Dropzone.com purchase (Caveat Emptor)

[43_echo 0]

This my first post and sorry it had to be about a purchase through the classified ads but want to bring about an awareness so it doesn't happen to you.

I looked at an ad in mid January about a canopy for sale. Ad stated: For Sale Sabre II 170

Price 1,600.00 usd

Canopy is in great condition. No tears and patches. Never wet, always landed on grass and packed indoors. Bought new canopy has 200 jumps.

After a few emails to the seller I purchased the canopy and received it about the 23rd. I opened the box when it arrived but never fully examined the canopy as I was planning on having my local dropzone rigger examine it. I sent him an email and stated that I haven't had it checked out but did appreciate that he kept all the lines on the slinks and I was going to take it to my rigger for the check.

Turns out that I finally had the chance to have someone at the local DZ check the canopy. At first when removing it from the box it looked nice but upon spreading the canopy out it was very visable that the top skin had a stain or UV damage going from the 2nd cell to the center cell. When you opened the nose you could see the color faded from top to inside. The person who inspected the canopy was Don Kellner of Above the Poconos skyding center. He told me to either ask for a refund or at the least get $600.00 back as that was all the canopy was worth.

I contacted the seller who says that I did the damage and when he sent it it was fine! BS! I kept in my walk-in closet and there are no windows and was kept in the box that it was sent to me in. I had a Para-Commander rig from the 70's that was red, white & blue kept in the same closet and never had any discoloration to it.

The seller now has refused to compromise with me so that I can send it to PD to have the needed repairs done or the money back for the canopy.

To think for $600.00 more dollars I could have had a brand new canopy.......

I am posting this so that people here don't make the same mistake as I and if you buy anything......have it sent to your local DZ and inspected before any money changes hands. If the seller refuses then that is the first signal to not buy it. Jude

[ShcShc11 0]

Thank you for the post.
Would help people like me in the future

[stratostar 5]

First let me say that I'm sorry for your problem. However a good deal of blame is on you for not doing a brokered deal with the seller. If your not sure what I'm talking about, it's this.... You should have checked out the seller via their DZO where they claim to jump. Then you should have set the deal up to go through your dzo or rigger, so that after an inspection, IF everything is cool the third party then releases/sends the money to them. Or you could send the money to their DZO on condition that the gear will be inspected and once passing inspection the DZO could release the money.

Any honest person and or DZO or Rigger would be happy to help you and do a deal like that, it covers all parties in most cases. Anyone who won't work with you on a deal like that you need to stay away from.

It also sounds like this canopy might have been jumped in the SW, places like Eloy & Perris will trash a canopy pretty fast when jumped out there and they often look like what your talking about.

You should have never sat on the canopy and waited to inspect it as well, day one you inspect it, I'm pretty sure if you got a PC in storage, you can tell a new canopy with 200 jumps on it from a trashed one.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[stayhigh 2]

Needs name of the seller and what dz.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[SEREJumper 1]

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Needs name of the seller and what dz.

+1

We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

[Squeak 17]

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Needs name of the seller and what dz.

+1

why? you have one persons view of the deal and an unknown poster at that.
Far to many people on here seem to like witch hunting.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[43_echo 0]

Squeak, I may be a unknown poster here but I think I have had dealings with SereJumper. In fact I think he was the person I sold that Para-Commander I spoke about aprox. 2 years ago?

I could have exposed the person I dealt with here and am a patient person who is still giving this person time to come clean and at least give me the $600.00 back so I can have the canopy fixed.

[43_echo 0]

stratorstar, I agree with you and mentioned that in my first post. This is just my bad experience being shared here to maybe help some other person.

Funny you should mention that this sounds like a canopy from the SW! That is exactly what Don said. No it came from the State of Massachuetts.

As I mentioned when I first opened the box the canopy appears to be in a newer condition. It even sounds very crisp. Being it was in a packed state and the lines rigger rolled, the majority looked fine IO felt it was in good condition. I work over 60 hours a week and with the weather we have been having in PA. the DZ for the most part has been closed. I jnow I should have called but the feel and sound of the canopy lead me to believe that the rest of it was in good condition too. I did drive to the DZ on 2 different occasions but no one was there.

[Squeak 17]

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Squeak, I may be a unknown poster here but I think I have had dealings with SereJumper. In fact I think he was the person I sold that Para-Commander I spoke about aprox. 2 years ago?

I could have exposed the person I dealt with here and am a patient person who is still giving this person time to come clean and at least give me the $600.00 back so I can have the canopy fixed.

My post was never directed towards you nor was it intented for you to be portrayed in a negative way. I was merely highlighting some peoples over zealous nature in burning others at the virtual stake without sufficient "evidence" or information

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[davelepka 4]

Caveat emptor is all I can say up to this point, but in terms of what to do now, I have a couple ideas.

I would place a call to the sellers home DZ and explain the situation. See if they have any input or ideas, and see if they know who the sellers rigger is. if there was damage to the canopy, there's a chance that the rigger or someone at the DZ would have known about it. If the canopy is as you described, crispy and new except for some localized damage, that would something that a jumper might show people at the DZ looking for input/info.

In terms of that damage, it might have been due to a cutaway and spending some time 'lost' and sitting in the sun. If just one part of the canopy was exposed to the sun for a couple days, that's the damage that would occur. Again, the rigger might have a record of an 'unscheduled' repack, and the DZ might remember spending some time looking for a cutaway main.

Beyond that, I would stay on the seller to make good. Maybe agree to split the cost of an inspection at PD where they can give you a hard price for the repairs, and then you can proceed from there, at least you would know where you stand.

If they guy wants to stonewall you, post up his name, user name and location. Again, you might find that someone out there knows the guy and the canopy and might be able to back up your story that there's something wrong with the canopy.

A note to others - PD is an awesome company who is really easy to work with. If you're looking to buy a used PD canopy, have the seller ship it to PD for an inspection and have them copy you on all the emails between them and PD. Once the canopy passes, you can pay the seller, and they can inform PD to ship the canopy to you. Nice and easy.

[Ron 7]

Dave gave you the best advice.....

Do brokered deals unless you personally know the person or can see the item before money changes hands.

That being said, I would offer the seller to cancel the deal and him refund your money. If he refuses, I would post his name.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[43_echo 0]

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Caveat emptor is all I can say up to this point, but in terms of what to do now, I have a couple ideas.

I would place a call to the sellers home DZ and explain the situation. See if they have any input or ideas, and see if they know who the sellers rigger is. if there was damage to the canopy, there's a chance that the rigger or someone at the DZ would have known about it. If the canopy is as you described, crispy and new except for some localized damage, that would something that a jumper might show people at the DZ looking for input/info.

In terms of that damage, it might have been due to a cutaway and spending some time 'lost' and sitting in the sun. If just one part of the canopy was exposed to the sun for a couple days, that's the damage that would occur. Again, the rigger might have a record of an 'unscheduled' repack, and the DZ might remember spending some time looking for a cutaway main.

Beyond that, I would stay on the seller to make good. Maybe agree to split the cost of an inspection at PD where they can give you a hard price for the repairs, and then you can proceed from there, at least you would know where you stand.

If they guy wants to stonewall you, post up his name, user name and location. Again, you might find that someone out there knows the guy and the canopy and might be able to back up your story that there's something wrong with the canopy.

A note to others - PD is an awesome company who is really easy to work with. If you're looking to buy a used PD canopy, have the seller ship it to PD for an inspection and have them copy you on all the emails between them and PD. Once the canopy passes, you can pay the seller, and they can inform PD to ship the canopy to you. Nice and easy.

Dave, It was also said to me that it may also be damage from a cutaway and was hanging in a tree for awhile. I mentioned that to him and the seller balked at that, saying it was never cut away.

On a side note he had a facebook page and now I see it is down! Hmmm

[BIGUN 1,050]

What was the duration of time between shipping acceptance and rigger inspection?


In other words, how long did it sit in the closet until you had it inspected?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[43_echo 0]

It was delivered January 23, 2012 and had it inspected March 4, 2012.

[BIGUN 1,050]

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It was delivered January 23, 2012 and had it inspected March 4, 2012.

Absent of anything written - The reasonable time to inspect is usually two weeks.

The buyer didn't technically even have to address your allegations. All s/he had to do was say, "You had more than a reasonable amount of time to inspect the gear. When I didn't hear from you after two weeks, I was left with the assumption that you had accepted the gear."

In this case, had you had it inspected the week it was received and told the same story...

This is why stuff needs to be written out before any money exchanges hands. Courts are filled with contracts that are pages long. To think that not writing anything down is going to result in an amicable transaction given our now community of 30,000+ is a mistake. Both sides can have the best of intentions, it's now a matter of which side is more wrong.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[likestojump 3]

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It was delivered January 23, 2012 and had it inspected March 4, 2012.

Wow, as a seller I would be very hard pressed to find that period of time reasonable. I usually stipulate a 7 calendar day period that starts the day the product is received.

Since we haven't heard from the seller I want to mention that I very much agree with the possibility that davelepka presented - a cutaway resulting in a sunfade spot. I am also attaching a few pics of an all-blackberry canopy that had under 30 jumps when was cutaway and left in the tree for a few weeks.

Unfortunately in the almost 6 weeks time lots of things could have happened (all these are hypotheticals) - a cat could have peed on the canopy and that too can result in an uneven fade spot, as can leaving the canopy unpacked in your sunroom.

Since this is brought out in public, it would be super interesting to hear from the seller, as every story has at least two sides.

[43_echo 0]

I know you can only hear one side of the story but I didn't even receive the container I ordered for this canopy as of yet. I was a Military rigger and know about UV effecting nylon. It was store in a dark walk-in closet 10' X 12' with no windows and sealed in the 10" cube box he shipped it in. Being he knew about the damage and sold it that way is wrong. I don't care what anyone says. He knew it was damaged but sold it as almost new. It was never in any sumlight as I first looked at it at work in my back office which again has no windows and then yesterday laid out on the packing mat. Basically even though I had to wait to have it looked at, it still was sold to me under the wrong impression.

Now being his facebook site is removed, that tells me he is covering his tracks. But that again is my problem and I do have an attorney in the family. Selling gear to use in skydiving that may be flawed is very low. Then not disclosing it......I sent him my last email stating that I wanted a refund and that I would hand the canopy over to my local DZ and as soon as they receive the money I paid, they will send him the canopy back. If I don't hear from him I will post his info.

[airtwardo 6]

Basically even though I had to wait to have it looked at...I was a Military rigger and know about UV effecting nylon.

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I know hindsight is 20/20, but you were a rigger & know about material degradation, ya 'should' have been on that thing the day it arrived.

I had a brand new reverve hung up and went over it with a flashlight & a magnifying glass the day it arrived, if there would have been a problem it looks better if you say:

'It arrived this morning ~ I just pulled this P.O.S. outta the box and...'


Just wondering...if it's on the top-skin only...and he used a packer exclusively....maybe he didn't know it was discolored?

I mean, I know guys that don't know what color their pilot-chute is!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[43_echo 0]

OK, I see he has now removed his personal info from this site.

The guy who sold this to me was kdrivas1989.

[likestojump 3]

googling his username reveals this : http://www.justguys.net/kdrivas1989

ha !

[pchapman 261]

Re: kdrivas1989

You may need to say more about who it was (or apparently was). That handle does show up on google in the email address of a skydiving jumpsuit dealer, complete with name and location. One wouldn't want to accuse the wrong person.

[airtwardo 6]

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Re: kdrivas1989

You may need to say more about who it was (or apparently was). That handle does show up on google in the email address of a skydiving jumpsuit dealer, complete with name and location. One wouldn't want to accuse the wrong person.

Since the OP stated where it came from, this search leads to who it probably is...

http://www.hookit.com/members/kdrivas1989/

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[43_echo 0]

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googling his username reveals this : http://www.justguys.net/kdrivas1989

ha !

That is the dude! I have his full address too.

[airtwardo 6]

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googling his username reveals this : http://www.justguys.net/kdrivas1989

ha !

That is the dude! I have his full address too.

Bad news is~ 22 year old college student, you money is GONE!

Good news is~ he appears to be a proficient skydiver, competitions etc...your money MAY not be gone once it's explained/understood that this is a rather small community and ya don't wanna be known as a ripper offer if ya want to stay in it

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ron 7]

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It was delivered January 23, 2012 and had it inspected March 4, 2012.

Ah, that is too long to wait. A lot can happen in a month and the seller can easily think you might have caused the damage.

In the future, YOU inspect it as soon as you open it. And get it to a rigger to inspect it before two weekends have passed.

If during your inspection you find something out of order, email the seller that second (use email that way you have a record) and get it to a rigger to look at ASAP.

After a month.... It is going to be difficult to prove it came that way.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334