Skydiving bullies. Put up your hand.

[obelixtim 100]

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For all the self-righteous horseshit on here, there is a wealth of experience in the real world that can be tapped without the self-aggrandizing, counter-productive aggression found here. It's virtual masturbation and it's bullshit.

It's one thing to offer firm, blunt advice. It's quite another to verbally beat the shit out of someone.

And apparently now it's cool to be a bully.

Are you going to come up with anything positive in the way of suggestions, or are you just going to sit on the sidelines taking sly potshots at people who you disagree with?...

Take a look in the mirror when you start name calling.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[craigbey 0]

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Take a look in the mirror when you start name calling.

What does an anonymous poster with a blank profile see when they look in the mirror?

[billvon 2,396]

Yep. Have been, will be again. It's a lousy first approach but often it's the only reasonable final solution. I've been called names, told to go fuck myself etc. when I told someone they couldn't jump their canopy at our DZ.

On the plus side I can think of two people who are still alive partly because of me being a "bully." One will never walk normally again, but he's alive.

[billvon 2,396]

>It's one thing to offer firm, blunt advice. It's quite another to verbally
>beat the shit out of someone.

Agreed. Both have their place - and it's important to know when to use each method.

[joephus 0]

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Once again, I'm no bully, on the internet or in real life. I would say anthing I would type right to someones face if I had the chance, and I would defend my words and actions before a jury of my peers with 100% confidence that I was onyl saying what needed to be said.

I think you might be too close to the trees to see the forest in this case and might not be looking at from a truly objective view point, Dave. You probably do say the same things in the real world, but I bet they have a very different tone and come across very differently when you are face to face with someone. Also, judging by some of the posts I've seen around here, and I mean in general not just you, nobody would want anything to do with someone who behaved like that in the real world. People wouldn't want to work with them, learn from them, let alone skydive with them. I seriously doubt that is the case for you in the real world Dave. I'm willingly to bet in the real world you are a pretty cool guy that's great to hang out with and doesn't come across as being a dick to people.

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You want to jump where I jump? Great, now you're a part of the machine. and if you're fucking it up, be ready to hear about it and correct the problem.

And that is completely the way it should be. When I fuck up, which I have plenty, I would expect nothing less and have received nothing less. The only exception being that my mentors didn't resort to name calling, personal attacks and basically what amounts to verbal abuse to do it. And, I imagine in the real world, you and everyone else here generally don't either.

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Don't fool yourself into writing this off as bullying. I explained this three other places already, but what we have here are reactions to choices and actions a jumper made on their own. Nobody singled the guy out, nobody apporached him and started shoving, he made all of his own choices, and this is the backlash. He fucked up, and fucked up big time, and this is what happens.

And people see the browbeating he got, saw people posting his personal facebook page, making fun of other jumpers looking at their altimeter too much, lambasting him for videos that weren't even of him, and think "Man this site is awful". I seriously think a lot of people here need to step outside themselves for minute and honestly think about the reputation that type of behavior gives this site. Because trust me, it's not a good one in the world outside of this little corner of the internet.

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Are you going to come up with anything positive in the way of suggestions, or are you just going to sit on the sidelines taking sly potshots at people who you disagree with?...

If you read back some of my posts you will see that I have given my suggestions, but for your sake I will summarize them here:

1. A friendly, reasoned approach is the best first option.
2. If that doesn't work then by all means offer firm, blunt advice based on facts.
3. If the problem still persists then it should be up to local authorities (DZO, S&TA) to take action including grounding and/or banning the offending jumper.
4. What I disagree with whole-heatedly is the use of overly aggressive language which alienates the "offender" and offers no explanation other than "because I said so and I have more jumps". This reduces the usefulness of dz.com.

Fair enough?

[obelixtim 100]

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***If you read back some of my posts you will see that I have given my suggestions, but for your sake I will summarize them here:

1. A friendly, reasoned approach is the best first option.
2. If that doesn't work then by all means offer firm, blunt advice based on facts.
3. If the problem still persists then it should be up to local authorities (DZO, S&TA) to take action including grounding and/or banning the offending jumper.

And you think none of us have ever thought of these things?.

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4. What I disagree with whole-heatedly is the use of overly aggressive language which alienates the "offender" and offers no explanation other than "because I said so and I have more jumps". This reduces the usefulness of dz.com.

Well I've yet to see anyone on the other thread say their jump numbers negates all other arguments.

You are just making that one up.

What I do see are people with vast active experience of running DZ's and dealing with the consequences, trying to get the message across that foolishness is not OK ,and asking for people to get active in the effort to make bad canopy choices and inexperience very uncool.

Are you willing to pipe up when you see unsafe behaviour, or are you gonna do nothing, and then after the incident bleat loudly that: "somebody shoulda done something".

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Are you willing to pipe up when you see unsafe behaviour, or are you gonna do nothing, and then after the incident bleat loudly that: "somebody shoulda done something".

Absolutely I'll speak up. But I'll do so through the proper channels - DZO or S&TA.

And I will NOT go posting it on the internet so anyone who feels like it can add another kick in the ribs to the offender.

[obelixtim 100]

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Absolutely I'll speak up. But I'll do so through the proper channels - DZO or S&TA.

And if they are not immediately at your beck and call, and immediate action needs to be taken to prevent an unsafe practise or event?

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And I will NOT go posting it on the internet so anyone who feels like it can add another kick in the ribs to the offender.

Careful!. your halo might slip down and hit you on the head....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[DaVinciflies 0]

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And if they are not immediately at your beck and call, and immediate action needs to be taken to prevent an unsafe practise or event?

That's not a situation I have encountered but if that was genuinely the case then I would address it myself (and have done in the case of misrouted cheststraps etc. But again, not on the internet!!

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Careful!. your halo might slip down and hit you on the head....

Thank you. Very constructive.

[obelixtim 100]

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That's not a situation I have encountered but if that was genuinely the case then I would address it myself (and have done in the case of misrouted cheststraps etc.

Good man. You are starting to get the point.

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Thank you. Very constructive

No problem.

Carry on.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[robinheid 0]

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Have you ever had somebody thank you for the asshole approach? I have.
"Thanks for being the hard-ass. That's what I needed."
All is good.

More than once over the years -- and the interesting thing was, it sometime TOOK years before the "thank you" came because that's how long (and how many more jumps) it took for them to realize that the ***hole intruding on their fun was actually trying to keep them sufficiently ambulatory to have even more fun.

Of course, then there were a couple AI (***hole Intrusion) targets who died before they figured it out.

44

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[joephus 0]

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Is there some way of communicating on the net that everyone can live with that we don't know about?.

Yes there is. It's the same manner you speak to people in public when you are face to face. I know you may think you would say things 100% the exact same way in the real world, and who knows maybe you do. But if people acted the same way in real life as I see some of them act here, the rate at which they would alienate everyone around them would be staggering. Again, like Dave I bet you don't have that problem. I bet you have a ton of friends at your DZ that would have nothing but great things to say about you. Sure you might have folks that you don't get a long with so well, but I'm willing to bet you are not universally shunned at your drop zone.

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Like real life, people will always disagree, and that is what makes life interesting. Is robust discussion and exchange of views impossible?.

Robust conversation in real life doesn't involve insulting people, belittling them, or being a dick in general. Direct communication without pulling punches is possible sans a dickish attitude.

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See, I just don't get this "internet bullies" tag.

Here's what I mean by that.

When a jumper screws up at my DZ, he will get a talking to and if that doesn't work they are done for the day. If it doesn't work after that, they are done at the DZ for the next 30 days. If it doesn't work after that they are done for the next year. There is no yelling, belittling, insulting, or arguing. It's straightforward, upfront and honest conversation about what happened, why it shouldn't happen, what will happen if it continues and that is it. Why should it be any different here on the internet?

I've had this talk before, and it went something like this.

I:"Why did you land over there?"

Me:"I had a long spot and it was the closest, safest area I could land near the DZ."

I:"Ok, that is understandable, but do you understand why we separate traffic over there?"

Me:"So we can keep canopies flying different type of landing patterns and landing at different speed separate?"

I:"Pretty much, but next time though if you find yourself on a long spot, you could maybe pull a little higher to make it back to the student landing area, or if its a really long spot, don't be afraid to ask for a go around."

Me:"Cool! Will do."

I have never in any of my screw ups, had an instructor start calling me an idiot, Jumpy McAwesome, DGIT, belittle me with sarcastic comments of how I believe I have "Mad skillz", or anything remotely similar. These are all things that occur on a regular basis here, from people that don't even know the situation first hand.

Not to speak for the management at my DZ, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if that type of behavior would get an instructor fired.

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As was pointed out, people have got the right of reply, and can defend themselves quite easily if they feel they have a valid argument. Most fail to do so for reasons of their own, but often its because there IS no valid argument to justify their position.

The question is though, why does this have to be an environment that is so confrontational in the first place? Do we really want to be more focused on defending points and "winning" arguments than we are being an excellent resource for the skydiving community?

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In my book, calling someone an idiot for demonstrated, repeated foolish behaviour, in the face of sound advice and warnings, based on previous experiences with similar individuals, is entirely warranted.

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you were at the drop zone, saw someone do something foolish and walked up to them and called them an idiot?

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Personally, most of us on the experienced side of this bridge are nice guys, who collectively have contributed a massive amount of positive to the sport. The characterisation of us as bullies, assholes etc etc, is unfair and over the line in my opinion...

It's not just low timers like me saying this. Highly experienced jumpers out in the real world are saying similar things about what goes on here as well.

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If the mockers don't want to come here, its their loss.

Unfortunately its everyone's loss, not just their's.

[yoink 321]

You're basing your feedback on the way YOU behave so there's an unintentional bias to the way you think communication should be done.

There is no need for confrontation because you seem responsive to earlier, more friendly feedback. Awesome. I wish everyone was like you.


You're asking people to communicate differently based on YOUR experience, but now you put yourself in the shoes of someone else; an experienced jumper.
You've SEEN people crater in. You've had friends killed though the idiocy of others and you've felt the impacts that the deaths have had on your dz. You're sick to death of people dying year after year from the same causes in ways that are entirely avoidable.

Now - you see someone doing something that you KNOW will likely kill them. You approach them and say 'hey dude, can we have a chat? What you just did was really dangerous - here's why'.

The response you get back is 'Don't worry about it. It's cool. I know what I'm doing'.

You bite your lip and move on.

You see the same behaviour again and try again at a later date. 'Hey. Keep flying like that and you're a crater waiting to happen. Try asking x, y or z if you don't believe me...'

The reply is 'You don't know me!' or 'Whatever dude.'


The point is that eventually you have to be more direct. You can't give passive instruction forever.

To do nothing or to continue to try and communicate in a way that is DEMONSTRABLY not working for that person isn't being a decent person or even an effective communicator. It's you not taking every step possible for your own safety and that of people around you.


You say you've been around internet forums for a while - same here. You know as well as I do that inflection and tone don't carry over in a forum setting, so you could say exactly the same thing as is typed, but give a very different message or at least soften the blow slightly. Maybe people who take offense easily need to understand that on forums not everyone is a communications expert and it's less about how things are said, than the message it's giving.



FWIW, I think the thread that sparked this one lost its way when people were posting facebook details and going looking for videos and the like. All the communication right up to that point was fine.

[waveoff5500 0]

just to preface i dont have thousands of jumps and dont pretend to know everything there is to know, but i think anyone with experience can offer help when it comes to something safety related. for example a lower jump jumper ended up not following pull priorities last weekend and kept trying to break off from someone who had lost alt awareness instead of getting to a point where it was too low and just pulling. all ended well but she maintained that she knew is wasnt good but it was distracting having them there not breaking off. i replied to it with "you know whats really distracting?" and she said "what?" and i finished up with "hitting the ground." she then realized that it was more than just a simple thing then and really reflected on it. i think that got the point across better than something to the effect of "what the hell are you thinking?!" etc. but like i said thats just my two cents and im sure the other approach works just fine in some cases.

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[joephus 0]

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There is no need for confrontation because you seem responsive to earlier, more friendly feedback. Awesome. I wish everyone was like you.

I understand what you are saying however, confrontational seems to be the default setting here and while I don't mind this at all, people who aren't used to it, which is a group of people much large than us, do mind it. I get the motivations. While I'm a low timer, I've already seen people crater and it's something I never wish to experience again. I get it, I really do.

However, while I completely understand the motivation, the response is detrimental to this site in general. The only good things I've heard about this site are from people who post on this site and that is a small minority of the skydiving community. Can you honestly say that is a good thing?

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You say you've been around internet forums for a while - same here. You know as well as I do that inflection and tone don't carry over in a forum setting,

You and I know this. But, we are the minority. We make up such a small piece of the community it's like asking the mountain to move for the ant.


***
FWIW, I think the thread that sparked this one lost its way when people were posting facebook details and going looking for videos and the like.

[spootch 0]

Ditto on the DZ, the guys are just wainting for me to fuck up so they can lay into me with whatever jabs or insults they can come up with, and when I do make a mistake they'll ride it into the ground for weeks.


Kinda get the feeling like you were being...... oh whats the word i'm looking for.......bullied?

[obelixtim 100]

Perfectly put.

Thats exactly what people need to understand.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[popsjumper 2]

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...it's less about how things are said, than the message it's giving.

Thanks you for emphasizing my point made earlier.
And thank you for saying it in a touchy-feely sort of way.


I forgot about the typing vs speaking differences.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Ditto on the DZ, the guys are just wainting for me to fuck up so they can lay into me with whatever jabs or insults they can come up with, and when I do make a mistake they'll ride it into the ground for weeks.


Kinda get the feeling like you were being...... oh whats the word i'm looking for.......bullied?

If you can't laugh at yourself, you can't laugh at others.


How does that song go....Woolly Bully?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Bellyflier 0]

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Bullies, Skygods, Ego Titans, Wolves, Delusional Asshole.

Guilty as charged.

Trying to keep people safe on the DZ, by any method, including use of harsh words, that sensitive types can't tolerate because their feelings are hurt.

Am I the only one?.

The problem isn't that people are skydiving bullies around here, it's that they are Internet bullies. I may be a low timer in the skydiving world, but I have been working professionally with Internet services and communities for almost 20 years and what I see around here is all too common in the Internet world. People taking conversational tones, attitudes, and addressing people in manner that if used in the real world, would eventually get them popped in the mouth.

For me, I'm used to it. I've been around this block many times before most people even realized the block existed. I cut my teeth on Internet communities way more vicious than this one so I don't mind sifting through the crap to find the gems. However that is not the case for most people. Most people aren't used to it, and will not put up with the amount of vitriol that can be produced around here. This is why the vast majority of experienced skydivers I know in the real world think this site is a joke. If I mention anything about this site other than something I saw in the classified section, people roll their eyes and go "Oh, that site?" and that's the end of the conversation. The Internet board-warrior attitude that rears it's ugly head around here all to often serves only to increase the noise to signal ratio on this site.

So sure, people can keep thinking they are doing a good thing by being a dick to somebody, but just keep in mind that for every highly experienced person with a wealth of knowledge to share that posts here, there are 10 out in the real world who wouldn't even bother typing the url for this site because of the attitudes you can find here. For every newbie that might get some help here, there are 5 who have been told don't even bother with the people at DZ.com. Unless of course, they are checking the classifieds for equipment.

I think this is a sad state of affairs and truly a shame given the potential resource this site could and should be. But it isn't because some people don't realize you don't have to be an asshole to get people to listen to you.

I was told not to even bother with this place. I was told it was more of a conspiracy forum than anything else. But there is some good people on here, you just have to weed out the dipshits. And there is good info on here, unfortunately you guys just have a bad rep, which can be hard to get back.

[GobbleGobble 0]

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That is the type of behavior that I am saying needs to stop. I've seen things like that happen more than a few times around here.

Thank you, I've said similar things in the past although I highly doubt anything will change.

[yoink 321]

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The only good things I've heard about this site are from people who post on this site and that is a small minority of the skydiving community. Can you honestly say that is a good thing?

Nope. It's a bad thing. But it works the other way too.

It SUCKS to be on the side of trying to give advice that you know will keep people safe, only to have it ignored because of ego, time and time and time again.

I've said before that this place has crushed my will to try and help other skydivers... How it THAT a good thing? I've survived a while doing this. I want to help others do that. but still...
sometimes it's hard...


But for some reason, some of us keep trying. Because for all the bad advice, for all the bullshit, and all the ego, there are occasionally times when you might help someone or keep someone from making a mistake based on bad information. and that's worthwhile. We MAY make a positive difference.
And that bad advice doesn't just come from the boards here - there's bad advice on the DZs. The difference is that here you're openly posting advice for a thousand people to see, dissect and reply to. You're not giving one-on-one advice around a beer, so you'd better be able to justify your advice - something people DON'T often do in the bar... it takes balls, courage and knowledge to do that. I've seen people talk shit about this place because they've been called out and made to feel foolish - you know what? They probably shouldn't have been giving that advice in the first place....


There's also a bias to the questions asked, which necessarily leads to a negative view of the advice given. If (as an example) 95% of all questions asked on this site were 'should I do this dangerous thing', and you only got 5 people replying to each of those posts, then soon the perception is that this place pretty much ONLY gives negative advice. There are a LOT of daft questions asked here... and it's far easier to criticize a bad decision, than to give a useful answer to a good one, leading to a weighting bias.


I guess what I'm saying is that there is information on here that is worth paying attention to, but it's not a place to get every answer you ever wanted.
If you're asking a genuine question, you'll get many (and often conflicting) answers, but at least you'll have more knowledge than you did to start with to make a decision about. If you hang around for a while, you'll learn who you can ignore, and who's worth listening to more.
If you expect this site just to validate everything you think about skydiving, whether you have 10 jumps or 10,000, you're wrong. Society doesn't work that way. It's not for everyone, that's for sure!

[obelixtim 100]

Again, good post. Well said.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[nigel99 143]

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The point that I got from John's post (in the other thread) was that the bullying was derived from the incessant pack mentality... not the mere fact that some harsh words were spoken/written. ... and if that was in fact his point, I for one agree with him.

I agree with your take. I think people here are missing the point of what John said. I have no problem with people being told hard truths and I think that the approach Chuck took with the velo guy was correct.

I don't think I've ever seen Dave 'bully' but he's sure posted some stinging criticisms. Honestly more people should model their online posting behaviour. Far to many up-jumpers on here post without actually reading and so they simply post their standard mantra.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.