stayhigh 2
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piisfish 135
maybe the OP only jumped Stilettos with "old-school" brake settings, like super short. I jumped 3 different ones, of different owners, and always landed with brakes between belly and chest. A hip level would fullstall the canopyQuoteI don't get this,
they all turn at the same speed, because I can control how fast i turn with my toggles.
Canopy with shorter control line may seem to turn quicker even on a same canopy.
On all canopies that I jump I like to have no input until about shoulder level.
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scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM
mircan 0
When I changed the brake lines last year on my XF2, it "seemed" more responsive and more "nervous" (the rigger somehow made them shorter). I didn`t like it.
Next day we put them back to the original size, and I got back the original "feel", full flare waaay down at full arm stretch.
IMO it`s just brake line length and personal preference.
Next day we put them back to the original size, and I got back the original "feel", full flare waaay down at full arm stretch.
IMO it`s just brake line length and personal preference.
dudeist skydiver #42
QuoteWhat's wrong with quick toggle response or
what's the advantage of fast canopy with toggle delay?
It makes it easier to control during the swoop/flare. Keep in mind that control response increases with airspeed, so if your toggles are a 'hair trigger' at full flight, imagine the hyper-sensitivity you would get at the bottom of a long dive.
There's a story about John LeBlanc watching landings at the DZ one day, and after watching Stiletto jumpers see-sawing back and forth on the toggles during the flare, came to the conclusion that it was too quick on the toggles, and they dialed out some of the response.
As others have mentioned, any HP canopy can turn fast enough to spin itself up if given enough input. So you tone down the reponse to smooth out the high speed handling, and the pilot can still get any rate of turn they want by just honking down on the thing.
Just to make a comparison, with electric power steering, you could easily make (or just program) a car to give full wheel deflection from 1/4 turn of the wheel. Imagine how easy it would make parking and manuvering, but then imagine how scary it would make going 70mph where if you breathe on the wheel, you'll swerve across three lanes.
format 0
Quotemaybe the OP only jumped Stilettos with "old-school" brake settings, like super short. I jumped 3 different ones, of different owners, and always landed with brakes between belly and chest. A hip level would fullstall the canopy
You're right and I did.
Billvon gave an extra fine explanation that helped me understand the rest of question asked.
I've never been worried about flying different controls nor had problems with 'shoulder level hip level and so'
but landing with different control response did make me worried.
edit: just saw davelepka's post. Tnx
pchapman 261
Not explaining everything, just some aspects of the issue:
1) A "delay in response" in modern canopies may be because there may be more slack in brake lines now, for we expect to have more slack to be able to front riser without applying brakes.
2) Fewer canopies are Spectra lined than at a certain earlier time, so we'll have fewer with shrunk brake lines that remove the slack.
Having slack in the lines may change one's perception of response delay, depending on what one is thinking of, response from zero brakes or response after slack is taken out.
3) Canopies that are really sensitive to small brake deflections might also be more sensitive to spinning up on opening if the opening isn't perfect. So that may be a disincentive to canopy designers to have a canopy like that. It may take minimal extra time for a jumper to use a little more hand motion to snap into a turn, so there's little down side for the jumper. (If one takes the idea too far, yes the canopy will be slower to maneuver if one has to move one's hand all the way down to the waist to get a decent turn.)
4) Longer recovery arcs on canopies could also promote a feeling of a slower initial turn. I'd have to think more about the dynamics to be sure of this.
But let's say you have an old Sabre 1 and snap into a 45 degree turn. It banks and yaws into the turn, pops out of its little dive, and very soon heads off in the new direction. Use a ground hungry canopy instead, it snaps into the turn, but then does a long dive before coming out of the dive.
It may have turned in heading 45 degrees just as fast. But did it fly off as fast in the horizontal direction as fast? Maybe slower, if much of its speed went into the the more vertical dive. But maybe its faster speed in general does get its horizontal component of movement faster despite that.
The turn on the long recovery arc might feel less responsive if it takes longer to complete the whole turn process, to the point of flying normally, even if the initial heading change was just as quick.
So there are some psychological factors involved in evaluating what we perceive as faster or slower to respond.
1) A "delay in response" in modern canopies may be because there may be more slack in brake lines now, for we expect to have more slack to be able to front riser without applying brakes.
2) Fewer canopies are Spectra lined than at a certain earlier time, so we'll have fewer with shrunk brake lines that remove the slack.
Having slack in the lines may change one's perception of response delay, depending on what one is thinking of, response from zero brakes or response after slack is taken out.
3) Canopies that are really sensitive to small brake deflections might also be more sensitive to spinning up on opening if the opening isn't perfect. So that may be a disincentive to canopy designers to have a canopy like that. It may take minimal extra time for a jumper to use a little more hand motion to snap into a turn, so there's little down side for the jumper. (If one takes the idea too far, yes the canopy will be slower to maneuver if one has to move one's hand all the way down to the waist to get a decent turn.)
4) Longer recovery arcs on canopies could also promote a feeling of a slower initial turn. I'd have to think more about the dynamics to be sure of this.
But let's say you have an old Sabre 1 and snap into a 45 degree turn. It banks and yaws into the turn, pops out of its little dive, and very soon heads off in the new direction. Use a ground hungry canopy instead, it snaps into the turn, but then does a long dive before coming out of the dive.
It may have turned in heading 45 degrees just as fast. But did it fly off as fast in the horizontal direction as fast? Maybe slower, if much of its speed went into the the more vertical dive. But maybe its faster speed in general does get its horizontal component of movement faster despite that.
The turn on the long recovery arc might feel less responsive if it takes longer to complete the whole turn process, to the point of flying normally, even if the initial heading change was just as quick.
So there are some psychological factors involved in evaluating what we perceive as faster or slower to respond.
There's always a delay between input and response. From what I remember from my Brian Germain canopy course from a few years ago, I was under the impression that this is at least partly a function of suspension line length, not brake lines. More slack in the brake line may delay the actual input slightly, but that doesn't sound like what the OP is asking about. The way I recall this being explained is that the canopy, lines, harness and pilot are all part of a system. When you change one part of the system, such as by pulling on a toggle or riser, the remaining components must reconfigure themselves toward a new steady state (such as a spiral, dive, flare, etc) The movement of the remaining components into such position takes time. The longer the lines, the longer it takes the suspended weight of the pilot to swing into position to keep the system flying in the new configuration.
There may be other factors at play as well, such as aspect ratio, elliptical-ness, angle of attack and more, but I have a feeling that longer lines will have some effect also. I'm assuming that a swoopier canopy like a crossfire will generally have longer lines than a stilletto, but I may be wrong.
There may be other factors at play as well, such as aspect ratio, elliptical-ness, angle of attack and more, but I have a feeling that longer lines will have some effect also. I'm assuming that a swoopier canopy like a crossfire will generally have longer lines than a stilletto, but I may be wrong.
QuoteQuoteDiablo...now THAT was a quick turning canopy !
There's a time gap between pulling toggle and actual turn (quick turn or slow turn canopy). I recall a Stilleto's got no gap and Diablo has kinda small one (but Diablo's got over_turn).
However, why CF2 has a little toggle delay?
(I mean comparing to Stiletto, there is one)
They are different canopies and designed differently. I bet that the CF2 has a deeper flare point than the Stiletto, Stiletto’s flatten out very quickly around the top of the head/ear level and have a short and shallow flare window. This is probably also the reason why the Stiletto bites and starts to turn faster with less toggle input than other canopies.
they all turn at the same speed, because I can control how fast i turn with my toggles.
Canopy with shorter control line may seem to turn quicker even on a same canopy.
On all canopies that I jump I like to have no input until about shoulder level.
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