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Amyr

CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENED

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freeflying a non-freefly rig it kinda shows a lack of understanding of what can go wrong and failing to plan for it.



If i ever go to another dropzone and have to rent equipment do they tell you this is a non free fly friendly rig? Or am i supposed to be able just by looking at it able to determine what type of rig this is?



If you don't know, ask. Some places have nice, new, modern rental gear that is fully freefly friendly. Other places...
Not so much.

But in any case, the DZ won't want you to get hurt or damage their gear, so they should be happy to tell you if it's not.

Like others have said, the best way to learn this stuff is at the DZ, with the gear right in front of you. It makes a lot more sense that way. Some of this stuff would take 3 pages to explain, but three words with the gear right there to show you.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Alright>> SO i state this as a question>>
A freefly friendly rig is designed to withstand unusual or unstable deployments?
If this is true? How so> Once again i am new in asking.



As someone who has personal experience with freeflying a not-quite-freefly-friendly rig (and what can go wrong ;)) I'll take a stab at this.

Since freeflying generally means a body position other than belly-to-earth and faster than normal freefall speeds (150+ mph), a freefly-friendly rig must meet at least the following criteria:

1. It must provide complete protection of the bridle, such that no part of the bridle is exposed to the relative wind regardless of the jumper's orientation. This helps to prevent a horseshoe/premature deployment.

2. The riser covers and the main/reserve pin covers must also be secure regardless of jumper orientation and speed.

3. The rig needs to fit well. You don't want it moving around on you while you're flying head-down, in a sit, etc. Especially for sitflying, you want some mechanism to keep the leg straps where they belong. If you search for "fall out of a rig" you'll turn up links that explain the issue and provide some ideas for how you might choose address it. Some folks think that the bungee strap is adequate, others have fashioned various types of "butt straps". Talk to your rigger and/or instructors.

It goes without saying that when freeflying you need to pay extra attention to the basics: make sure all straps are correctly routed and properly adjusted, check your closing loop, the condition of your BOC spandex and any velcro, etc.



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A freefly friendly rig is going to slow the deployment regardless of body position?



No. Freefly-friendly just means that the rig should stay closed and in position until you throw that PC. If for whatever reason you end up with a deployment at 150+mph, you can still break stuff, including yourself. BTDT, got the tshirt.


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So a student rig is made to withstand all kinds of body position deployment?



Not sure what you're asking here. If the question is "can I freefly in a student/rental rig?", the answer is to talk to your instructors, who know what rigs are used at your DZ and whether or not they are suitable for freeflying.


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Rigs have deployment speeds?



Rigs AND canopies are tested to certain speed/weight combinations. For example, my Wings manual says 254lbs/150kts. If you exceed those limits, you can damage the canopy, the rig, or yourself. Once you've read the owner's manual for your rig and canopies (usually available online) your rigger will likely be happy to answer any additional questions that you have.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--Mario Andretti

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Hi A

I think wwe need more info, to avoid the shit happens conclusion.

Almost "back in the day" folks used to say borrowed gear kills, jump your own pack job etc. These days rental gear can be a major source of cash flow for a DZ.

IMO the canopy manufacturer would have to perform a pull test on the canopy material to determine if the rental canopy wasn't ragged out and ready to lfail.

Who knows who packed the rig? If the slider was incorrectly stowed that could have also added stress to a already weakened canopy.

IMO nothing wrong with used gear or rental gear if maintained properly.

Be well
One Jump Wonder

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lease, step away from the internets, and go talk to instructors at your DZ. You have so many gaps in your understanding on how gear works that, for someone with 40 jumps, I'm a bit scared.



Will do thank you for all your patience. I am at 40 jumps and not a A license I would be scared to fly with me too! Lets just say Natural talent and my name have not been used in the same sentence.

I think a lot of jumpers with 100 of jumps take their education of skydiving for granted as common knowledge .
I understand that the pilot chute starts the deployment process BUT until now did not know it was actually the lines not the pilot chute that I was feeling that caused the initial drag and decrease of speed before the chute starts opening so thank you

And>Remster a little uneducated 40 year old girl scares you to jump with. WELL all i have to say to that is BOO!

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GAPS THE MOTHER FUCKERS PARACHUTE RIPS IN HALF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry we did not learn that in AFF!

Thinking back to all the pictures of parachute malfunctions

Not one picture was of one over my head split in two

Its there!
Its in 2 squares
But i sure can not fly it

Cut away and pull the reserve!

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I think what Remster is trying to point out is your misunderstanding of the basic function of a pilot chute in inexcusable for someone with 40 jumps. It isn't necessarily your fault - you may have had really crappy instructors, but someone, somewhere dropped the ball and should be considering bowling shoes.
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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Sorry did not know that when someone uses caps to point out a sentence break that it was read as someone yelling.

Thank you all for your help

will work on getting a better education of skydiving equipment and knowledge of the sport.

Will work on sentence structure and grammar context as well as spelling and run on sentences.

I should have waited to ask someone at my dropzone your right.

But I asked educated skydivers on this sight. Will not happen again>>> sticks up middle finger!

My instructors are not the cause of my gap in the use of skydiving equipment ! I thought the pilot chute had to purposes to start deployment and to slow deployment .

Sticks out both hands gives middle fingers on both hands. Gee what the fuck moons everyone too!

Will not be asking any more questions!

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>:( to:)
When i say I will not post anymore questions ever again my forever is 5 minutes. I am not going to melt. My shit floats. I was trying really hard not to come across as some newbie know it all. Who does not listen to advice.

Just cause I give you the finger does not mean I am not listening!

Also direct approach works better for me no need to tone it down. My ego is about the size of most of your ****.
:)

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I think your hot when you give the middle finger like that!



I think she's cuter when she moons us.

Ya know...
(_!_)

Amyr -
Please don't stop asking questions. That's how you learn. The problem is that there is stuff that's really hard to explain on these boards. And until you figure out who knows their shit and who is full of it, taking any advice or information from here has it's hazards.
But please don't keep your mouth shut for fear of getting kidded for not knowing.
Admitting you don't know and asking about stuff is the only way to learn.
Some places don't cover the technical stuff. like how stuff works and what does what, as well as they should. I'm a detail nerd, and interested in how stuff is put together and operates. So I made a point of understanding my gear as thoroghly as I could as soon as possible. I asked a lot of questions, did some research and learned stuff.

Having the canopy split in half isn't usually covered in the malfunction section because it's a pretty self-evident situation. You have the checklist correct.
Is it -
There?
Square?
Controllable?

It's pretty obvious that 2 seperate square sections aren't landable. It also is a pretty unusual malfunction.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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>:( to:)
When i say I will not post anymore questions ever again my forever is 5 minutes. I am not going to melt. My shit floats. I was trying really hard not to come across as some newbie know it all. Who does not listen to advice.

Just cause I give you the finger does not mean I am not listening!

Also direct approach works better for me no need to tone it down. My ego is about the size of most of your ****.
:)



we learn through all experiences, online and in person with our instructors. I think the key is utilizing all sources, that way we never bank on one suggestion! Now lets get to that moon! More importantly, now lets see that moon you talk about!!

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Alright. Here's a lesson that all new lady jumpers need to know about:

If you're gonna moon somebody online, pics are required.

'Nuff said.
;)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Alright. Here's a lesson that all new lady jumpers need to know about:

If you're gonna moon somebody online, pics are required.

'Nuff said.
;)

tr

See! There is great advice offered online! If Pops says so...it's in stone.

In all honesty, lets learn alot, make few mistakes and have fun. Nothing more is of importance..

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OK I am new so if it is obvious by looking why this happened please just tell me anyway



Maybe not obvious at first, but think about it for a second.

There are two problems here, the one is freeflying with a non-freefly friendly rig, and the other is the unintentional deployment.

The first problem is easy to understand, the non-freefly freindly rig isn't designed to stay shut for anything but flying on your belly. In that orientation, the rig is 'hidden' from the wind by your body, and does not recieve any direct, high speed wind blast. So the flaps and covers don't have to be too tight or secure to stay put.

Enter freeflying, now the rig does recieve direct, high speed wind blast, and needs to be designed to stay shut under those circumstances. Just about every rig built in the last 10 to 12 years is freefly friendly, but it's not uncommon to find older rigs still being jumped and still used as student gear.

Side note - using old rigs as student gear for AFF is a huge mistake. Static line is one thing, there's no freefall and the 'friendly-ness' of the rig is unimportant. However, AFF is another story, and it's not unheard of for a student to roll on the back and fall that way for several thousand feet, which is alot like freeflying, so they should have a rig that will stay shut.

Back to the story, and the unintentional deployment.

Rigs and canopies are designed around being opened at belly flying speeds, and with the jumper facing the relative wind with level shoulders. Change any one of those, and the opneing will not be 'as designed'. It might be harder, it might spin into line twists, or it might tear in half. Who knows.

Anywho, look at the video and note that you can see the jumpers hands and feet while he's flying on his back. Stand up right now, and position yourself so a camera on your head could film your hands and feet at the same time, and now picture the jumper falling back-first in that position. You can imagine that he might be going faster than square and level on his belly.

Remember that surface area = speed. That's why you speed up when you arch harder, you're presenting less surface area to the wind. So think about the amount of surafce area you present on your belly (most of your body, relatively flat), and compare that to the amount of surafce area this jumper would have been presenting in his 'back fly' position. He was going somewhat faster than normal.

The other factor was the 'shoudlers level' aspect of a good opening, and this jumpers shoulders were not level, and not facing the right direction for a deployment. Normally, the canopy goes straight up over you back, and opens. In this case, the canopy had to go from the jumpers back, around the side, and then up to open (you can see this in the video). At this point, the canopy is anything but straight, and trying to open.

So combine the higher airspeed, and asymetrical opening, and that's how the canopy tore in half. I can't say for sure, but 9 times out of 10, if the container is so old that it's not freefly friendly, the canopy in it is also going to be old as dirt, and maybe not all that 'strong', so that might have contributed to the tear as well.

On to the camera. it's not a direct cause of the tear, but it's a contributing factor. The jumper in question was trying to flim his buddy from below, so this might not have happened without a camera. Of course, you can backfly without a camera as well, so maybe it would have happened anyway.

The DZO is partially to blame for allowing to non-licensed jumpers to jump together, with both of them wearing cameras. That's an awful lot of 'variables' for one jump, and not something that should have been permitted.

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One other thing, using all caps in internet land is the equivialant of shouting. I've seen at least two of your thread titles you've typed in all caps, and you should stop. If you feel that your threads are important, by all means use caps on the first letter of every word, as in a proper noun, but there's no need to 'shout them out' with all caps.

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HI AMYR

DONT SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS:)
BUT DON"T YOU EVER EVER USE ALL CAPS IN YOUR SUBJECT TITLE AGAIN OR ELSE>:( ONCE IS BAD ENOUGH TWICE IS EVEN WORSE>:(>:(

BUT THE THIRD TIME COULD BE A CHARM.>:(>:(>:(

BULLIES AND DZ.COM :o

Could be worse some of them are/were married and had kids. Hopefully your not one of them )ex Wife/kids

FWIW the only person you have to listen to on Dizzy if a mod.;)

Caps locked :oshit happens:)

One Jump Wonder

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Yeah caps Going to think about that when i jump today.
You know I think you found my shit button thought i had that one hid well. So i guess I found many of>>> YOUR'S<<< HAHA<< as well

I am amazed that the evolution through out the years of skydiving that the rigs where ever designed in such a manner that allowed for nothing more then falling belly to earth.

It is as if falling in any other manner is something new and radical.

Glad for the improvements.

Glad I was not the one that had to make 1000 of jumps to figure out a better way to design containers for safety.

Thankful for those that did.

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On a side note titles to all books and newspapers are all in caps. I guess my use of caps goes back to a love of reading.

You know those big square things you put on your shelf to impress your friends open them up they got words in them.

Blue Skies off to the Dropzone!

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