Raising Minimum Deployment Altitudes

[popsjumper 2]

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>I don't know that I trust 200 jumps to be able to efficiently handle low-altitude
>problems unless they have experience handling EPs already.

I know a few people with 1000 jumps that I'm not sure could handle a low cutaway.

The "experience handling EPs already" comment is an interesting one. I've often thought there was a lot of value in doing an intentional cutaway as part of one's advanced training (say for a D license.) Some tandem manufacturers already require it, and it certainly prepares you for both the feeling of a cutaway, the timing required, how your harness shifts after you go back into freefall, the speed of reserve deployment at low speeds etc.

100% good stuff. I always recommend the intentional cutaway to jumpers who have not yet experienced one...but only when the tertiary system is available. I strongly believe it is a good training tool and I wouldn't argue a second against making it a requirement somewhere in the licensing progression. I'm leaning towards earlier than D but it's a subject for discussion fo' sho'.


I just had to say, "only when the tertiary system is available" because I know of a nut that talked his GF into an intentional cutaway....on her sport rig.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Fair enough Pops. My numbers are close and you are not giving me ideas about busting anything. I have 3 cutaways in 200ish jumps, 2 low speed and one very low high speed.

So you do have some experience with mals.
On the one hand that's good...OTOH, WHAT?????
Body position!
J/K, eh?

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I simply dont think the number of jumps has that much to do with how a person will perform when dealing with a cutaway at any altitude

Which is why I said I couldn't really trust even 200 jumps to perform and we agree with that totally (no pun intended).

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Hell, one of my friends has over 2K jumps with no cutaways and he told me he didnt know how he would perform if/when he had his first malfunction.

And he's right in the big scheme of things. None of us really do. We can train and we can be confident but, as you indicate, the proof is in the pudding.

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Outside of that small point, we are in total agreement

Meh, I think we agree across the board, right?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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...there were several older guys that always had mals just as their reserve repacks were due. Oddly, they always seemed to happen on their last jump of the day on Sunday afternoon.

Well, hell...if you're going to have to pay for a repack you may as well get your moneys worth, right?


Youngsters: JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,396]

>...but only when the tertiary system is available.

Agreed. I think there are a lot of ways to do such a cutaway:

1) Just cutting away from your main. Not recommended unless you have to.

2) Door deployed tertiary canopy, cut away to your regular main. Can be safe if you have two people who know what they're doing, but not very representative of a "real" cutaway.

3) Chest mounted square tertiary, deploy tertiary, cut away to your regular main. A slightly better/safer way to do it but still not a great simulation.

4) Chest mounted round tertiary, deploy your main, cut it away, deploy your reserve. Much more representative of a real cutaway but there are some rigging and legality issues.

5) Dedicated cutaway rig. This is the ideal way to do it, since the handles are in approximately the same position and it is designed and TSOed to do just that. It should be pointed out that the complexity does add some risk - so it's not just another skydive - but I think the benefits of having that experience outweights the risks.

[crotalus01 0]

Good points Pops, yes we do agree. As for my cutaways, one was linetwists I couldnt get out of, one was spinning on my back from 9 broken lines and a couple of torn cells and one was a broken brake line that I chopped because it opened hard enough that it rang my bell pretty good and I didnt want to chance landing on my rears with my head fuzzy.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[popsjumper 2]

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>...but only when the tertiary system is available.

Agreed. I think there are a lot of ways to do such a cutaway:
.
.
5) Dedicated cutaway rig. This is the ideal way to do it, since the handles are in approximately the same position and it is designed and TSOed to do just that. It should be pointed out that the complexity does add some risk - so it's not just another skydive - but I think the benefits of having that experience outweights the risks.

Thanks for pointing those options out, Bill.
It appears to me that line items 1-4 are little more than jury-rigged setups and I cringe at the thought of using them.
Item 5 is the only way to go, in my book, too.

For you guys out there who will want to do an intentional cutaway:

It's a great learning tool.

Caution: Be careful on what setup you use.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

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As for my cutaways, one was linetwists I couldnt get out of, one was spinning on my back from 9 broken lines and a couple of torn cells and one was a broken brake line that I chopped because it opened hard enough that it rang my bell pretty good

Sounds like you've carefully considered your gear when choosing to pull at 2k. Three cutaways with under 200 jump, and 2 of them due to gear failures. Something isn't right there.

[chuckakers 370]

As for my cutaways, one was linetwists I couldnt get out of, one was spinning on my back from 9 broken lines and a couple of torn cells and one was a broken brake line that I chopped because it opened hard enough that it rang my bell pretty good and I didnt want to chance landing on my rears with my head fuzzy.

[popsjumper 2]

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As for chopping a canopy because it hammered you and broke a brake line, I don't get that one at all. A typical response to that scenario would be to visually inspect the canopy for damage and perform a simple control check using risers.

Careful there, Chuck.
We don't know whether or not he has learned enough about rear riser flight to be able to land rears safely.

For you and me, yes. But NOT for everybody.

IMO, for jumpers not understanding riser flight, cut and deploy IS best practices.

OK...in the big scheme of things...
Have first attempts been successful? Yes.
Have first attempts been unsuccessful? Yes.
I'm in the camp of "you must know about rear riser flight (including, and most particularly, stall point) before attempting rear-riser landings".

And yes, I agree that riser flight should be well-in-hand by 200 jumps....but again, we don't know about this particular jumper.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[chuckakers 370]

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As for chopping a canopy because it hammered you and broke a brake line, I don't get that one at all. A typical response to that scenario would be to visually inspect the canopy for damage and perform a simple control check using risers.

Careful there, Chuck.
We don't know whether or not he has learned enough about rear riser flight to be able to land rears safely.

For you and me, yes. But NOT for everybody.

IMO, for jumpers not understanding riser flight, cut and deploy IS best practices.

OK...in the big scheme of things...
Have first attempts been successful? Yes.
Have first attempts been unsuccessful? Yes.
I'm in the camp of "you must know about rear riser flight (including, and most particularly, stall point) before attempting rear-riser landings".

And yes, I agree that riser flight should be well-in-hand by 200 jumps....but again, we don't know about this particular jumper.

I suppose that depends on where he learned. I was taught how to rear riser flare in a broken brake line scenario (combined with a PLF, of course) during my student progression 26 years ago. Maybe things have changed.

If so, that's yet another thing I disagree with in our "modern" training. We want people to have all kinds of "other than normal" flying skills before downsizing or moving to higher performing canopies, yet we don't train for a simple rear-riser flare when needed?

Seems we would put more focus on the simple and sometimes necessary before the fancy and unnecessary, but what do I know?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[davelepka 4]

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We want people to have all kinds of "other than normal" flying skills before downsizing or moving to higher performing canopies, yet we don't train for a simple rear-riser flare when needed?

Seems we would put more focus on the simple and sometimes necessary before the fancy and unnecessary, but what do I know?

Whatever, dude. You should see the freefall skills you're trained in before getting an A license. Those guys can float/sink, they can do center point turns, and even swoop down to a formation. They are awesome, and let's face it, if the rigger hooks everything up right and the packer does their job, who would ever need to rear riser flare anyway?

[popsjumper 2]

Am I off base here thinking new students, having no riser flight experience, would be good to go trying to flare rear risers on landing...without stalling the thing?

I'm open.

Yes, I agree that it is a skill that everyone needs to know. I just question a student's ability to do that without stalling, without actual practice up high.

I know this is going to generate some discussion on just how much CAN a first-jump student absorb before the jump. Well, we can't possibly teach them everything, right? As far as survivability, I'd put rear-riser flight down low on the list of things to teach at FJC.

Question:
How does the reliability of a reserve deployment compare today vs yesteryear?
(Assuming squares and comparable rigs.)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

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I'd put rear-riser flight down low on the list of things to teach at FJC.

I'd wouldn't put it on the list for a 10th jump ground school. There's too much 'detail', too many 'what ifs' involved in letting a broken steering line stand, and just rear risering it.

However, I would certainly put it into the trainng for a 20th or a 24th jump. Note that both of those numbers are within the requitrements for an A licesne, with the idea being that it should be taught before a jumper is licensed, but it would certainly be later in the training.

The idea is that as a student gets closer to an A license, the training should be become more and more serious. They are showing that they are dedicated and moving toward being a 'real' skydiver, and as that day comes closer, they should be trained to be a 'real' skydiver.

Getting the A is a significant shift in that it represents a jumper moving into true 'self supervision', into an area where they can jump, and travel to other DZs to jump, without the involvement of anyone else. Yes, making 10 jumps is a big step for a student, but getting to jump 10 is still less than halfway to a license, and that student still has a good deal of 'supervision' in their future.

There shouldn't be a licensed jumper out there who doesn't know 'in theory' how to do a rear riser landing. They should be familair with both toggle and riser stalls, and have practiced both at altitude on more than one jump.

[chuckakers 370]

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Am I off base here thinking new students, having no riser flight experience, would be good to go trying to flare rear risers on landing...without stalling the thing?

I'm open.

Yes, I agree that it is a skill that everyone needs to know. I just question a student's ability to do that without stalling, without actual practice up high.

I know this is going to generate some discussion on just how much CAN a first-jump student absorb before the jump. Well, we can't possibly teach them everything, right? As far as survivability, I'd put rear-riser flight down low on the list of things to teach at FJC.

Question:
How does the reliability of a reserve deployment compare today vs yesteryear?
(Assuming squares and comparable rigs.)

Pops - a couple things here. I did not say anything about teaching rear riser flares on the first jump, nor did I say anything about landing them. Let me clarify to be sure I'm understood.

I - presumably like most people - was taught during the first dozen or so jumps that a cutaway was recommended if I had a broken brake line. It was in my progression that I was taught that a cutaway might not be necessary for a broken brake line if the canopy was controllable with rear risers. I also was never taught to land with rear risers for practice, but rather to practice flaring with risers at altitude to learn where the stall point was so that in the case of needing a rear riser flare a stall would not be reached. I was taught to practice this whenever possible to become comfortable with the technique, and was also trained to "re-practice" the technique with any change in canopies to learn where the new stall point was.

Rear riser flares were NOT taught in the FJC. Not sure what I said that gave you that impression. But I was properly trained on how to recognize and avoid a rear riser stall, and by the time I had a license the accepted procedure for a broken brake line was to land on rear risers if the canopy was controllable and if a partial flare was possible without a stall.

One caveat here. A cutaway was always considered an acceptable option if the jumper did not feel comfortable using rear risers for landing. That remains true today at any experience level and is always what I taught when teaching any level of skydiver.

EDITED TO ADD: at the risk of being too simplistic in the above description, I was also taught to perform a PLF if landing with rear risers as I was for any landing that was or was suspected to be other than ideal.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 370]

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We want people to have all kinds of "other than normal" flying skills before downsizing or moving to higher performing canopies, yet we don't train for a simple rear-riser flare when needed?

Seems we would put more focus on the simple and sometimes necessary before the fancy and unnecessary, but what do I know?

Whatever, dude. You should see the freefall skills you're trained in before getting an A license. Those guys can float/sink, they can do center point turns, and even swoop down to a formation. They are awesome, and let's face it, if the rigger hooks everything up right and the packer does their job, who would ever need to rear riser flare anyway?

I sense a bit of sarcasm there but to answer you question, anyone who snaps a brake line. Of course that's if they know how to.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[crotalus01 0]

All my mals were on a Sabre 1 190 that has since been retired. The one with 9 broken lines was witnessed by a friend with a couple thousand jumps and he told me the canopy was coming out of the bag well before I reached linestretch - what caused this I really dont know (and yes I did ask).
The broken brake line, well...I already had a couple of small tears at the reinforcing tape on the topskin (rigger was going to repair it later that week), it opened hard as hell, I was seeing stars and also wondering if it had maybe damaged the topskin even more. Checked my altitude, a little below 1800' and decided to not take any chances. Yeah I could have landed it on rears, but I had to make a decision quickly and I elected to go to my reserve.
At any rate, no more issues since I got rid of that slamming POS....

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[popsjumper 2]

Thanks, Chuck.
I read, "during my student progression" as being your FJC.
My mistake.

Otherwise, we're on the same page.

Thanks again.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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However, I would certainly put it into the trainng for a 20th or a 24th jump.

Personally, I get 'em started say, @ 10-15 or so with just doing turns (no flares yet). I tell 'em it's for avoidance maneuvers at opening.

At 15 or so, I explain flares and the stall and I have them find the rear-riser stall point...a few inches at a time on the flaring until the stall becomes apparent.

The next jump I have them do both...some turns and some flares (not to exceed the stall point).
That when I tell them it's for the possibility of landing rears and explain the potential gotchyas at landing.

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There shouldn't be a licensed jumper out there who doesn't know 'in theory' how to do a rear riser landing. They should be familair with both toggle and riser stalls, and have practiced both at altitude on more than one jump.

100% agree.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

An excellent testimonial for the need for proper gear maintenance.


As a youngster I was told, "Crap always happens at the most inopportune times."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[chuckakers 370]

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Thanks, Chuck.
I read, "during my student progression" as being your FJC.
My mistake.

Otherwise, we're on the same page.

Thanks again.

I may not have made myself very clear in my original post.

That does raise a question since it's been a while since I've been involved in student instruction. Are rear riser flare landings as an option after broken line no longer taught for noobs during or after student progression?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[crotalus01 0]

Rear riser flares are definitely taught at my home DZ. As I tried to explain in the previous post, there were a couple of other factors in play. I stand by my decision to chop it.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[chuckakers 370]

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Rear riser flares are definitely taught at my home DZ. As I tried to explain in the previous post, there were a couple of other factors in play. I stand by my decision to chop it.

As I said earlier, I'm not passing judgment as you were the one in the saddle. Only you can make that call.

Any additional conversation I have on the subject if of a more general nature.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[popsjumper 2]

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That does raise a question since it's been a while since I've been involved in student instruction. Are rear riser flare landings as an option after broken line no longer taught for noobs during or after student progression?

Yes, technically.

In Cat A (FJC) the SIM says:

d. In the event of a toggle malfunction, the rear
risers may be used for steering and flaring
the canopy.
(1) Landing by flaring with rear risers should be
practiced at sufficient altitude before
attempting an actual landing with rear risers.
(2) Flaring with rear risers will require more
strength than flaring with just the toggles.

In Cat B it says:

e. Evaluate controllability and flare before reaching
the decide-and-act altitude of 2,500 feet for:
(1) Broken steering line: Use back risers.

That seems to say to teach them rear-riser landings at FJC. Personally I don't agree with that and from the many FJCs I've sat in on at other DZs it appears that few others teach it during FJC.

At my FJC, I tell them that the canopy can be steered and landed on rear risers but there is some important info they need to know before they attempt it. Cut and Deploy is the proper response for broken brake lines.

The SIM says teach rear riser turns( both pre- and post- brake release) at Cat D.

Since that quite often doesn't happen, I pick them up after the AFF jumps when they get released for self-supervision to start them off on rear riser turns and flaring.

I would hope that AFF instructors are including all the canopy work in their student jump level/Cat training but, from what I've seen around the SE, it doesn't happen that way as much as one would like.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Rear riser flares are definitely taught at my home DZ. As I tried to explain in the previous post, there were a couple of other factors in play. I stand by my decision to chop it.

And I am glad you did!

When are rear riser flares taught...at what stage of your training?
Does your DZ also teach rear-riser landing techniques and, if so, at what stage of your progression?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[crotalus01 0]

Actually my home DZ is pretty big on canopy piloting. Rear riser landings were discussed in very general terms during our groundschool when we were going over all the control inputs for the canopy. Nothing in depth at all, just a mention that we could use the rear risers to flare for landing. We were also taught to use rears for turns immediately following inflation if we were too close to another jumper.
I believe the first time it was covered with any detail was around jump 5 or 6 during AFF, with an emphasis to learn the stall point for both toggle and rears. Harness steering was also discussed at this time with the caveat that our canopies were too large for us to notice any appreciable turn rate.
Edit to add I dont recall anything very specific about landing technique except for PLF and that it would feel faster but not to overdo the flare because the stall happens very abruptly with little or no warning...pretty much flare until you plane out, hold it as long as you can or until your groundspeed bleeds off a bit, and do a PLF.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...