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43_echo

Dropzone.com purchase (Caveat Emptor)

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Being it was stored as received in a 10" cube box, the only UV damage was to the top cells (not all and uneven). As I said before but may have been taken out of text was that I was a rigger in the U.S. Army and know how sunlight can damage nylon. I surely didn't have it laid out as some type of cover or in any sunlight period. It was store as I mentioned before in a walk-in closet in the box.

Yes, I did wait a little more than a month but being I am not a FAA certified rigger and this time of year in the N.E. our skydiving club is usually closed due to winds and other weather.

I am to blame for not making a phone call and maybe try to schedule it to be looked at but then again, if the damage was DISCLOSED before I purchased it I would have made sure that I didn't pay top dollar for a canopy that wasn't worth it and made sure itr was checked out. Looking at it when it first arrived it was placed in a Walmart bag and then in the box. I did remove the canopy from box and bag but being the lines were daisy-chained I really couldn't see the difference in color until it was fully opened up. Here is a picture once it was opened and you can see the UV discoloration.

It is still jumpable and that is not my complaint. It is that I paid much more than it was really worth.

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It was delivered January 23, 2012 and had it inspected March 4, 2012.



Ah, that is too long to wait. A lot can happen in a month and the seller can easily think you might have caused the damage.

In the future, YOU inspect it as soon as you open it. And get it to a rigger to inspect it before two weekends have passed.

If during your inspection you find something out of order, email the seller that second (use email that way you have a record) and get it to a rigger to look at ASAP.

After a month.... It is going to be difficult to prove it came that way.



This was my first gut reaction. Assume that the seller honestly thought it was tip top, and was unaware of the damage, and now 6 weeks later the person he sold it too says, "Hey! This thing is messed up!" it's easy to see how an honest mistake on his part is now being viewed as a buyer trying to rip him off. (not that you are or aren't, but the situation isn't very cut and dry anymore)

just my .02
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

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Is that all supposed to be the same color? What did it start off as, Royal Blue?

If that's the topskin and it's next to the inside of the cells, there's clearly a problem. It looks closer to a faded Navy Blue than anything that started off as Royal.

Given the type of damage, your location, and the time of year, I'd say you have a pretty good case for fraud. That's not a tear or broken seam that you could have caused, even with one jump. That's severe fading that would take a signigficant amount of time to develop, so unless you left it out in the sun for a couple weeks, there's no way you could have caused that damage.

Beyond that, who out there in the great Northeast knows Kevin whats-his-face? Seems like a guy with enough jumps and time in the sport that he's got to have some friends, and some of them have to be on here on DZ.com. Anyone know where he jumps?

If not a friend, anyone know him casually from the DZ? Let's start to circle the wagons and get this guy's attention. This clearly looks like a bad deal, and for the guy to just try and vanish on the buyer is downright shady.

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I tend to agree with Ron a months seems like a bit too long to wait to inspect it and complain. I buy and sell lot's of gear on dropzone.com every year and I guarantee everything I sell. I have never had anyone ask for a refund or a return yet but if a buyer was not happy I would certainly take it back. I believe two weeks is plenty enough time to have a rigger look at it or even test jump it.

That said it is not worth my reputation as a seller and a rigger to have an unhappy customer so I would have given the refund anyway. Maybe in the future I will set a time limit for returns so the buyer won't wait a month before having it inspected.
Onward and Upward!

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Selling something that is not what your claim it to be is fraud. Not disclosing a flaw is fraud. The canopy was never listed with any disclaimer saying "as is". Again, being I am not a FAA licensed rigger, I opened the package to verify that there was a canopy in it and found the Date of Man. tag being the canopy looked as if it was just removed from a D-bag and put into the box. Tag was right in view. Being it was still folded I couldn't see the color variation as compared to the underside skin so the fading wasn't noticeable. The lines were daisy chained and just wanted to keep it that way until it was examined. There was never any indication of flaws. Before I posted here I had made contact with seller to renegociate the price as I was told it was worth about $1,000.00 instead of the $1,600.00 I paid. At first I never asked for a full refund just the $600.00. He denied that it was UV damaged so I then just asked for a refund. He kept asking for pics and I sent him the one posted here and now he just disappeared.

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Yes, I did wait a little more than a month but being I am not a FAA certified rigger and this time of year in the N.E. our skydiving club is usually closed due to winds and other weather.



That damage is easy for a layperson to notice and you said you were a rigger in the Service. There is ZERO reason for you to not have really looked at it as soon as it showed up. This is even MORE important if it is going to be awhile till you can get a rigger to look at it.

None of what I am writing is removing the seller from promising "X" and delivering "Y". Nothing. I have already said that you should ask for a refund and if that does not happen out the person.

All I am doing is showing you what you and others need to do in the future.

1. Use a broker
2. Inspect it personally as soon as reasonably possible... 12 hours or less.
3. If there is anything you are unsure or unhappy about, contact that person IMMEDIATELY.
4. Have the item inspected as soon as is reasonably possible.... Two weeks is normal.

But by waiting a month, the money is most likely gone and the seller has a reasonable argument that it was not like that when he sent it out.

He could easily argue that you opened it up in your living room and left it in the corner near the window.

YOU claim it was in perfect storage conditions and it arrived that way, but there is NO WAY to verify that. But if left sitting in the sun for a month, that damage could easily have happened.

HE claims it was perfect when he shipped it, but there is NO WAY to verify that either.

If you had responded within a day of receiving the item, then it would be easy to prove it was not done by you. As it is.... there is no way to prove you are right.

You have done everything you really can at this point... you have contacted him and offered two resolution options (600 bucks back, or negate the deal).... Knowing how most people are living paycheck to paycheck.... I'd bet your money is long since been spent.

So you can try to circle the wagons and get the lynch mod after him.... But I'll play devils advocate here state that we only have your side of the story.

If he had come onto DZ.com and posted, "I sold a guy a PERFECT canopy with 200 jumps on it and now a month later he is claiming that it was damaged and is demanding 600 dollars back! I bet they guy left it in his car and then saw the damage!"

He would have exactly the same *proof* as you. But if you had waited 1 hour instead of one month.... you would have him dead to rights.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Well, where is Kevin? About 2 years ago I sold a vintage 1972 Paracommander with a 26' Stong Lopo reserve to (I am almost positive) SEREJumper. It was stored in the same closet as the Sabre II since 1983. That was a chute that I had't jumped in a long time and they both were still airworthy with 0% UV damage. At least there is one person who knows how I take care of equipment.

I hope one would think that I wouldn't store q canopy opened up in direct sunlight to ruin it and then try and get my money back nor want to do that to a canopy I paid $1,600.00 for and planned on jumping it.

I work over 60 hours a week and time sometimes goes by faster than I realize. That is no excuse but for anyone who thinks I would be stupid enough to ruin a canopy is wrong. In fact I just ordered a brand new QuasarII to put this canopy in. The only reason I purchased a used main was that down the road I wanted to down size and felt I could sell it being it was suppose to be in great condition. I should be getting it this week.

Fraud is fraud and personally knowing that I had nothing to do with the condition of this canopy is good enough reason to persue by any means to get a refund. I didn't post this problem here to start a witch hunt but being the seller started to cover his tracks shows me who I was dealing with. When he had his ad running here I looked up his personal info as would any buyer. Now he cleaned it up. I do have some leads and will be persuing them.

From the support I have received in PM's I just want to thank you. I owe you guys one!

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Look man,

We all know it's bullshit you got ripped off and burned like that, there is no excuse for that period. Also no one is saying you can't take care of gear.

However, what is being said is here is, FACT: you dropped the ball in many ways on this deal and you need to own up to that fuck up and for the most part you have. But bottom line is you dropped the ball by not using a broker or fully opening up the canopy and doing a full inspection the day that it showed up or drop shipping to your rigger or PD for inspection, a little homework goes a long way. Because in the past other people have been burned on here buying from people they don't know and from states away.

A quick search on here would have shown you there is a lot of good advice on here about buying from DZ.com and people you don't know. I have done transactions on here a number of times and never got burned or burned anyone else, when I buy or sell I check out that person via a call to the dz they claim to jump at for many reasons, one of those being to make sure I'm not selling to someone who has no business jump it.

I'm a rigger, but not being a rigger is no excuse for not doing your own inspection ASAP, more so when you have rigging experience in the past, had you done so this matter may have turned different, however I lean towards the seller being a low life who knew he sold you over priced shit and burned you.

Let this be a lesson to anyone else who is seeking to buy used gear from those they don't know. I hope you find a resolve to this matter, but sadly I think your screwed.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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stratostar,

Thank you for your reply. My first post on this thread was basically what you said, never pay for anything first - broker a deal. At least go through Paypal with buyer protection.

Looking the way Kevin handled this after I did get it examined, I really don't think it would have turned out any different if I had it inspected the same day I received the canopy. He would have never returned any money for a refund. Yes, broker a deal.

In a way, I actually feel sorry for him. He knows what he pulled.

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43 echo,

The most important thing I hope you take away form this is that not all people in this sport are low life scum bags who will rip you off. 90% of the skydiving world are great people, but there is the 10% out there. I hope you are not soured on the sport now and can find resolve and go on to be a happy jumper with nice gear and do your part to pass on the lessons (all of them) that you learn the hard way to the next batch of up and coming jumpers in your neck of the woods, you'll be a better person for it and the sport will be better for it too.

Best of luck to you and always remember to drive fast, take chances and date your rigger wife.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Here is my take:

I highly doubt a change in the canopy's condition occured between when you received the canopy and when you stored it. It was stored in a closed closet, in a box.

There is obviously a difference in opinion between how the seller views the condition of the canopy and how you and your rigger view the condition of the canopy.

The seller can probably get away with telling you to pound sand, you waited a long time to inspect.

I think it would be best for the seller to return you your money less shipping, and for you to give the seller the canopy back.

If the canopy is really worth 1600 he will be able to sell it for that same amount again, the seller is made whole.

If the canopy is worth less that 1600 he will get what it is worth down the road. You didn't contribute the canopy's current condition.

It just appears to be a much better solution that asking for a partial refund. Just start from scratch for both of you.

I don't think he is trying to screw you, I think he has a completely different understanding of the condition of the canopy. If you were the seller you would be equally suprised.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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As the seller of this canopy...when I sent the canopy to you it was in good condition, you could hook it up on to risers and jump it, there was no discoloration, nor stain. I sent the canopy to you, you received the canopy and thanked me for keeping the lines together. You had the canopy for a month and a week, I had not heard from you, I figured everything was alright and I purchased a new canopy because I was downsizing. I have no way of knowing what you did with the canopy in that month and week, you claim it was in a box, you could have left it out near a window, a cat could have urinated on it etc. etc. I'm sorry you feel this way but I have done nothing wrong. That canopy was in good condition when I shipped it to you. As far as what happened while it was in your possession, I unfortunately can't say.
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As the seller of this canopy...when I sent the canopy to you it was in good condition, you could hook it up on to risers and jump it, there was no discoloration, nor stain. I sent the canopy to you, you received the canopy and thanked me for keeping the lines together. You had the canopy for a month and a week, I had not heard from you, I figured everything was alright and I purchased a new canopy because I was downsizing. I have no way of knowing what you did with the canopy in that month and week, you claim it was in a box, you could have left it out near a window, a cat could have urinated on it etc. etc. I'm sorry you feel this way but I have done nothing wrong. That canopy was in good condition when I shipped it to you. As far as what happened while it was in your possession, I unfortunately can't say.



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What's your home drop-zone?

Any way the OP can get in touch with your rigger and verify through them that the canopy had no discoloration the last time HE/SHE saw it?

I think with a little detective work it would be pretty easy to PROVE who's pulling a fast one, not saying it's YOU...but don't you kinda wanna show that if you can?

Just sounds a bit fishy that you come on here claiming word for word what people have speculated you would say...IMHO

The Skydiving world is a small tight community, you guys should try to work this out so there is no grief on either side, it WILL pay off in the long run trust me! B|











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Just waiting for her to reply to my email



Or ~ ya could let the OP contact her via telephone, it's done all the time I'm told! ;)


What's the OP


The 'Original Poster'...the ex-military rigger who understands UV degradation and how to prevent it, they person you sold the canopy to who is claiming they kept in the box in a dark temperature controlled environment. :)

Why not give the OP the rigger's contact information and let that person follow up?










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I wouldn't change it because hopefully your home drop zone is filled with friends and people who know you that would stand up for you as being an honest reliable stand up guy. Removing your info appears like you have something to hide rather than dealing with the issue.

just my .02

edited to correct some of my terrible spelling mistakes

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Is there any particular reason you have removed you profile information from here and other web sites? Going stealth doesn’t help your credibility.

Sparky



Yes she is bad mouthing my name for something that isn't true, why wouldn't I change it?












~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Well, where is Kevin?



Seems he has posted here. But I'll be honest, if you had started a thread about me and started bashing me... I doubt I'd respond to you. Especially when some of the other posters are talking about a lynch mob.

But lets flip the situation.... Lets say you sold the canopy to him. Then 5 weeks later he calls to tell you it is messed up and starts a thread on here bashing him.

And after 5 weeks you already used that money to buy a new canopy. Would you be in a hurry to try and defend yourself against an online lynch mob?

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Fraud is fraud and personally knowing that I had nothing to do with the condition of this canopy is good enough reason to persue by any means to get a refund



And you should be smart enough to know that after 5 weeks your position is nowhere as strong as if you had brought it up in 5 hours.

No one is saying that you should not try.... Just that after waiting 5 weeks your position is weaker than if you had acted faster. If you had posted "I took it home and looked at it and saw a weird discoloration and I called him".... Well, this whole issue might have been avoided because he might have then agreed to refund your money. And if he didn't, then it would be EASY to prove you had nothing to do with the damage.

As a final note to you on this topic..... Just because we are all "brothers and sisters" in the sky.... Does not mean that there are no crooks. People get all romantic thinking "a skydiver would never do that to another skydiver".... But that is just romantic bull shit. Brothers murder each other and skydiving is an activity that draws all types of people into it. But just like any other activity, you can't just go trusting everyone just because you think you share something "special"..... A felon can a drug addict can learn to jump out of a plane just as easily as Mother Superior.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Well......
There are three possible truths here:

1. You are trying to screw the buyer and knew your canopy had the damage.

2. They are trying to screw you.

3. Your idea of "Good condition" and theirs is not the same.

I'd bet my money on #3. The seller thinks the item is great and wants to get as much as he can, the buyer wants to think they got a good deal. This is a normal reaction and process.

The buyer in this case made a clear mistake by not inspecting the canopy as soon as they got it. You BOTH made a mistake by not using a broker.

So, what are you going to offer to make the buyer happy?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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