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diablopilot

Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea.

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Good post, JP.

I just downsized from a Velo 111 to a Velo 103. I must admit that at 51-years old I was considering a move in the other direction.

I won't pull punches. I like to swoop. I don't knock out 720's like my swoop comp kid, or even 540's, but I do typically make 180-270 degree turns to final down the beer line.

For the record I think it's important to understand the risks from both sides of the coin....

On one side, I took more than 20 years, 5,000+ jumps, and 6 high performance canopy changes to get where I am today in canopy choice at 2.1:1. I credit my conservative progression to the fact that I have never come close to a biff, let alone an injury.

On the other side, I recognize that my injury or death is always one jump away. Whether because I fuck up or because I smack a chunk of turbulent air while in a steep dive at 200 feet, there is always the possibility that I may put a dent in the ground on any skydive.

JP, you have my ear. Up-size? Maybe, but let's also talk about set-ups. It doesn't do us any good to increase square footage if it will only result in radical performance set-ups closer to the ground to accommodate hot swoops.

Much respect for opening the dialog.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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I went from a 135 Stiletto to a 150 Stiletto 10 years ago. It's loaded 1.3 and I don't mind no wind days.

I hope to jump even longer than Twardo. :P

I've been on my 135 Stiletto for 6 years and 800 jumps, no plan on moving smaller. But if i change canopies (no time soon) i might get off the Stiletto.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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here is what's hard, my friend...
the Ground. :S

the ground is HARD and sometimes even Water is hard.:o:|.. but many times, the hardEST thing ( or things ) may be the HEADS of those who can become possessed with..... "the need for speed".... [:/]:|[:/]

safety first , and what the hell !! safety second too...!

jt



Very true. I went from jumping Sabre 2 rental gear, to a Sabre 1 of my own. It is really surprising how much difference in flight characteristics there are. The 1 turns very slowly in comparison. But I'll stick with 170's loaded at just over 1:1.

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setting the example is the best way I know how to use that experience I have to slow things down. .


My hat is off to you, sir.
On behalf of the youngsters out here, your concern is appreciated.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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W I was looking at his rig and mentioned that it would never fit my canopy. He said, "well, someday you too will be able to use this size rig", indicating that maybe I was new to the sport. My reply; "I don't want to!". He seemed a little stunned.



See one of the things we're fighting against with downsizing?
Even the manufacturers are telling people that downsizing is what they will be doing without having any knowledge of jumpers' skills, experience or abilities.

It's almost like it's a requirement or something to fly a hot rod.

Young jumpers can get in trouble all by themselves without others trying to speed up the process.
[:/]
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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"Gone from Velo 84 to pulse 150 .... Will still jump the Velo but only when it suits"

Isn't this in some ways more dangerous than just continuing to jump the velo? Depending on your jump numbers etc, you will become less current on the smaller canopy, and less familiar with its characteristics. I understand that currency is almost as significant as jump numbers in this sport? [usual newbie disclaimer etc]

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Well, I didn't upsize, I just didn't downsize.



This. Well, I went from a 230 7-cell to a 210 9-cell, but haven't budged since (and have no plans to). Reserves have always been 218s, and I just put together a 2nd rig with exactly the same 210/218 configuration. I'm happy where I am and have no plans to change.


--------------------------------------------------------------
I am in this camp. Been jumping my Spectre 170 for a loooooong time and have no plans to downsize.

edited to add:I am loading it just under 1.3:1
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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I do. I'm tired of this go fast without consideration or training making the environment I play in more dangerous. I'm now more fearful of the parachute decent than the freefall or deployment.

I put my money where my mouth is this year. Went up in size, 88 to a 120, and selected a type that lets me float more so to place my self in the safest airspace for landing.



I am getting ready to go back up above 100 sq ft mark myself

D
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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I do. I'm tired of this go fast without consideration or training making the environment I play in more dangerous. I'm now more fearful of the parachute decent than the freefall or deployment.

I put my money where my mouth is this year. Went up in size, 88 to a 120, and selected a type that lets me float more so to place my self in the safest airspace for landing.



I already did.. the new rig has a canopy I can live with.

I took off the last few years due to a shoulder dislocation injury that has not healedsince it was torn out of its socket on a jump in 2008 thathas knocked me out of the sky.
There is no way in hell I wanted to get back tosky jumping on a canopy loaded at 1.9:1 when I jump again later this year.[:/]

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Even the manufacturers are telling people that downsizing is what they will be doing...

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Not ALL of 'em. ;)

I was jumping with Ted Strong a while back, he saw my 190 was getting ragged out so he sent me a 210 to demo...with a note, lands softer, opens better, just as fast.

He was right, it does what I want it to do. B|











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Hi Mr T

I had a simalar experience with John Lebanc from PD a long time ago. I was jumpimg a sabre (one) 170 and I asked him about possibly down sizeing to a 150.

John's response was why?

Of Course he was right on. Why? Becuse I'm a short person and wanted a smaller canopy to fit into smaller container.

All I needed to do was Lose the pounds :S to maintain the same w/L.;)

The sales rep that made the remark about down sizeing in the future is part of the the current fad and wants to continue to sell new gear (smaller)to the same people.

R

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new AFF jumper here. can somebody explain to me what the advantages of a larger canopy are? If you are careful with a smaller canopy, how is it more dangerous?

wouldn't a larger canopy actually be more affected by wind gusts due to the larger relative size compared to the weight of the skydiver?

also, if a smaller canopy is quicker to steer, is it not more capable to save you in situations where you need to avoid canopy collisions, or when you are having trouble finding a place to land.

Not trying to go against the conventional wisdom here, I just want to be as safe as possible in this sport... so I like to understand the reasoning behind everything I'm taught.

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Took me eight years to downsize to a CF2 129, loaded at about 1.6
I do not intend to downsize any further. As I do a lot of tandems now it's always sort of "wow" when I'm under my little toy.
Only do 180's if the landing area is free (means when I'm last or something), took me couple canopy classes to learn how to do it hm... not too dangerously. ("Safe" and "Hook" don't go well with each other, huh?)
A well-planned 90 will usually do or I just frontriser it for a nice turf surf.
The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

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new AFF jumper here. can somebody explain to me what the advantages of a larger canopy are? If you are careful with a smaller canopy, how is it more dangerous?

wouldn't a larger canopy actually be more affected by wind gusts due to the larger relative size compared to the weight of the skydiver?

also, if a smaller canopy is quicker to steer, is it not more capable to save you in situations where you need to avoid canopy collisions, or when you are having trouble finding a place to land.

Not trying to go against the conventional wisdom here, I just want to be as safe as possible in this sport... so I like the understand the reasoning behind everything I'm taught.



Larger canopies give you a much, much greater margin of error. Flare a little high or a little low? On a large lightly loaded canopy you will be OK if you PLF or maybe you will sprain your ankle. Small highly loaded canopy--tib-fib and welcome to the titanium club.

Larger canopies are easier to land accurately, so that off landing into somebody's back yard is a lot more likely to have a positive ending.

One advantage of small canopies are that they are able to penetrate more in winds and may be less susceptible to turbulence. Jumping in higher and more turbulent winds is not an unmitigated good, however, it brings problems of its own.

The faster turning speed is true, however it is counterbalanced by the fact that everything happens much, much faster on a smaller canopy--so, yes, you can turn quicker but you have to turn much quicker to avoid a canopy collision because you are closing with the other canopy (or obstacle) at a much higher rate of speed.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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new AFF jumper here. can somebody explain to me what the advantages of a larger canopy are? If you are careful with a smaller canopy, how is it more dangerous?

wouldn't a larger canopy actually be more affected by wind gusts due to the larger relative size compared to the weight of the skydiver?

also, if a smaller canopy is quicker to steer, is it not more capable to save you in situations where you need to avoid canopy collisions, or when you are having trouble finding a place to land.

Not trying to go against the conventional wisdom here, I just want to be as safe as possible in this sport... so I like the understand the reasoning behind everything I'm taught.



Good question, you bring up a couple of valuable points to consider.

Keep in mind that a larger canopy gives you more time in most cases to see a situation developing and take the appropriate action to avoid it. It also is considerably more forgiving should you not make the right decision.

I'm an 'old school' jumper, I tend to believe one should be able to land their canopy anywhere, at any time, under any circumstances they may find themselves in.

It's much harder to do that on a small fast canopy, that detracts from the safety margin plain & simple.

There were very few canopy collisions 'back in the day' because everyone was on big ole barges and you had slower closing speeds, plenty of time to react & avoid.

If ya missed a landing and hit a barn ya dusted off and bought beer, now it's an ambulance ride...at least!

'These days' though another jumper may be coming at me faster than days gone by, with me being on a slower canopy there is still more margin than if we both were in hyper-drive.

In this sport a fraction of a second can make a big difference, I try to give myself every advantage possible.

I'm just an old frail guy that's never been injured Skydiving, and wants to keep it that way. B|

I have nothing against a fast canopy in the right hands, but make no mistake in the 'wrong' hands they are considerably more dangerous than a 'slow' canopy to just about everyone in the sky. ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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One advantage of small canopies are that they are able to penetrate more in winds and may be less susceptible to turbulence.

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I disagree about the turbulence thing, ever take a small canopy into a stadium? ;)











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I jump a L160 at ~1.4 or a L176 at ~1.3 for CREW, but when I put on my FS-cap, I still jump a Storm 190 at ~1.1.
No need for a smaller canopy / higher WL then.

Additionally, I'm saving up to get myself a nice Optimum 176 Reserve instead of the PD160R I'm currently (not) jumping. :)

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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wouldn't a larger canopy actually be more affected by wind gusts due to the larger relative size compared to the weight of the skydiver?



Last Saturday, the winds were on the strong side and somewhat variable, with some gusts as high as 30. There were quite a few people jumping, but I knew from past experience that I get tossed around like a ragdoll on my 1:1 ratio on my 170, so I sat out. It was a bummer too because I was at the Expo and my friend came out to do a tandem and I was hoping to chase it.

Did I really miss out on much? I don't think so; jumping in variable winds isn't all that great and I live in Florida, so I can most likely jump the next day (which I did). On one of the next day jumps, my group opened on a really long spot. I'd been jumping at that airport for 11 years and had never been in that area! Did I worry about getting back? Nah, not really, because I knew I could hold myself in brakes and glide for a looong time with my big 'ol canopy. B| My arms did hurt quite a bit the next day though!
She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

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One advantage of small canopies are that they are able to penetrate more in winds and may be less susceptible to turbulence.

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I disagree about the turbulence thing, ever take a small canopy into a stadium? ;)



No, I haven't. I jump a 210 and have relatively low jump numbers. I'ver heard the turbulence thing a lot, though. I choose the phrase "may be" intentionally because I am not fully convinced one way or another. Particular models also seem to come into play.

FWIW, I am on my first canopy and am in no hurry to downsize simply because I don't see much gain to it.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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