I guess it's one more of those things that make me weird.


And I thought it was common practice to soften the 3 rings from time to time?

[jcbfly 1]

Although the reserve parachute repack cycle here in the USA has changed from 120 to 180 days, the recommended maintenance interval for 3 ring release systems has not changed. According to the inventor, the 3 ring release should be inspected, and the lolon cables on your main parachute release handle should be maintained (cleaned and lubed) every 30 days.

I don't see a correlation between the extension of the reserve repack cycle and hard cutaways. What I do see is an ongoing problem with skydivers being lazy about maintaining their gear.

[normiss 622]

That is not that plain and simple in this incident cause that ain't what happened.

[3mpire 0]

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Although the reserve parachute repack cycle here in the USA has changed from 120 to 180 days, the recommended maintenance interval for 3 ring release systems has not changed. According to the inventor, the 3 ring release should be inspected, and the lolon cables on your main parachute release handle should be maintained (cleaned and lubed) every 30 days.

I don't see a correlation between the extension of the reserve repack cycle and hard cutaways. What I do see is an ongoing problem with skydivers being lazy about maintaining their gear.

this. my understanding is a hard cut-away would be due to poorly maintained 3-ring and cut-away cable. Meaning grime/dirt in the hard housing causing a hard pull or risers "curled" around the third ring maintaining their memory on cut away causing an out of sequence deployment or a hesitation if one was waiting for the RSL.

neither of these maintenance tasks would require a repack.

So I'm curious, what aspect of the repack could affect a deployment other than maintenance that can be done by the jumper?

Is the issue the longer repack cycle, or poor maintenance on the part of the jumper that previously was compensated for by a shorter repack cycle?

[3mpire 0]

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The DZ I used to jump at had a policy that when you dropped off your rig for a repack, you pulled the reserve yourself. Or, you could offer 'the pull' to another jumper that has never had a cutaway. It was great fun- we'd grab the main risers and sling them all over the packing area screaming 'you're gonna die! AAAAAAAAA! Do something!.'

fucking awesome

so short of storing your rig like an idiot and not doing routine maintenance and visual inspections on your own, there are limited risks to the repack cycle. The far greater risk is the jumper not taking the time to regularly maintain their 3 rings or to store their rig appropriately. If I saw my reserve looked lop sided or I could see pilot chute poking out, I at the VERY least would ask my rigger to look at it before jumping.

Being on top of your shit may not prevent every problem, but a hard pull shouldn't be one of them because you can do so much to prevent it.

[riggerrob 558]

The difference between clean cables and dirty cables is about 20 pounds.
IOW clean cutaway usually require less than 5 pounds (2 kg) to pull.
However dirty (read: Perris Valley's sandy soil) often require more than 25 pounds (11 kg) pull before they will release.

[normiss 622]

That works perfect.
IF you're conscious.

[AndyMan 7]

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That is not that plain and simple in this incident cause that ain't what happened.

This discussion would be a lot more reasonable if you'd just tell us what happened.

Since you seem to know.


So, what happened?


_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[normiss 622]

Apparently I'm the only person that read what the S&TA posted.

[AndyMan 7]

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Apparently I'm the only person that read what the S&TA posted.

That would be helpful if I knew who he was.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Rick 67]

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Apparently I'm the only person that read what the S&TA posted.

That would be helpful if I knew who he was.

_Am

here it is:
Information as we have it at this time.
I am not going to release the ladies name,her partner was on site at the time.
After a skydive she was witnessed under her main canopy turning ,this was at a normal deployment altitude.
The turn continued until a cutaway was done.
The altitude of the cutaway was insufficent for the reserve to deploy fully.
We are still looking in to the details of this and rig /experience ect will be posted when we have all the details.

Paul.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[jumpsalot-2 2]

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Although the reserve parachute repack cycle here in the USA has changed from 120 to 180 days, the recommended maintenance interval for 3 ring release systems has not changed. According to the inventor, the 3 ring release should be inspected, and the lolon cables on your main parachute release handle should be maintained (cleaned and lubed) every 30 days.

I don't see a correlation between the extension of the reserve repack cycle and hard cutaways. What I do see is an ongoing problem with skydivers being lazy about maintaining their gear.

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I saw an article years ago in Parachutist on re-pack cycles. The reason for periodic re-packs was the length of time the canopy was " folded into one position for a length of time ". According to the author, the longer it was packed, could affect the time ( in seconds ) that it took to open ( inflate ) if needed. Nothing on cables, but they should be part of shorter maintenance cycles, in my opinion.

Life is short ... jump often.

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[AndyMan 7]

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Information as we have it at this time.
I am not going to release the ladies name,her partner was on site at the time.
After a skydive she was witnessed under her main canopy turning ,this was at a normal deployment altitude.
The turn continued until a cutaway was done.
The altitude of the cutaway was insufficent for the reserve to deploy fully.
We are still looking in to the details of this and rig /experience ect will be posted when we have all the details.

I'd seen that, and that is the reason everyone is asking about a hard cuttaway, or a gear issue. Those questions make sense given the description as quoted above.

Normiss is telling us that if we knew what actually happened, we wouldn't be asking those questions.

Saying "you're wrong, i know what happened, but I'm not going to tell you" isn't particularly helpful.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[normiss 622]

That is not what I have said.

[DiverMike 5]

I thought this thread was split off the incident thread so repack cycles could be discussed. Can we leave discussion of the specific incident in the incident forum? Truth be told, most of the discussion of the specific incident in this thread doesn't even belong there. The detailed information about the incident will likely be released when appropriate. Why do we go through this every incident? I've never met Normiss, but I am willing to bet he isn't withholding any pertinent information for some nefarious reason.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[councilman24 36]

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I can't imagine anyone who owns their gear being content with only having a rigger take a look at it every 180 days. Hell - I examine my gear so often my wife tells me to stop playing with it or I will go blind.

There are lots of jumpers that don't know how to reassemble their 3 rings if they did pull the cables to clean and lube them. And lots of jumpers that don't have a rigger look at their rig for a couple of years. Longest I know someone pencil packed one of my pack jobs was 2 1/2 years. This guy didn't take care of his gear at all. Came down, threw it in the dirt and didn't much care what happened to it. I repacked it just because I wanted to see what it looked like. Looked like I'd packed it the day before.

Oh, a lot of these guys don't look at it themselves either. Hell I know one guy that used to use his rig as a ramp to jump the bonfire with his bicycle.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

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However I do pull the cables at least one time per jumpday.
Only the cables not the velcro. Just to feel them move.
Don't know why, but I guess it's one more of those things that make me weird.


And I thought it was common practice to soften the 3 rings from time to time?

You ought to pull the velcro too. We used to have a lot of jump masters that would run their fingers up and down the velcro of ripcord pockets and cutaway handles every time they put gear on a student. The velcro became super stuck, hook and loop more intertwined by repeated pressure than would be normal. It got a lot harder to pull some of the handles.

And yes you should flex the risers at the three rings once a month.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

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As far as repacks go, I've talked to multiple riggers who admit to repacking their reserves "when they need it." The 90 day repack cycle goes back to the days when bailout chutes were made of silk and got eaten up by moths.

Ah youth,

Pack cycle used to be 60 days, AND STILL IS, for anything made with natural fibers.

From Part 105

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(2) Within 60 days before the date of its use, if it is composed of any amount of silk, pongee, or other natural fiber, or material not specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[DBCOOPER 1]

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There are lots of jumpers that don't know how to reassemble their 3 rings if they did pull the cables to clean and lube them.

The first time I did my wifes Micron with the skyhook I was a little confused with the cable routing for the collins lanyard. Manual didn't have anything about it except in the reserve repack section.The maintenance and care section 6 refers you to section 5 and neither of those sections refer to the proper cable routing. So if you don't know and pull the cut away for maintence you could route the cable outside the lanyard. Mini rant over.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[skydiverek 55]

Good idea to do this once a month:

http://www.velocityrigs.com/manual/infinity10.pdf

[jonstark 8]

Repack cycles have little to do with the periodic preventive maintenance to be performed by the owner/operator of the equipment. It is incumbent upon the operator to assure that the equipment is maintained in airworthy condition. The rigger's certification of airworthiness lasts for as long as it takes the ink on his signature to dry or until the rig goes out the door of his shop.

jon