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Butters

Raising Minimum Deployment Altitudes

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I stopped reading after this because it's wrong. The reason I deploy at 2K (instead of 1.5K, 1K, etc...) is because it's "the rule". The reason I feel that deploying at 2K is OK is based on the my gear and level of acceptable risk ...



You sure about that? You mean to tell me that with no outside influence, no reference point from which to work from, you think you would have come up with 2k all on your own?

I'm not suggesting it was an active decision on your part, but I am 100% sure that your thinking was influenced by the fact that from the first day you started jumping, all of the 'expert' jumpers you met and were trained by, were permitted via the BSR to pull at 2k. To suggest otherwise is just being naive.



Yes, I mean to tell you that my decision was based on the minimum altitude I'm allowed to deploy by "the rule", my gear choices, and my level of acceptable risk. Had "the rule" been different then it would have affected my decision only because it's "the rule" regarding how low I can deploy. Very few 'experts' that have been around me since the day I started jumping deploy at 2K ... in fact, most discourage it.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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I know people that still pull at 1500. So your observation is incorrect already



There are people who do all sorts of stupid things. There will always be exceptions to every rule, and just because you happen to a few jumpers that like to hum it down, the vast majority of jumpers respect the 2k min pull altitude simply because that's whats in place, and what was in place when they started jumping.

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And since they are ignoring the 200 jump for a camera reg... What makes you think they would suddenly pay attention to this one?
And if he is going to ignore that... What makes you think he will suddenly obey this?



Maybe I should have included the concept in my reply to you, but it came a few posts later, and the concept is that nobody is going to accept anything 'suddenly'.

I wasn't there, but I'm quite sure that the 2k min pull altitude wasn't accpeted with open arms and followed to a 't' from day one. Eventaully, it did work it's way into the lexicon, and has since become a part of skydiving to the point that people on this thread will defend it vigorously.

Again, that enthusiasm merely supprts my point. What was once the scourge of of experienced jumpers from coast to coast, a 2k min pull altitude, is now being bandied about as the gold standard, and the idea of changing is sacriledge.

The point is that as the landscape of the sport changes, so do the rules that govern it, and this shouldn't be immune.

Just above, Butters asserted that he chose 2k on his own as the result of an analysis of the gear and type of jumps he makes, with no outside influence. I suggested that it was absurd, and that the fact that from his first day on the DZ he heard from the experienced jumpers that they pull at 2k had a lot to do with his feeling that it's an appropriate pull altitude.

If, without outside influence, you were given the choice of pull altitudes, would you really come up with the one that's 10 seconds from impact, and 7 seconds from being too late to have an open canopy before impact? How close would you get to a brick wall if you were driving straing at it, fast enough to kill you, and there was a chance the brakes would fail and would need to enact a multi step process to use the back-up brakes? It's the same idea, and I have to think that without a professional driver suggesting to you what a 'safe' distance would be, you might err on the side of caution, and start braking well before the professional driver.

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If, without outside influence, you were given the choice of pull altitudes, would you really come up with the one that's 10 seconds from impact, and 7 seconds from being too late to have an open canopy before impact?

The people who had no outside influences came up with considerably lower altitudes -- they were the ones without the BSR.

The change in gear makes a big difference, and should be taken into account by each jumper in deploying.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Just above, Butters asserted that he chose 2k on his own as the result of an analysis of the gear and type of jumps he makes, with no outside influence. I suggested that it was absurd, and that the fact that from his first day on the DZ he heard from the experienced jumpers that they pull at 2k had a lot to do with his feeling that it's an appropriate pull altitude.



And you were wrong. I am not defending 2K as the gold standard. I am defending my right to choose ... Once again, what if they institute a rule against turns greater than 360's? You'll fight it. What if it passes and later they try to change it to 180's? You'll fight it again. Not because 360's is the gold standard but because you were against the old rule and the new rule will be more prohibitive than the old rule ...
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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The change in gear makes a big difference, and should be taken into account by each jumper in deploying.



Therein lies the problem. How many young jumpers are aware that gear has chnaged, or what it was like when the 2k line was drawn in the sand?

These are the same jumpers who push WL higher and higher with less and less jumps. They feel great about jumping a 1.4 Wl with 200 jumps, but not realizing that when the rule was made, most people were under 1.0 Wl, and even then the canopies were far lower performance.

We can't make rules based on what we know, you have to make them based more on what the 'average' jumper will know. What I said upthread has remained true, most of the people commenting on this are 10+ years into the sport, and 1000's of jumps in the books.

The thing to consider is the up and coming jumpers, and the up and coming jumpers 5 years from now. What will they 'know', and what will the landscape of skydiving be like then? How about 10 years from now?

Anyone know when the 2k mark was set? I know it's been at least 17 years because it was in place when I started, so consider it's longevity, and think the same number of years ahead of right now.

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The up and coming jumpers still know that they want long openings, that they don't want to scare their Cypres, and that a hop and pop is at 5000'. They have 3 biases to overcome to start dumping low. and here I'm talking about "don't run into the brick wall in front of you" thinking, not the subtler thinking of how rigs open slower than they used to.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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There will always be exceptions to every rule, and just because you happen to a few jumpers that like to hum it down, the vast majority of jumpers respect the 2k min pull altitude simply because that's whats in place, and what was in place when they started jumping.



Again, if you poll 100 jumpers on the DZ the majority will be pulling higher than 2.5 anyway. This is a regulation looking for a problem, not a problem that needs a regulation.

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Maybe I should have included the concept in my reply to you, but it came a few posts later, and the concept is that nobody is going to accept anything 'suddenly'.



I have heard this concept from you before..... Fact is that it really does not matter. The FACT is that the BSR is a MINIMUM deployment altitude.

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If, without outside influence, you were given the choice of pull altitudes, would you really come up with the one that's 10 seconds from impact, and 7 seconds from being too late to have an open canopy before impact? How close would you get to a brick wall if you were driving straing at it, fast enough to kill you, and there was a chance the brakes would fail and would need to enact a multi step process to use the back-up brakes? It's the same idea, and I have to think that without a professional driver suggesting to you what a 'safe' distance would be, you might err on the side of caution, and start braking well before the professional driver.



Any the counter point which you seem to be ignoring is that nothing currently is stopping ANYONE from pulling HIGHER. NOTHING AT ALL.

This whole thing is based off of Bill Booth and maybe others wanting to raise the deployment altitudes of AAD's.... But again, there is NOTHING preventing any maker of AAD's from doing that.

Min pull altitude is 2k.
You want to swoop and need to get set up? Pull higher.
You have a canopy that takes a long time to open? Pull higher.
You want more time to deal with a mal? Pull higher.

Nothing is stopping you from taking the MIN pull altitude and making adjustments based on your equipment and person desires from ADDING to it.

Again, this is a regulation looking for a problem. Time would be MUCH better spent working on the canopy control issue. I'd personally rather see a BSR about no turns over 90 unless on a hop n pop... It would save more lives.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Therein lies the problem. How many young jumpers are aware that gear has chnaged, or what it was like when the 2k line was drawn in the sand?



How many of these young jumpers are pulling at 2k? Very few if any that I have seen... Hell, they will not get out of a plane lower than 4k.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I wonder who requested it and why?



Bill,

Just in case you are not speaking with you tong in cheek, I offer the following info.

At the last PIA meeting Robert Feldman, Attorney for UPT et ux, raised this item and had it put on the agenda to go to USPA as a request.

It is biased upon the USPA directive about low reserve openings, or failure to deploy within 750 feet after AAD confirmed firing.

I did a poll on this form predicting this action. Under Gear & Rigging: "Should the AAD activation altitude be raised to 1250 feet?"

Booth is behind it because his reserves and others, won't always open within the required distance of 300 feet. He has publicly stated on Youtube at the PIA convention http://www.youtube.com/...5#p/u/30/tQuJr5wuvSw that this is his desire, to raise all altitudes.

John

PS; I would support this increase if there was a smattering of proof that it would help. But if a PC won't pull a bag out in 750 feet then I don't see any reason it would do any better from a higher altitude.
We don't need more altitude just gear which works.

JS

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I wonder who requested it and why?



Bill,

Just in case you are not speaking with you tong in cheek, I offer the following info.

At the last PIA meeting Robert Feldman, Attorney for UPT et ux, raised this item and had it put on the agenda to go to USPA as a request.

It is biased upon the USPA directive about low reserve openings, or failure to deploy within 750 feet after AAD confirmed firing.

I did a poll on this form predicting this action. Under Gear & Rigging: "Should the AAD activation altitude be raised to 1250 feet?"

Booth is behind it because his reserves and others, won't always open within the required distance of 300 feet. He has publicly stated on Youtube at the PIA convention http://www.youtube.com/...5#p/u/30/tQuJr5wuvSw that this is his desire, to raise all altitudes.

John

PS; I would support this increase if there was a smattering of proof that it would help. But if a PC won't pull a bag out in 750 feet then I don't see any reason it would do any better from a higher altitude.
We don't need more altitude just gear which works.

JS




Given that there are plenty of recent AAD fires and low-reserve deployments coupled with small, high performance canopies, I can see perhaps why this is being brought about.

It would seem to be a stage-one component of a multi-stage effort, to raise AAD firing points too. I don't accept for a second that Bill is "worried about HIS" reserves as he's more concerned with overall incidents.

Did you mean to say the request for this to be heard is BIASED or BASED? I was at PIA, and didn't hear Feldman speak about "failure to open within 750' of confirmed AAD firing." I did hear/record the discussion about low reserve deployments, but I didn't attend every session, either.

The correct link for the Booth interview is here; http://youtu.be/tQuJr5wuvSw

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...This whole thing is based off of Bill Booth and maybe others wanting to raise the deployment altitudes of AAD's.... But again, there is NOTHING preventing any maker of AAD's from doing that...



I'm going to disagree with that part (and only that part, you make a lot of very good points).

Given the litigious nature of American society, the makers of AADs won't put themselves in a position where a "normal" opening at or near the "legal" minimum pull altitude would reasonably result in a two-out situation.

If they aren't able to say that the AAD wouldn't fire unless the jumper had gone well below a safe pull altitude, and that there's no reasonable way it wouldn't fire unless it was at or near the last possible moment to activate the reserve then the potential for a lawsuit is just too great.

And while I certainly pull higher than 2k, if it is following the BSRs (and therefore "legal") then it must be "safe", right?

I'm not in favor of raising the minimum altitudes, but I also don't believe that AADs will have higher activations altitudes (except for custom/special orders) without it.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Low pulls do not seem to make up the majority of fatality or injury reports anymore. In fact, they are rather small compared to other categories. Nor do they seem to contribute to other incidents. To me, this seems like a solution looking for a problem.

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The reason you feel that 2k is OK, is becuase it's been 'the rule' since you started jumping.



I stopped reading after this because it's wrong. The reason I deploy at 2K (instead of 1.5K, 1K, etc...) is because it's "the rule". The reason I feel that deploying at 2K is OK is based on my gear choices and level of acceptable risk ...



Allow me to back you up with numbers
120 mph= 176 feet/sec
0 ft = ground
750 ft = cypress fire
[need to be in the saddle on a good canopy before this altitude]

3 seconds from main deployment to bridle stretch (includes a 1 second hesitation)
3sec X 176ft/sec=528 feet
500 foot snivel (my canopy)
528+500=1028 feet from pitch to "in the saddle"
1028+750=1778 feet
1778 feet= minimum deployment altitude [for a jumper with: fall rate = 120mph, snivel= 500 ft and cypress fire = 750 ft]

Adjusting for different fall rates:
110 mph => 1734 feet
130 mph => 1822 feet
Adjusting for different snivels:
300 ft => 1578 feet (1534 ft for 110 mph fall rate)
900 ft => 2178 feet (2222 ft for 130 mph fall rate)

To summarize:
Fast faller with long snivel =2200 feet deployment
Slow faller with short snivel = 1534 feet deployment
Most of us = 1800 feet deployment

Some more math:
From 120 mph velocity towards the earth to 30 mph(in the saddle) is a deceleration or negative acceleration. the value of this can be measured in g-forces and depends on how long it take you to go from "fast" to "slow"
g=(fast-slow)/time
1 second => 3.8 to 4.2 G
2 seconds => 1.9 to 2.1 G
3 seconds => 1.3 to 1.4 G
4 seconds => 0.9 to 1.1 G
Where 1 is regular gravity, 3 is the space shuttle launch, 1.5 is a Bugatti Veyron and 4 is a roller coaster.
A 500 ft snivel puts you somewhere in the 2-3 second range.

[opinion,rant] So BSR or no BSR I plan my normal dive around a 3000 foot deployment, hard deck of 2500 and 1800 decision altitude. And I don't need Bill Booth (who is awesome) or the USPA or PIA or anyone to tell me that.
Furthermore: if I get some new AAD that has a different altitude or a new main that has different opening times or a different reserve, or a wingsuit or camera or etc..., I do the math. Do you?.[/opinion,rant]
There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

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3 seconds from main deployment to bridle stretch (includes a 1 second hesitation)
3sec X 176ft/sec=528 feet
500 foot snivel (my canopy)
528+500=1028 feet from pitch to "in the saddle"
1028+750=1778 feet
1778 feet= minimum deployment altitude
[for a jumper with: fall rate = 120mph, snivel= 500 ft and cypress fire = 750 ft]



Where is the cutaway and reserve deployment time and altitude loss?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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2000' is high enough. I have cutaway from a bag lock and streamers having pitched at 2k and was open with brakes un-stowed, headed to the dz at 1100'. No RSL, all manual. Do I need to be open higher under my reserve?


A few of the low reserve pulls/ fatalities came from people who decided to spend too much time trying to fix what they eventually cut away. Look at the videos on youtube, too much time wasted.

KNOW your procedures BEFORE you need to call on them.

My canopy choice is Sabre120's.

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For me, 2k is very 'tight' in terms of time management. I like to swoop, and typically start my turn about 800/900ft up, which means I need to be directly above my initiation point by that altitude, so right off the top, I can knock 800 ft off my deployment time when figuring my 'working time' under canopy. So if I clear my PC at 2k, and am under an open canopy by 1400ft, once I subtract 800ft, that leaves me 600ft of flying time to stow my slider, unstow my brakes, and fly my pattern. That's tight.



So pull higher. Do you really need a BSR to tell you that?

If you don't get a PC out when you wanted... Maybe you don't get to swoop on this load. Know your gear and make your decisions based on that.

This is about a MINIMUM altitude. Poll 100 jumpers on any given DZ and the majority will tell you they pull higher than 2k (I normally pitch at 3k).

This is a non-issue looking for a BSR. There are MUCH better uses of the USPA's time.



+1
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Don't forget the static pressure adjustment that AADs have. They are designed to fire at 750ft for a belly to earth orientation. This means the pressure sensor on the back of a jumper sits in a low pressure burble. The sensor will fire at a lower actual pressure (I think equal to 1100-1200 ft, IIRC) to account for this.

This means that a jumper that is head high (under a sniveling canopy) may have an AAD fire at an altitude higher than 750ft. Also the act of rotating from belly to upright causes a pressure change that to the AAD both lowers the perceived altitude of the jumper as mentioned above and also increases the perceived speed, making it possible to fire an AAD even though the actual speed is less than activation speed.

Just something to keep in mind. I for one would like to be able to increase my AAD activation altitude permanently by 500ft. I like flying my canopy, so I don't pull below 3k. If for some reason I can't pull, whether it is because I am incapacitated physically or mentally (loss of altitude awareness), I want to give my AAD every possible chance of saving my sorry ass. John Sherman can imply that if a reserve won't open in 300 ft it also wont open in 800ft, but can imply that it very well may.

Seth
It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

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3 seconds from main deployment to bridle stretch (includes a 1 second hesitation)



I don't think it takes that long.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Therein lies the problem. How many young jumpers are aware that gear has chnaged, or what it was like when the 2k line was drawn in the sand?



How many of these young jumpers are pulling at 2k? Very few if any that I have seen... Hell, they will not get out of a plane lower than 4k.



Agree. Can't we all be big boys and girls for once?

I could see 'perhaps' raising the C license minimum, even though I disagree with it, but by the time you have a D license, you should have a pretty good understanding of how your gear works, how long it will take your main to open, etcetera. If you don't, well that's just sad. What did you do all those jumps? Were you a pilot or a passenger? I'd like to think that as a "Master parachutist" we have some kind of credibility.

FWIW, I often pull at 2k, but only on 1 of my rigs, and with a wing suit, and even an AAD. But then again, I have a few hundred wing suit base jumps, and specialized skydiving gear, so I am not the 'norm'

_justin

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Some busts are obvious to the naked eye, and more to your point a DZO could indeed tell a jumper to hand over an altitude recording device to prove he/she didn't bust or face being grounded instead. That's the DZO's choice and would certainly prove one way or the other whether a bust occurred.



My N3 (as well as my N2) don't accurately record deployment altitude, they record the attitude I'm in the saddle.

I got a little bit of a chewing by a few people claiming I MUST have busted 2k before I activated, I had VIDEO SHOWING MY ALTITUDE (pointed at my altimeter) at deployment, and they didn't accept that. I trust it over their eyeballs on the ground.


Understood, but if there is a "trouble child" on the DZ, an altitude recording device would be enough proof for a DZO to take action. It's simple, really.

I ran a DZ and I had no problem saying "well little Johnny, your (name your device here) says you "deployed" at 1,500 feet. Now that may mean you pitched at 2,100 or it may mean you pitched at 1,900. Either way, if I see your "deployment altitude" as 1,500 feet again, you're grounded."

Case closed.

Due process never existed on my DZ where jackwads were concerned.;)


Guess I would constantly be in trouble because my Altimaster II will be reading 0' by the time the DZO checks it.

Or, with the DZO tracking opening altitudes with "an altitude recording device", does that mandate me buying one so that I can make a jump at this DZO's DZ? Or is the DZO going to provide them thus requiring another jump ticket price increase?:S


My reply was purely hypothetical based on another post about a DZO forcing someone to hand over a device if they had one.

The bottom line is easier than that for me. If the problem child is consistently staying in freefall for several seconds after everyone else deploys, it really only requires asking others on the group where they dumped to get a good idea whether a low pull occurred.

Splitting hairs with me didn't work at my DZ. I showed more than one person the door when they repeatedly pushed the limits and then wanted to argue about it.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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This isn't about us. It's about the newer jumpers who will push every limit they can, every chance they get. The same thinking that causes a guy with 100 jumps to put on a Gopro when the regs say 200 jumps, is the same thinking that will have him humming it down to 2k, even though he's suppsed to wait until he has 200 jumps (or a C license) for that as well. The thinking, as always, 'I'll be fine, if it's cool for guys with 200 jumps, then it's cool for me too because I'm awesome'.



So you favor further restrictions on the capable because the incapable break the rules?
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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You're numbers don't work as well for wingsuiters.


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if I get some new AAD that has a different altitude or a new main that has different opening times or a different reserve, or a wingsuit or camera or etc..., I do the math.



Its the point I was making at the end of my post. Different jump = different numbers.
You said previously:

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Butters: The reason I feel that deploying at 2K is OK is based on my gear choices and level of acceptable risk ...


and I hope you meant that we don't need a BSR to tell us when to deploy. We can figure it out ourselves.
There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

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LOL changing a number is not going to change what happens. So we are going to put alt police at every dz to make sure you pull higher.(kidding) I think this is another mistake of uspa regulating instead of educating. Its almost as bad as the US government i said almost
My normal pull is at 3500 so change it all you want. I just dont think its going to change anything.
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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