Old fart wants to downsize!

[scroadload 1]

I'm 65, 180lbs, have about 2500 jumps in 10 years of jumping, Now jumping a PD210 that has no bottom end, no flair at all. I'm tired of it and want something better. I'm kicking around a Stiletto 170 or 190. I like what PD advertises about it , my friends who jump mainly Sabers think it's to big of a jump, what do you think.

D-2626, SCR1999, SCS641, NSCR2350, GW6909

Blue Skies!!!!!!

[Badabing 0]

I've jumped the stiletto and did not really like the openings a lot. otherwise it was okay..

I would recommend either an Icarus crossfire (good from 1,4 WL) or maybe the Saffire 170 considering your Wingloading. The openings are really nice, and the flare is nice too.

If you're a PD guy the stiletto would probably be okay but there are comparable canopies with better openings plus the design is previous generation.
Never jumped the Sabre. The Katana is nice but is trimmed very steep so its hard to get back from a long spot.

Also the Aerodyne Pilot has nice openings (not as nice as Saffire though) and is a very nice and zippy all round canopy.

Good luck!

P.s. My Progression:

PD 230, 210 (AFF)
Silhouette 190 till 70
Pilot 170 till 250
Stiletto 150 till 350
Crossfire 149 till 600
Crossfire 129 till 1000+

[jonstark 8]

Ever considered a Sabre? I love mine loaded at 1.2.

jon

[scroadload 1]

I have friends that jump Saber I + II but their openings are 700 to 1000ft they tell me and I like a fast opener, 300ft or so.

D-2626, SCR1999, SCS641, NSCR2350, GW6909

Blue Skies!!!!!!

[steveorino 7]

I'm 57 (220#) (2500 jumps in last 10 years) I have jumped a stiletto 150 for the past 6 years. I'm thinking of moving down to Kantana 135 or 150. I don't see any issues with your decision.

steveOrino

[Squeak 17]

Quote

I'm 65, 180lbs, have about 2500 jumps in 10 years of jumping, Now jumping a PD210 that has no bottom end, no flair at all. I'm tired of it and want something better. I'm kicking around a Stiletto 170 or 190. I like what PD advertises about it , my friends who jump mainly Sabers think it's to big of a jump, what do you think.

A stiletto will be A LOT different than the PD210, a 190 would probably be the way I'd go for you

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[jonstark 8]

I prefer a faster opening canopy and find my Sabre to be just what I want. Always opens firm and on heading. 300' would seem to be the norm but I don't wear a clock. I suspect it is less. Never takes off in a weird direction or dive. Once in a blue moon will turn 90 degrees if I have rolled the nose too far off to the side.

jon

[chuckakers 369]

Quote

I'm 65, 180lbs, have about 2500 jumps in 10 years of jumping, Now jumping a PD210 that has no bottom end, no flair at all. I'm tired of it and want something better. I'm kicking around a Stiletto 170 or 190. I like what PD advertises about it , my friends who jump mainly Sabers think it's to big of a jump, what do you think.

A move from a square F-111 210 to a 170 ZP elliptical is pretty big, especially at 65-years old. At 51, I admit that we don't heal like the youngsters, and I believe that has to be considered. Even if your handling abilities are 100%, elliptical canopies can require a pretty brisk "run out" under certain conditions, so unless you are prepared for that, you could find yourself butchering otherwise normal landings.

Assuming you are looking for a stronger flare without going overly hotrod, you might want to consider a Sabre II over a Stiletto. The performance difference between that and an F-111 canopy will be impressive, yet the Sabre won't have the dramatically different flying characteristics of the fully elliptical Stiletto.

I have made over 1,000 jumps on a Stiletto loaded at around 1.5:1 and really like the canopy's all-around abilities, but unless you are specifically looking for the performance - desirable and otherwise - that comes with it, the Sabre may be a better choice.

Be advised that elliptical canopies can line twist MUCH more readily that squares, and when they do they often spin at a rate that necessitates a cutaway. They also require a different mindset and flying strategy because of their ground-hungry nature in and after turns. I won't say that they can't be "sunk in" because I have done it many times, including on my Velocity at 2:1. However, moves like that require a lot of experience to be done well.

Personally, if I was in your shoes (unless you are specifically trying to accelerate your performance substantially) I would look at a Sabre 190. I think you would be impressed with the faster overall speed, much snappier turns, and much improved and deeper flare, yet it would handle in a more familiar fashion. By the way, PD has a terrific demo program that will allow you to check out various canopies before you buy.

One last thing. The best advice I (or anyone else) can give you is to direct your questions via phone to the folks at PD. They REALLY have a grasp on listening to their customers' wants and needs, and matching them up to a canopy that will make them happy short and long term.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[grimmie 173]

Katana 170. I have a 120 and love it. Used to have a Sabre 190, then a Stilletto 150 (2 spinner cutaways) and now the Katana. Opens great, flares great. JMHO.

[cocheese 0]

All the cool kids are wingsuiting. Maybe get something mellow for a wingsuit?
How about a PD Storm 190?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

I'm 65, 180lbs, have about 2500 jumps in 10 years of jumping, Now jumping a PD210 that has no bottom end, no flair at all. I'm tired of it and want something better. I'm kicking around a Stiletto 170 or 190. I like what PD advertises about it , my friends who jump mainly Sabers think it's to big of a jump, what do you think.

You don't want a Stiletto (I say that although I love mine, put 600 jumps on it, and think it's a good all-around canopy for non-swoopers) and also don't want to downsize at the same time you transition to a much more aggressive design (Stiletto, Katana, Crossfire, Samurai, etc. in no particular order).

The Stiletto is more responsive to toggle input than any other PD canopy whether that input is intended or not - John LeBlanc made the following designs less sensitive after observing jumpers having problems with roll-axis stability on landing. Less size amplifies the effect and when I switched from my Batwing 134 to my Stiletto 120 the thing didn't always swoop in a straight line until I got a better feel for it.

That makes it easier to break or kill yourself. Here's a fatality from a low turn under a Stiletto loaded at "just" 1.2 pounds per square foot http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3709212

You do want something that's not rectangular since that gets you a lower stall speed and wing that's more responsive and fun to fly.

The PD Sabre II, Aerodyne Pilot, and Icarus Safire 2 are all options that fit that bill, aren't too extreme, and "fly like nine cells". They feel different and fly a little different with various people preferring each model so you'd want to try all three. These modern designs also open softer than older ZP squares like the Sabre and Monarch which is a good thing as long as you are pulling at 3000 feet on terminal jumps not 2000 feet (If you add an 1800' USPA recommended cutaway decision altitude to an 800' opening distance you get to 2600 feet).

There's nothing wrong with how Spectres fly and land but I didn't care for how they flare compared to nearly all the nine cell canopies (Turbo Z/Sabre/Monarch/Bat Wing/Stiletto/Blade Runner/Crossfire/FX/Samurai) I've flown.

Trying a 190 and getting used to landing with plane-out and "the two stage flare" would be a fine idea even if you end up buying a 170. If you're running on landing and don't have complicating factors like a tail wind or distance landing in a swoop competition you're doing things sub-optimally and want to dial that in before trying the smaller faster model. It'll also let you make an apples-to-apples comparison with your existing canopy so you can tell what's canopy design and what's a size side effect.

Much more aggressive designs are going to point themselves at the ground with less input and if that's what you eventually want it's prudent to get there in steps so your muscle memory and perceptions aren't too far behind the canopy. Many also stay in a dive and build speed longer before returning to trim speed which also makes getting their incrementally a fine idea.

[AggieDave 6]

Do yourself a huge favor and demo two canopies for me before you buy a Stiletto.

1. Storm 190
2. Sabre2 190

If I was buying a canopy in that class of canopy right now, it would be a toss up between those two canopies. The Storm is perfect for doing a lot of everything (and has become popular with camera guys and wingsuiters).

The Sabre2 can be pushed and swoop really well when flown in that manner. It still opens well and has a big time resell value.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skyjumpenfool 2]

I have a Sabre 135 in one rig, and a Stiletto 135 in another. I enjoy both.

I did some CRW on the CRW Storm a couple years ago, which I loved! So, I demo'd a couple PD Storms... I absolutely loved the canopy. I'd agree with AggieDave above, try the Storm.

FYI... Storm is a 7 cell and packs a little smaller if that's an issue?

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Nutz 0]

I love my Safire. I am 220-230 so I am loading it more than you would but, you don't realize how fast a landing is on something zippy.
I found out this year, I'm 49, that I can't run as fast and don't heal nearly as fast as I used to. Just something to think about.

Oh, it's a 190. 1.3-1.4 er, 189

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[wmw999 2,116]

You can pack a lot of canopies to open faster (I like faster openings, too). Even my Stiletto. But a Sabre 1 naturally opens faster, and I think a Triathlon does as well.

Test jump stuff; your DZ might have Sabres of some type in their student gear -- consider putting a couple of jumps on the student rigs, or borrowing others' gear, as well as official demo jumps.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,116]

You can pack a lot of canopies to open faster (I like faster openings, too). Even my Stiletto. But a Sabre 1 naturally opens faster, and I think a Triathlon does as well.

Test jump stuff; your DZ might have Sabres of some type in their student gear -- consider putting a couple of jumps on the student rigs, or borrowing others' gear, as well as official demo jumps.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[bodypilot90 0]

I've heard the storm is trimed even steeper than a spectre you might enjoy the pulse and it packs nicely or maybe a pilot.

[davelepka 4]

Hey John, good idea to ditch the PD210. If you don't fire an F-111 canopy in time, it will up and quit on you when you really need it (during the flare).

Do yourself a favor and take a look at a Spectre. Wink only jumps Spectres and he has for years. He currently has a 135, 150, and a 170. They're available used at any price point, and a 190 would be a great transition canopy from your 210.

The Stiletto is a bit of a stretch based on your experience. One of the things that makes the Stiletto a Stiletto is that is has very little stability in the roll axis. It doesn't want to fly straight, and it won't do it by iteslf. The upside is that it helps the canopy to turn quickly, the downside is that it makes it extremely touchy in the flare to asymetical inputs. 3000 to 3500 of my jumps are on Stilettos and they are great canopies, just not coming right off a big F-111.

If you're thinking about buying a new canopy (bad idea, too hard to pack), hold off untill the spring and demo the Sabre2 and Storm from PD. The Sabre2 is a 9 cell, and the Strom a 7 cell, and see which one floats your boat. PD should have both in stock, so you can have one in your hands the week after you demo.

[dragon2 0]

Another vote for PD Sabre II, Aerodyne Pilot, and Icarus Safire 2. Personally I didn't like the storm that much, you might though. A spectre is an awesome canopy but can take forever to open, sound not like what you're after.

Then again, instead of the above options, you might want to look at a 2nd hand sabre 1 190 if you can find one in good shape and are not set on buying new. A sabre 1 will be a faster opening canopy than any of the later designs. But still fly, steer and flare a whole lot better than ragged-out F111.

I would not get a stiletto if I were you. Slow openings, very very sensitive to body position on opening and on flaring, and I think the canopy with the most roll, intended or not. That would be about the opposite canopy from what you're used to.

If you want to jump a stiletto, I would advise a good number of jumps on a sabre 2 class canopy first. But I bet you'll fall in love with a sabre 2 class canopy anyway

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[firstime 0]

I went from the 300 to 400' openings to the 800 to 1000" openings and at 54 yrs old that was sweet. I went from a sabre 1 to the spectre, the spectre is like falling into a ball of cotton. The brisk openings would not bother me 10 yrs ago but now it's not enjoyable

[Pulse 0]

I know you said you want something "better". But why do you want to downsize?

Any ZP canopy is going to have a better flare than well-used F111.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

I have friends that jump Saber I + II but their openings are 700 to 1000ft they tell me and I like a fast opener, 300ft or so.

An original Sabre is not going to do that unless you've modified it using something like an over-sized slider with a pocket on it to catch air and slow down the opening.

Kids these days whine about them "opening hard."

The only things the Sabre 2 has in common with the original is that it's made by PD, starts the name with "Sabre", and is a nine-cell parachute.

It fits current market expectations for soft but long openings.

Brian Germain tuned the Samurai (not appropriate - it's aggressive and likes to dive) and Lotus (tapered 9 cell, should work great) for gentle openings that didn't take that long so they're somewhere in-between although both have been discontinued so you'd need to buy used.

[scroadload 1]

Thanks to all of you that have responded to my post. I am leaning away from the Stiletto because it may be to much of a leap, also leaning away from the Saber and Spectre because of the opening distance(I prefer to open lower). I am now considering the Aerodyne Pilot 168 although I'm not sure yet how long it takes to open. Can any one make a comment on that? I'm sure some of you may wonder why I like to open lower, well I would rather be tracking for another 500ft then going straight down doing nothing.

D-2626, SCR1999, SCS641, NSCR2350, GW6909

Blue Skies!!!!!!

[AggieDave 6]

The Pilot opens like most other modern designed canopies. Very similar to the Sabre2 and the Spectre in that regard (opening time/distance).

You may be entering a paradigm shift for your skydiving experience.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wayneflorida 0]

Quote

Thanks to all of you that have responded to my post. I am leaning away from the Stiletto because it may be to much of a leap, also leaning away from the Saber and Spectre because of the opening distance(I prefer to open lower). I am now considering the Aerodyne Pilot 168 although I'm not sure yet how long it takes to open. Can any one make a comment on that? I'm sure some of you may wonder why I like to open lower, well I would rather be tracking for another 500ft then going straight down doing nothing.

My pilot 168 loaded at 1.1 opens 700-800 feet. I do not roll the nose.