eyeinthesky 0 #1 November 19, 2002 I'm new to the sport with only a dozen jumps and still a student, but I was wondering why experienced jumpers often choose to not use an AAD? Especially after reading the fatalities reports, seems 2/3 of them wouldn't be printed there if the jumper had a functional AAD in place and turned on. When I buy my first rig, it will definately have one!hey, i was stupid before stupid was cool! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #2 November 19, 2002 Oh this is going to fan some flames. I personally use one, but I'm also pretty new to the sport as well. But you'll hear that some people: 1) can't afford them. 2) would rather spend the money jumping and thus feel more current. And I'm sure you'll hear other responses coming up ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #3 November 19, 2002 Generally, people who don't have AAD's are comfortable with the amount of risk they are taking by not having one. Before you make your final decision, I'd suggest also learning about the ways having an AAD can actually increase some risks. Do a search on the words AAD and/or Cypres in Gear and Rigging and/or TalkBack. This is a subject that provokes heated debate and it has been debated here quite a few times. QuoteEspecially after reading the fatalities reports, seems 2/3 of them wouldn't be printed there if the jumper had a functional AAD in place and turned on. You must be reading some old fatality reports. Seems to me that most of the jumpers dying nowadays are doing so under open (i.e. outside the container) canopies. Not much a Cypres can do for someone who misjudges their final turn... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 November 19, 2002 This has been discussed to no end more then a few times here. Do a quick search and you'll find a handful of threads that discuss this. Infact there was a thread with almost this exact title a while back. On the other hand, I don't have one *yet* merely due to finaces. I'm a broke-ass college student who has to work his ass off each weekend at the DZ so to pay for jumps and who has gone into debt (maxing 2 credit cards) just to buy gear. Once I get one of those CC's paid off, then I'll buy a Cypres.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #5 November 19, 2002 Some people don't trust them as far as that can throw them (and in some cases I agree). ADD's can, do and will fail on you at any time. you might be in freefall at 8000 feet and POP... it fires. You can be sitting on the ground with the rig near you and it can fire, both of which have happened already and are documnented. Or you could be in a canopy formation and it fires and greatly increases the possibility of death. They have thier purpose, but there are times when having an ADD increases the risk of death more then not having one does. Its a personal decision and lets please avoid a big flame war on this one.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #6 November 19, 2002 I dont think this is generating into a flame war.... we're adults, we can discuss things!These are the main reasons some people dont jumps with them: - Dont trust them - They may trust them, but still would rather not add another level of complexity to their rigs (risk management) - Would rather not have one for philosophical reasons (pull or die) - Too expensive - not felt as entirely compatible with their discipline (swoop, CReW) Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sonic 0 #7 November 19, 2002 I'd like one, I just can't afford it (hence PCSS number like Dave), and I'm comfortable jumping without one. When I start getting good at freeflying, I will try and get one then, but most of my jumps are solo at the mo. Also, there's only one person at our dz who can pack reserves, and he can't pack CyPReS's or Astra's, so it's a pain for anybody who has one to get a repack.----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #8 November 19, 2002 >Also, there's only one person at our dz who can pack reserves >, and he can't pack CyPReS's or Astra's, so it's a pain for >anybody who has one to get a repack. Can't as in "isn't allowed to" or "isn't able to"? Since it's really no more complex to pack a reserve with a cypres, I'm assuming it's the regulations there that are the problem? - Hahaa! I will lay the seeds for an all out flamewar with the next sentence, but I feel like have to do it anyway: Quote When I start getting good at freeflying, I will try and get one then, but most of my jumps are solo at the mo. What's that? You're going to get a Cypres only when you start doing jumps that you're not comfortable doing without one? Don't you think you should reconsider doing such jumps altogether? Erno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sonic 0 #9 November 19, 2002 Can't as in BPA says he can't cos he hasn't done the courses etc etc. I'm more than happy jumping with other people, just in the FF environment you can hit people quicker I feel.----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #10 November 19, 2002 I think most of the reasons are well articulated above. I will add that similar reasoning in some cases is related to why some people don't wear seat belts. They focus on the stastically smaller case that it will harm them compared to the larger probability it will save them. Also is the issue of vaccinating a million people for a disease. 5 of them will die from the vaccination. A thousand will live because they got vaccinated. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #11 November 19, 2002 My first 3 rigs had an ADD. I got rid of both Cypres units and just kept my ASTRA. I am worried about Cypres activation under canopy and like the ASTRA because I can easily turn it off when I'm under canopy."Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 November 19, 2002 You do realize that you'd have to load a canopy at about 3.1:1 and aggressively hook to reach the speeds needed to fire a Cypres, right?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #13 November 19, 2002 I bought my rig with a Cypress with the intention to never "remember" it's there. To me it's just like a seat belt in a car - a safety precaution. I turn it on when I get to the DZ but promptly "forget" about it after it's turned on. I make sure that I'm aware of my altitude at all times so that I never rely on the Cypress to save my butt. Hopefully, I never have it mis-fire but it's nice to have "just in case."Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #14 November 19, 2002 I'm also new to the sport and still a student, and I have an opinion about that. AAD in my opinion are necessary, as a backup, yes they might fail but also MIGHT SAVE YOUR LIFE, regarding affordability, if you're serious about the sport you should put some money away for things like this.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #15 November 19, 2002 A new cypres cost about $1100 plus new batteries every 2 years $80, required by mfg, plus every 4 year a service check, required by mfg, (costs more money than batteries) and the unit is only guaranteed by the manufacturer for 12 years. I think the dollars work out such that over the life of one unit you've paid for a second unit in batteries and service and then you have to buy another new cypres. The only thing a cypres is good for is if you are unconscious, or physically unable to pull handles, when you pass thru 1000' falling faster than 78mph it will cut the reserve loop which we hope activates the reserve. If it fires because you were not altitude aware... consider that as using up one of your nine lives. I have a cypres in each of my rigs. Having a main parachute is safety gear. Having a reserve regularly inspected and packed is safety. Having an AAD is safety gear. I think of it as all part of the cost of skydiving. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sonic 0 #16 November 19, 2002 Quotewhen you pass thru 1000' 750' isn't it?----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #17 November 19, 2002 Depends on body position. Back to earth and its about 1000 feet, belly to earth is 750 and tumbling is any where around there. Maybe higher... maybe lower.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #18 November 19, 2002 QuoteAAD in my opinion are necessary, as a backup, yes they might fail but also MIGHT SAVE YOUR LIFE, regarding affordability, if you're serious about the sport you should put some money away for things like this. Did you know that having an AAD on your rig MIGHT KILL YOU? Have you considered all the ways you can die in this sport? There's only a couple in which an AAD can help you. A Cypres isn't going to do shit for someone who hooks in it. It won't help you if the plane crashes. It won't help you if you're involved in a canopy collision on final. It won't help you if you have a main malfunction and don't cut it away. If everyone should have a Cypres, then why shouldn't everyone have to fly lightly wingloaded, docile main canopies? By going smaller jumpers are increasing their risk of injury or death... just like those who choose to not have an AAD (for whatever reason) are doing. It's kinda funny how certain people will say you must have a Cypres to be safe but fly main canopies that are far smaller than the jumper has the ability to handle in a bad situation. imho, you're far more likely to see a bad situation under your main than you are to need that AAD to save your life. I jumped 12 years without one. Right now, on my current rig, I choose to have one. It's a personal choice. I knew the risks I was taking when I was jumping without one. I've lost two friends who might still be here had they had a Cypres. They had valid reasons for not having one and while I may wish they had, I know that both of them knew and accepted the risks they were taking. I know the risks I'm taking by having an AAD on my rig now. I've seen two canopy out situations that would not have occured had the jumper not had an AAD. I've weighed the risks, considered how I skydive now and how I plan to skydive in the future and I chose to get one. That doesn't mean that every jumper should have one. As far as AAD's are concerned, I think that every jumper should do their research and make their own decision and allow others to do the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #19 November 19, 2002 I'll point you to my post from yesterday about the increasing usage of AAD's and the increasing deaths under a good canopy. Risk mitigation factors are important in skydiving, some people just move the risk from a no pull to a low turn. Link Also one interesting thing about AAD's is only a small fraction are knocked out fires, most are simple loss of altitude awareness or improper emergency responces.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #20 November 19, 2002 You are right, there are many possibilities, but having that extra backup is always welcome, especially if you for some reason you get knocked out and you are unable to pull. Personal preference, you are correct, I was just sharing my point of view.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
R00tj00se 0 #21 November 19, 2002 QuoteA Cypres isn't going to do shit for someone who hooks in it. Neither will a reserve and yet the person is still wearing one in case they need a reserve in a different situation. QuoteIt won't help you if the plane crashes. Neither will an RSL but the person may still be wearing one in case they have a situation which requires one. etc, etc... OK, I'm being slightly sarcastic but I didn't like your first paragraph. It take us slightly off topic - we're talking about AAD's, not all the other ways you can die. Quoteimho, you're far more likely to see a bad situation under your main than you are to need that AAD to save your life. Agreed. But if I'm ever passing through 750ft with nothing out I certainly won't be thinking about how much value for money that canopy control class was. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #22 November 19, 2002 I have a Cypress in my rigs. I bought my first Cypress 2 years ago. I have been jumping for 15 years. I have had two AAD misfires in my career. The first happened when I switched my AAD to "Off" under canopy at ~3,000ft. The second happened acting as a student during a rating course at ~1,800ft. Both resulted in two-canopy scenarios. I downplaned (intentionally) both times, and chopped the main and landed the reserves. I have no good reason, in spite of these scenarios, to NOT be AAD equipped sooner. I teach students - and take my teaching very seriously. I am a teacher by nature. Telling students they need to have an AAD made me feel hypocritical. I finally listened to my own advice and spent the $865 for a new Cypress (yes, that includes installation and a reserve repack at Blue Sky Adventures). I now consider it part of my rigs. I put my gear together - main, reserve, Cypress, hook knife - all part of my skydiving rig. I just wish they'd make a waterproof one! The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #23 November 19, 2002 >I just wish they'd make a waterproof one! They do... Call SSK up and ask for the option, or actually run up to SSK and have them add it on to your Cypres in a few hours.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mattias148 0 #24 November 19, 2002 Ditto on the waterproofing part.... "Pull low, pack fast or boink your riggers girlfriend. 3 good ways to find trouble." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sonic 0 #25 November 19, 2002 Click here For the .pdf thingy on it----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
