Scary Skyvan exit video

[Zoter 0]

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However, having watched this video, and a similar incident involving a tandem at my home DZ, I'm convinced every airplane should have at least one big knife available at all times.

What would you have done here Tom.....?

[tombuch 0]

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What would you have done here Tom.....?

First thing, calm down. Reduce movement and settle into the new reality. Determine if I'm OK and if there is any imminent danger.

Those of us that trained on a static line learned that if we were "in tow" we were to put our left hand on our head to indicate we were alright (and right hand on belly mounted ripcord), then the JM would cut the static line and we would go into freefall.

SCUBA divers use the same 'hand on head' signal to say they are alright, as do freestyle skiers and snowboarders. So, that's the first thing I would do/look for.

Then I'd want to confirm as best I could that the container wasn't about to open, and from there I'd just chill a bit and build a plan. Ideally, the guy outside would be able to cut the fabric, but that won't always work. In the recent case at The Ranch the tandem pair was hooked on a twisted seatbelt and the belt wouldn't fit inside the blade area. So, somebody inside needed to get a knife and cut the belt.

It's a scary position to be in, but as long as there is a knife available and the container isn't in danger of opening, it's not a super concern. It really just takes a moment of zen, and then action.

The key to survival is to have a big knife in the airplane, communicate with the jumper/pilot, build a plan, and then take action.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Zoter 0]

All good advice ....for sure
But what would your plan of been here?
Seeing things as you see them in the video...
As both the jumper and the next guy on the step....next to the big knife....

Just curious

[tombuch 0]

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But what would your plan of been here?
Seeing things as you see them in the video...
As both the jumper and the next guy on the step....next to the big knife....

First chill. The guy on the step is going nuts, thrashing about and not accomplishing much. I'd probably try to get a bit more stable in the airstream. In that position I'd determine as best I could what the problem is, then make eye contact with the folks in the airplane. Cut the hang up if I could, but otherwise ask for help (that's where the eye contact or hand on head signal comes in). As the guy inside I'd probably try to identify the specific cause, and then get down low to calmly communicate. From there it's a matter of cutting the jumper free.

If there was a threat of the container opening I'd pass word up to the pilot and delegate to somebody inside to get folks ready for an emergency exit at altitude. I'd probably not call for that exit unless it was obvious the container was opening.

I think it was handled well, but one of the best pieces of advice for an emergency is to relax and THINK before you act. It's hard to do that when the crap hits the fan, but it really reduces serious mistakes. Leadership is about remaining calm, gathering as much information as possible, making a "best" decision based on the limited information available, and then taking action.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Zoter 0]

Wouldnt cutting the guy free here kill him??
(hung on reserve risers with his cutaway pulled)


I hear and understand the point you are making though.....keep as calm as you can and make the best plan you can ....
Easier said than done I am sure, but something to try and remember.

[tombuch 0]

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Wouldnt cutting the guy free here kill him??
(hung on reserve risers with his cutaway pulled)


I hear and understand the point you are making though.....keep as calm as you can and make the best plan you can ....
Easier said than done I am sure, but something to try and remember.

If that's the case, then yes, cutting a reserve riser when the cutaway has already been pulled would be the wrong choice. The video isn't clear enough for me to see that. And I guess that's the point. The instant response is to cut. A better response is to relax, figure out what is wrong, and then take action. Based on what I'm seeing in a low res video in a tiny box, I'd cut. Based on what I'm hearing, I wouldn't. So, the case is made to relax and get as much information as possible before taking action.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[dragonfyr 0]

If I was at the door and saw what the video showed, I would have tried one of two things:

1) Drop to my stomach and put my hand out to the guy to try and help him get leverage. I would have tried like hell to haul him into the plane, but I'm sure the wind would have made that quite difficult (but I would have tried). I'm actually surprised everyone just stood there watching with almost nothing done for that period of time.

2) Tried to position myself closer to where it was hung up and try to free it at that spot. However, I think this would be nearly impossible givent the weight on the riser.

Cutting the riser would have been the last thing I would have done, only after trying everything else and figuring out what I was cutting. I mean, once the gear is cut, it's not like it can be put back together in the air.

Then again, all of us have time to watch this several times and think about it versus the snapshot of time it took for it to happen.

Don

[Remster 24]

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I'm convinced every airplane should have at least one big knife available at all times.

I agree... but in this particular case, using it would have probably resulted in a fatality... From Nick, it appears it was the cutaway handle we saw that was tossed... and that cutting him off would have made the reserve rise a bit unpleasant to say the leats....


EDIT: I really need to read the whole thread 1st! lol

Remster

[Praetorian 1]

I'm glad I can tell MY reserve risers from my main risers INSTANTLY. I would NOT have pulled my cutaway handle so quickly.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[flyangel2 2]

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I'm glad I can tell MY reserve risers from my main risers INSTANTLY. I would NOT have pulled my cutaway handle so quickly.

It's hard to say what any of us would have done in that situation when things are happening so fast. It turns out they must have done something right, because the guy and all the people in the plane lived to tell the story.

I for one never say, "I'd have done this or that", cause I don't know, the mind is racing too fast.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[genitor 0]

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not his hooknife, but his cutaway... he thought it was his main risers...

according to the text and discussions (on wuza, topic called impressionnant) one riser was cut around 1third...

What would have happened if it had been his main risers that were hung up when he cut away? Usually, you think of a cutaway when the container is already open, or when you have a total or whatever, which doesn't put any force on the loose risers.

However, in this case, that single riser would have had tension on it. I'm thinking that after cutting away, the jumper would start to fall, dragging out one side of his suspension lines. Then, the main pin would either come out of its loop, or the main container would rip open. After that happened, the other riser would come loose, followed by the main pilot chute being drug/ripped from its pouch.

After all of this occurred, it would be very possible for the main to inflate while still attached to the airplane. Depending on how it was snagged, it might or might not come loose.

Also, because this did end up being a reserve riser, cutting away took away his option of using his main had his reserve been unusable.

So, I'm thinking that in this situation, pulling the cutaway would definitely NOT be the correct action.

Thoughts?

[goose491 0]

Hey Tom,

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned asking for an engine cut. I hardly think this one jumper hung up will be affecting the planes performance all too much.

I'm thinking to myself, if I were next in line and whitnessed this event, my course of action would be very similar to yours. I would, however, have sent word up to the pilot right away that there is a jumper hung up and we are trying to free him. A reduced airspeed would be appreciated? What do you think?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[tombuch 0]

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I'm thinking to myself, if I were next in line and whitnessed this event, my course of action would be very similar to yours. I would, however, have sent word up to the pilot right away that there is a jumper hung up and we are trying to free him. A reduced airspeed would be appreciated? What do you think?

Makes sense. One of the great things about discussing incident like this is that we are build a mental database of potential responses, and if a similar situation happens to us, we will have a wealth of options to call upon. Of course it's all dependent on remaining calm and in command.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[billvon 2,400]

>I would, however, have sent word up to the pilot right away that there
> is a jumper hung up and we are trying to free him. A reduced
> airspeed would be appreciated?

I am thinking that with a significant fraction of the weight in the back of the plane (the dangling jumper, people trying to help) the last thing you would want is reduced airspeed (which = reduced elevator authority, which = higher likelihood of uncommanded loss of airspeed and stall.)

[outlawphx 1]

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Drop to my stomach and put my hand out to the guy to try and help him get leverage.

That's what they did. If you look at the end of the video, it was the guy hanging that got a grip on someone's hand and pulled himself free of the step. I think he was too far from the ramp to try to pull in.

[DrewGPM 0]

what if you move everyone to the front of plane, then cut the engine. Maybe one or two guys could stay to help the guy. There isn't really room more than two people anyway. Maybe have pilot give a little zero G...that might help the guy out.

Maybe do like do when someone breaks through the ice on a river. make a human chain of people laying of thier stomchs. Each person holds on to the knees of the person in front of him. Everyone inch forward until the first person reaches the guy.

One thing is for sure, if you find yourself hanging lioke that, don't cut away until you know you're hanging from!

[frenchyflyer 0]

Exactly, event though it looks as the guys were doing nothing, they were actually trying to get to him but they couldn't, that's why they later try with the foot and finally they form a human chain to get to him and lift him just enough to release the pressure on the risers and let him free.

In fact both main and reserve risers were caught and the hook so cutting it away without closer inspection would have likely resulted in a fatality.

It's quite interesting (as a learning experience) to watch this and determine the best course of action, but it's probably a different story when it actually happens to you (both as the hanger or the next man at the door)...

[billvon 2,400]

>what if you move everyone to the front of plane, then cut the engine.
> Maybe one or two guys could stay to help the guy. There isn't really
> room more than two people anyway. Maybe have pilot give a little
> zero G...

All that would work fine.

But what I think people overlook is how fast this shit happens. I've been involved in a few aircraft emergencies, and they happen fast and are resolved fast (or at least are over quickly.) There is time to do a very few things right (like bailouts, or pulling someone in/pushing them out) and thus practicing things like that are beneficial. There's really not time to tell someone "Hey! There's a guy hanging off the tailgate, but his parachute is not deployed and we're going to try to either pull him back in or get him free. Tell the people in the front to move to the front of the plane, then tell the pilot to throttle back. If he's worried about the CG tell him we moved people." By the time you got all that out the event might well be over. That time might be better spent trying to either haul him in or get him off the snag.

If he's still there in 30 seconds it might make sense to start considering other options like emptying the plane, slowing it down, passing him a knife, making a rope out of seatbelts etc. But most emergencies of this sort require fairly rapid action.

[Pendejo 0]

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But what I think people overlook is how fast this shit happens. I've been involved in a few aircraft emergencies, and they happen fast and are resolved fast (or at least are over quickly.)

This is very true. I was in a king air when a girl exiting had her D-bag hit the door sill as she climbed out (back outside the plane). A friend of mine had pushed her off the plane before anyone had time to say anything let alone do anything about it.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[goose491 0]

But there's no reason for everyone to be at the back of the plane. I imagine too many chefs is the last thing you want in just this sort of kitchen. Also, unless this is the first jumper out, the planes loading is already lessened a bit by departed jumpers.

I actually already have a small flow-chart of action I would go through with a hang up situation such as this one (a non-canopy-typed hangup) IF I was the very next jumper. (meaning I'm right there in front of this guy.)

Surely there will be others with quite a bit more experience then me on the load, but if I'm right there, I am prepared to take charge like this as I have already decided I would rather have the idea in mind, then risk freezing there.

Anyway, the reason I mention that I have a preset course of action is that it includes chosing a small number of jumpers who are also near by, calling them out BY NAME to stay and help me, calling out to a jumper BY NAME to get word to the pilot that there's a jumper hung up and to throttle back if possible, then ordering all other jumpers either to the front of the plane or to GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT!

-"To the front of the plane" if it does not look like a deployment is imminent, and

-"Get out get out get!" out if it does.

Again, given that some of the jumpers may have already left, all others at the front or out of the plane, a reduce airspeed can help out significantly at little risk of a stall. I do agree however that flying a full load with a crowd of disorganized jumpers at the rear is not the best time to throttle back.

NOW, all that being said, I would send the request for reduced airspeed up to the pilot just the same. He/She knows the bird much better then I and they'll do their best.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,400]

>But there's no reason for everyone to be at the back of the plane.

Right. Fortunately, normal exit procedures for a skyvan call for no more than 10 people behind the red line. So as long as you follow normal exit procedures you're OK on weight and balance.

>NOW, all that being said, I would send the request for reduced
> airspeed up to the pilot just the same. He/She knows the bird much
> better then I and they'll do their best.

Right, but the problem is that he does NOT know what's going on back there. After the canopy hangup in Rantoul, the first thing the pilot asked us (after everyone bailed out) was "what the hell just happened?" Probably the best thing you could do for him (if there's time) is just tell him there's a jumper in tow; let him decide how to handle the aircraft based on that info.

[Andy9o8 0]

I'm just glad the jumper in trouble wasn't the very last guy out of the plane. Brrrrrr.

[goose491 0]

Some things to consider in almost any emergency situation:

-Stay Calm, don't panic.

-Think about what's happening. What is your best course of action?

-Take charge if you able to do so.

It is important that somebody do so, don't just wait around. If you are there, and have completed the above-two... you are the one. Don't make reservations about barking out orders to someone with more experience then you.

-Understand that if you cannot do so, remain clam and get out of the way.

(Always paying attention however, situation might change and/or you may be needed.)

-Use Positive Commands when communicating to others.

(i.e. "Hold On!" as opposed to "Don't let Go!")

-Use names and make eye contact with people when delegating duties

(i.e. "John! Tell the pilot we've got a jumper hung up!" as opposed to "Somebody tell the pilot!")

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Zoter 0]

POSITIVE hand signals and physical body language may be more effective in a similar situation

Door open....everyone geared up/helmets on/ ready to go so verbals comms can be not heard/misheard/misunderstood...

To the guys in the aircraft.....A non verbal GET OUT or YOU STAY HERE should be pretty easy to get across from all levels of experience to all levels of experience

Even to the pilot.....simple effective coms ie mouthing slowly and clearly PROBLEM......SLOW DOWN with a suitable hand gesture surely would get the message across more effectively than an conversation

Just my opinion....please feel free to correct

[airdvr 197]

Second time I've seen those nasty hooks on Skyvans cause a problem. First one was back in the '80's...ripped a girls container clean open on exit. I know bwcause I dove into a sea of blue fabric and lines. Worked out OK in the end.

From then on I always looked to see if those hooks are retracted and duct taped over.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne