Just a thought-Audio range finders for under canopy?

[LongWayToFall 0]

In an incidents thread, there was some info posted about canopy collisions. Granted, lots of times you cannot do anything about it, and this wouldn't be an excuse to be lax about looking around under canopy, but what about having:

A device which could detect other devices like it in the air, and when one of those devices gets within a set range, say 300ft, it would beep with increasing frequency as the range decreases. It would help to make sure you know that someone is above and behind you, or maybe that someone is opening up right next to you...
In order for it to work, everyone would need to have one, and they would have to be cheap, but with electronics dropping in price and technology advancing, it wouldn't surprise me that this could become possible in the not too distant future.

Anyways, just a thought. I think often about how advances in technology might be able to help skydivers and bouncing those ideas off of other jumpers is key to getting people to think and just maybe making a difference.

[piisfish 135]

FLARM is now more and more commonly used by paragliders and hanggliders in Switzerland so that the glider pilots can locate/avoid them better
http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[davelepka 4]

Quote

In an incidents thread, there was some info posted about canopy collisions. Granted, lots of times you cannot do anything about it, and this wouldn't be an excuse to be lax about looking around under canopy, but what about having:

A device which could detect other devices like it in the air, and when one of those devices gets within a set range, say 300ft, it would beep with increasing frequency as the range decreases. It would help to make sure you know that someone is above and behind you, or maybe that someone is opening up right next to you...
In order for it to work, everyone would need to have one, and they would have to be cheap, but with electronics dropping in price and technology advancing, it wouldn't surprise me that this could become possible in the not too distant future.

Anyways, just a thought. I think often about how advances in technology might be able to help skydivers and bouncing those ideas off of other jumpers is key to getting people to think and just maybe making a difference.

This is a fine idea. There are a couple of problems, but a fine idea.

In terms of everyone having one, this could easily be solved by making the DZ responsible for such things. Add .25 to the cost of a jump to cover the cost of provising them, and that takes care of that. The DZ would need 2x the number of slots in their largest plane (plus a couple extras), so they could insure there are enough for everyone. Some jumpers might choose to have their own.

The downside is that there would need to be a 'universal' technology. None of this, 'I use a Cypres, you use a Vigil' stuff, everyone would have to use the same brand of device (or all brands would need to use the same tech).

The biggest problem would be programming the device. If you figure that head-on closing speeds can easily top 50 mph even for slow canopies, you need an alarm sensitive enough to give you enough warning that you can react to canopy appraoching you at that speed. It becomes a problem in the landing pattern, where canopies are intentionally close to each other, and collisions are the biggest threat. How do you filter the info of canopies simply closing in on the same landing pattern, and canopies ready to collide?

[dthames 0]

Wow, that is funny because I have spent some time during the past few weeks thinking about the exact same thing. I was reluctant to post the idea because I am sure many would think it silly.

My thought was that at about a 2 second interval it would chirp. If it ever heard a chirp that was not it’s own (based on timing) it would chirp right after it detected another unit's chirp. That way, it would not need a sense of the range, just “I repeat what I hear”, plus keep sending out my chirps. This would double the chirp rate for one detection, triple it if two units could be detected.

In order to prevent any possible syncing up between two units (where they could not hear each other) the time between chirps would need to float around inside a window of time, somewhat randomly in order to prevent units from accidently getting in pace with each other.

I like to tinker with embedded processer controls, but I have not done much of that lately. The audio part of the design is outside my talent range. But I bet we have some young engineers in the community that could take on the task.

Dan

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[davelepka 4]

Quote

My thought was that at about a 2 second interval it would chirp

If you figure on an average canopy speed of 25 mph, so a closing speed of 50 mph in a head-on, you're looking at about 70 feet-per-second, or 140 ft in between chirps. So if you set the chirps to 'echo' each other at, say, within 200ft, you could have one chrip un-echoed at 205ft, and the nect chirp (with echo) would be at 65ft, or less than one second from impact, not enough time to react.

Then you're back to the problem of filtering that info in the pattern so you can tell the difference between canopies normally closing in on the pattern, and canopies approaching you for a collision.

The idea remains good, but the problems also remain.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Wow, that is funny because I have spent some time during the past few weeks thinking about the exact same thing. I was reluctant to post the idea because I am sure many would think it silly.

Dan, May I say...

Please get over that line of thinking. Please ask the question.
Only the bozos would think you are being silly by asking any question. Only those who don't recognize that you are a young jumper would berate you for asking.

I can see where posting questions here sometimes generates derision and such and how that would make young jumpers reluctant to post. Hell, sometimes it seems that some people have one goal in life...make others look/feel bad.

I would suggest asking anyway and not letting any berating bother you. There will always be understanding and thoughtful responders to your questions and you can take the belittling with a large dose of salt.


You may take note that most of that berating, belittling, derision gets put out at people who try to make themselves out as knowing more than they actually do....like trying to present something as fact when, in reality, it's way off base.

We call it the 100-jump wonder syndrome.
It's common for jumpers around that number think they know more than they do and put out erroneous information to tell others.

Asking is one thing, telling is quite another.
As a young jumper, asking is good...no it's great!
Telling can get you verbally smacked.

Andy

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Just thinking out loud:

The alert settings could be programmable for different altitudes just like freefall alerts vs canopy alerts.

At higher altitudes the alert is set to alarm when someone is within X number of feet.

At pattern altitudes, the alert is set to alarm when someone is within Y number of feet.

Yes, even so, closing speeds in the pattern could be faster than the reaction time provided by the alert.
Hmmmmm....


Never mind.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,381]

>and when one of those devices gets within a set range, say 300ft, it
>would beep with increasing frequency as the range decreases. It would
>help to make sure you know that someone is above and behind you . . .

OK. It goes off, and from the speed of the tone changing someone is about to collide with you in about 2 seconds. You look around and cannot see anyone. What do you do?

[nickfrey 0]

But my range finder didn't chirp... I'm suing...

[Hellis 0]

Quote

>and when one of those devices gets within a set range, say 300ft, it
>would beep with increasing frequency as the range decreases. It would
>help to make sure you know that someone is above and behind you . . .

OK. It goes off, and from the speed of the tone changing someone is about to collide with you in about 2 seconds. You look around and cannot see anyone. What do you do?

Chop it!


It seems most of you are focusing on a head on collision.
Sure 300 feet is very close when you are flying straight on to someone.
You should have seen someone straight infront of you, unless it is at deployment as there was some video of a week ago.

But in all other situations 300 feet seems reasonable to me.

[LongWayToFall 0]

dthames: I have made a complete fool out of myself enough times on this forum that it doesn't bother me much anymore.. hahaha
Also, some of the best thought-provoking threads I have read on this forum have been when people bring up random ideas.... Most people have a good grasp of topics that are frequently discussed or things they deal with often, but it is those outside of the box ideas which can save lives...

I wanted to add another idea I had pertaining to this device:

What about having a small speaker in each ear, and if the system could detect not only the range, but the direction of other devices, it could beep in a stereo mode, so you could know which side to pay attention to...

Also, the beeping could have 2 different changes, one being volume, the other being frequency, or maybe tone. That way, you could tell that not only someone is close to you, but how fast they are coming towards you.

This would help when you get down to the landing area, hopefully even though people are going to be close, they shouldn't be closing in at breakneck speeds unless you have already landed and a swooper is landing next to you or something.

I figured that maybe the best place try out this sort of device would be at big way events. People participating are already dropping a fair bit of money to be there, and if it was only a few more bucks hopefully it wouldn't be a big deal. Also, giant multi-plane loads have the most packed holding and landing areas of any skydiving situation, which would make using this device the most helpful.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Billvon:

Having lots of time riding motorcycles, specifically splitting lanes, has instilled in me the importance of predictability, namely on the part of the drivers ahead of me. As long as they don't do anything crazy, unpredictable, etc then I can handle just about anything that comes my way.

How this applies to your question, is this:

I would do nothing (In terms of canopy input). I would not stab a toggle, or make any sort of radical avoidance maneuver... I would sure be breaking my neck trying to locate the other jumper though, that is for sure. Hopefully it is just someone who is trying to pull along side of me to wave or something...

[Trae 1]

in reply to "What about having a small speaker in each ear, and if the system could detect not only the range, but the direction of other devices, it could beep in a stereo mode, so you could know which side to pay attention to... "
...........................

Proximity alarm. mmm might have something there.

perhaps in the future, when we are all permanently hooked up via gps, this could provide warning of a potential collision, in freefal and under canopy.
Stereo sound providing speed of approach and direction.
The music in your ears could be sweet when everything is good, but get scary when danger loomed sort of like sound in the movies
The approach of the ground could be the earth rumbling in your ears.
The algorithms would be fun for some maths genius to devise.

[BrokenR1 0]

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OK. It goes off, and from the speed of the tone changing someone is about to collide with you in about 2 seconds. You look around and cannot see anyone. What do you do?

My guess is they are above and behind me somewhere so I yell and depending on altitude grab both front risers.

Did I pass?

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[BrokenR1 0]

Quote

Proximity alarm. mmm might have something there.

perhaps in the future, when we are all permanently hooked up via gps, this could provide warning of a potential collision, in freefal and under canopy.
Stereo sound providing speed of approach and direction.
The music in your ears could be sweet when everything is good, but get scary when danger loomed sort of like sound in the movies
The approach of the ground could be the earth rumbling in your ears.
The algorithms would be fun for some maths genius to devise.

I was thinking of something like the flysight with an altimeter and proximity sensor. It ties the information from both devices together to give both a pure proximity alert if it cannot compute the rest of the information fast enough as well as a sense of direction from each other and closing speed using the extra information. I can see this getting very expensive very quickly. Maybe tie it into a helmet with a heads up display. They have those gunshot detectors that can sense where a shot came from and display direction, maybe something like that.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Maybe tie it into a helmet with a heads up display. They have those gunshot detectors that can sense where a shot came from and display direction, maybe something like that. "
.....................................



Bats do that ultrasound thing giving them a 3D representation within a certain range.
We've got something similar but its dormant, generally undeveloped. I've navigated in totally dark caves purely by this hidden sense of ours. Its freaky, but after a while you can tell where the walls are and stop before bumping into them, all in absolute pitch darkness. You can practice this in a darkened room with eye coverings , but it has to be totally black. It works better if you are moving VERY slowly , crawling around like a bug, chirping a bit quietly then its easier to pick up on this extra sense of ours.

While we're brainstorming , perhaps some ultrasonic emitter/reciever hooked up to a visual and auditory decoder could provide a person with a constant extra sensory 3D picture of the hazards around us.

Snakes too , must put out some ultrasound or something similar , cause when they're around I always get scared BEFORE I see them.

[BrokenR1 0]

True, there's been several blind people that have developed their sense of ultrasonic ranging (echolocation) by making a clicking type noise.

We could tie strings to each other so that you only had to look at which direction they are heading off to.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[Hombreys 0]

Nah, must be electromagnetic waves that can pass through your bod.

So a button that sends out like ten pings per second, other buttons receive this signal and depending on the signal strength it can determine how far away the other button is. Also, by comparing historic data it can determine if the other button is coming closer and at what speed and acceleration.

Add a directional antenna to this button that sends stronger signal infront of you, meaning it draws out your "event cone" with a stronger signal.

There are drawbacks of course, but I wont mention them until I've sold the product lol.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

In an incidents thread, there was some info posted about canopy collisions. Granted, lots of times you cannot do anything about it, and this wouldn't be an excuse to be lax about looking around under canopy, but what about having:

A device which could detect other devices like it in the air, and when one of those devices gets within a set range, say 300ft, it would beep with increasing frequency as the range decreases. It would help to make sure you know that someone is above and behind you, or maybe that someone is opening up right next to you...
In order for it to work, everyone would need to have one, and they would have to be cheap, but with electronics dropping in price and technology advancing, it wouldn't surprise me that this could become possible in the not too distant future.

Anyways, just a thought. I think often about how advances in technology might be able to help skydivers and bouncing those ideas off of other jumpers is key to getting people to think and just maybe making a difference.

By no means am I discounting the idea, in fact there are a few things out there that are in development to achieve this. However, lets look at the issue realistically in a civilian skydiving setting. I see something like this actually possibly causing some confusion and accidents on DZ's where there are lots of people in the sky all converging on the same landing area and or landing simultaneously, as often occurs during events/boogies. I think there would be an informational overload for people when bells and alarms started going off on top of the other factors to deal with when landing. The alternative would be to turn the distance/collision sensitivity down but then this just means you now have time to say "Oh shit" before the guy above and behind you plows into you. The other thing to contend with is that if these alarms go off all the time during the time one enters the pattern through landings with no negative result, people over time will eventually tune them out. Again, I think it is a reasonable idea but I think/know there are some technological as well as situational application limitations that have to be overcome first.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[LongWayToFall 0]

Definitely, you have some good points. This was why I was thinking that maybe it could beep for range and closing speed, and you could also make some changes based on altitude.
For sure this is just a tentative idea, and not too practical, but I thought it was worth bringing up just as a point of discussion, and I could let people smarter than me hash out the technical details of it all.... hahaha

[kalaniwavo 0]

It could be modeled similar to a TCAS system. It could be possible to disable advisories/alerts below a certain altitude. maybe pattern altitude or something like 700ft and below or reduce the sensitivity level.

Also, what would be really interesting is if you could program your own. Basically, every unit would always transmit like a transponder but you could individually program your unit to whatever parameters you want

If you were hot shit and didn't want any audible warnings you could disable those but still fly with it so that it still transmits your position to others. The possibilities are endless and obviously some big hurdles and decisions have to be overcome before it every sees a DZ but I believe is totally possible.

And to that, whoever could mass produce a reliable system and market them to dz's could get a lock on the market and make a ton of money.

[TampaPete 35]

Don't think it would help here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVGblyZvVg&feature=related

[stayhigh 2]

Good luck on big ways.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Skydivesg 6]

Give me one ping, Mr. Vasilly, one ping only.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[dthames 0]

I have noticed that the person that conceives an idea and the person that implements it are often not one in the same. Sometimes it is by design and sometimes by chance that the two get together. Talking about such ideas on this forum might give someone (the guy that can build it) a great idea…..someday.

If you look back 15 or 20 years at what a cell phone was, it was the size of a brick and did only one thing. Today, a “phone” has many features and capabilities, including some with walkie talkie mode(they can talk directly to each other). My camcorder even has a GPS built in to tag the photos/videos with the location they were shot. For those that don’t know it, there is something called differential GPS that can determine position to less than one foot error.

Today we see skydivers with sophisticated altimeters, GPS devices, and other gadgets. In 5 years, what will the latest skydiving electronic gadgets look like? Who will shape what they do and how they work? Look at the FlySight GPS. There was a need, the need was understood, and a product emerged. As computer radio networks get more capable and computers faster, it would not be farfetched to imagine a radio web of devices all talking to each other, reporting position and vector information, and for device "A" to have an understanding of the fact that device "A" was closing with device "B".

But before any such device would exist, someone would need to understand the need, express the requirements, and then someone with the knowledge to put the pieces inside the black box, would need to work to make it happen.

I would agree that today, something as described here (audible beeper) might not be a practical solution. But each time a jumper turns toward someone else and then proceeds to fly into them, you can’t help but think, “Is there technology that might have prevented it?” If not, the next question should be, is it possible to build such technology?

Take a look at page 66 of Jan 2012 Parachutist.

Dan

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”