chuckakers 370
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Stephen 0
If a DZ requires an AAD and an unfortunate accident happens due to AAD malfunction, doesn't it open the dz to potential liability for requiring these?
This bullshit is destroying the sport. Anyone who keeps up with incident reports will notice that the vast majority of serious accidents involve jumpers who have many jumps, are current, and use the best gear available. Most of these people have AAD's.
If the DZ bans small high performance canopies & outlaws swooping they will avoid the accusation of hypocrisy.
Cheers,
Jon S.
If the DZ bans small high performance canopies & outlaws swooping they will avoid the accusation of hypocrisy.
Cheers,
Jon S.
Here's a thought: We're no longer living in the 80's/90's (when this sport really grew) with cheap fuel costs. The ONLY way this sport is alive today is because of tandems. When there are fatalities due to *any* cause, it potentially reduces the DZ's chances of continuing to put tandems up, which in-turn would kill the DZ.
So any time any of you knock a DZ for any policy they make, well.... Go start your own "Fun-Jumper-Only" DZ like we had in the 80's, have whatever rules you choose, and see how much it costs ya!
So any time any of you knock a DZ for any policy they make, well.... Go start your own "Fun-Jumper-Only" DZ like we had in the 80's, have whatever rules you choose, and see how much it costs ya!
obelixtim 100
QuoteHere's a thought: We're no longer living in the 80's/90's (when this sport really grew) with cheap fuel costs. The ONLY way this sport is alive today is because of tandems. When there are fatalities due to *any* cause, it potentially reduces the DZ's chances of continuing to put tandems up, which in-turn would kill the DZ.
Here's another. Fatalities often result in an increase in business. There is a reason for that.
However, a regular number of fatalities at a single DZ might well kill the business, but maybe they shouldn't be in business anyway, if that is the case....
I'm sure you will come back at me quoting Perris. But that might be one exception....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
cocheese 0
QuoteFYI effective July 1st, 2012 anyone wanting to make a jump at Sky Dive San Marcos must have an AAD equipped rig. No exceptions!
This is awesome. Congratulations Skydive San Marcos.
When I open my DZ, I'm going to ban all jumpers that believe in God.
If jumpers don't like it, they can go somewhere else.
billvon 2,396
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>If a DZ requires an AAD and an unfortunate accident happens due to AAD
>malfunction, doesn't it open the dz to potential liability for requiring these?
Nope, not particularly. The use of AAD's is an industry standard.
>malfunction, doesn't it open the dz to potential liability for requiring these?
Nope, not particularly. The use of AAD's is an industry standard.
QuoteAs for jumpers who aren't responsible enough to learn the limitations and risks associated with their equipment, they are just another fatality report waiting to be written. Maybe we should blame the modern-day instructional process that let's people get away with such ignorance for that one.
Part of the problem here, IMHO, is the same thing we're seeing with open canopy incidents. In today’s skydiving world, you board a plane every 20 minutes, you have someone else packing your 3 rigs, when you land, you’re busy uploading your Go Pro footage, etc. People are progressing in jump #'s at lightning speed, but, not spending the time on the ground watching and learning. Not all skydiving experience comes from jumping!!!
That "time on the ground" is where familiarity with equipment comes from. As stated in a comment up thread, this is not the 80’s – 90’s.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Birdshit & Fools Productions
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
Squeak 17
Hell I'd support that, and I would love to be able to take their driving licences off of them also.QuoteQuoteFYI effective July 1st, 2012 anyone wanting to make a jump at Sky Dive San Marcos must have an AAD equipped rig. No exceptions!
This is awesome. Congratulations Skydive San Marcos.
When I open my DZ, I'm going to ban all jumpers that believe in God.
If jumpers don't like it, they can go somewhere else.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?
QuoteQuoteFatalities often result in an increase in business. There is a reason for that.
I've heard that a dozen times, and it never sounds any less stupid the next time. And it definitely wouldn't work that way in my small town.
If fatalities increase business, I'll be happy to go out of business.
obelixtim 100
Quote've heard that a dozen times, and it never sounds any less stupid the next time. And it definitely wouldn't work that way in my small town.
If fatalities increase business, I'll be happy to go out of business.
If you've heard that a dozen times, don't you think there may be some substance to it?.
It actually does happen that way, stupid as it sounds to you. Can you think why that may be?.
And no, it isn't a marketing stategy. It a consequence of an unfortunate event.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
...The use of AAD's is an industry standard...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Only because of previous decisions such as this.
1) DZ requires AAD's.
2) People w/out AAD's no longer jump there.
3) New jumpers are conditioned to believe everyone has an AAD and that it is very dangerous to jump w/out one. They rarely/never interact with people who jump w/out AAD's.
4) After a few years these new jumpers open their own DZ's and require AAD's because they've never known anything else and have been conditioned to dismiss arguments against such policies.
5) This practice becomes known as the "industry standard."
Cheers,
Jon
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Only because of previous decisions such as this.
1) DZ requires AAD's.
2) People w/out AAD's no longer jump there.
3) New jumpers are conditioned to believe everyone has an AAD and that it is very dangerous to jump w/out one. They rarely/never interact with people who jump w/out AAD's.
4) After a few years these new jumpers open their own DZ's and require AAD's because they've never known anything else and have been conditioned to dismiss arguments against such policies.
5) This practice becomes known as the "industry standard."
Cheers,
Jon
Whatever.
Lay off the DZOs and the policies we make, no matter how stupid they seem to you. We're trying to stay safely in business, which might be-- guess what!?!-- good for you too!
I like the one somebody posted about "believing in God". Well, guess what? If a DZO made such a policy and you didn't like it, you could just go jump somewhere else!! Wow, what a concept!!!
As Jack Nicholson put it: "I have neither the time nor inclination to explain myself to the man who rides and jumps from the airplane which I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it....... I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up an airplane and open a dropzone... Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!"
Skydiving is not a right, it's a privilege. Unless you can pull Jet-Fuel from your ass. (If you can do that, contact me and I'll hire you tomorrow!)
Lay off the DZOs and the policies we make, no matter how stupid they seem to you. We're trying to stay safely in business, which might be-- guess what!?!-- good for you too!
I like the one somebody posted about "believing in God". Well, guess what? If a DZO made such a policy and you didn't like it, you could just go jump somewhere else!! Wow, what a concept!!!
As Jack Nicholson put it: "I have neither the time nor inclination to explain myself to the man who rides and jumps from the airplane which I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it....... I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up an airplane and open a dropzone... Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!"
Skydiving is not a right, it's a privilege. Unless you can pull Jet-Fuel from your ass. (If you can do that, contact me and I'll hire you tomorrow!)
Skydiving is not a right, it's a privilege. Unless you can pull Jet-Fuel from your ass. (If you can do that, contact me and I'll hire you tomorrow!)
Got to say, “Nothing Like a Pissed Off DZO”
Faster, Faster, Faster
Till the Thrill of Speed
Overcomes the Fear of Death
Till the Thrill of Speed
Overcomes the Fear of Death
skypuppy 1
QuoteIf a DZ requires an AAD and an unfortunate accident happens due to AAD malfunction, doesn't it open the dz to potential liability for requiring these?
I've wondered about this. There was a situation a couple of years ago where a semi-experienced jumper rented a rig from a quebec dz with a mandatory aad policy and went in with the aad turned off. I've always wondered if they make you use borrowed gear and you fuck up, wouldn't that make them liable?
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
skypuppy 1
QuoteQuoteQuoteFatalities often result in an increase in business. There is a reason for that.
I've heard that a dozen times, and it never sounds any less stupid the next time. And it definitely wouldn't work that way in my small town.
If fatalities increase business, I'll be happy to go out of business.
You've heard it a dozen times because it's happened a dozen times. I would say that as a general rule, unless the dropzone is closed down, it pretty much always happens.
And a fatality at a dz down the road will increase customers for all other dzs in the area for at least a short while....If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
skypuppy 1
Quote>If a DZ requires an AAD and an unfortunate accident happens due to AAD
>malfunction, doesn't it open the dz to potential liability for requiring these?
Nope, not particularly. The use of AAD's is an industry standard.
I would say that for students and tandems, it is an industry standard. I would say the jury is still out on whether it is for experienced jumpers....
That may vary from region to region and dz to dz, but I don't think you can really talk for everyone, especially in the case where someone showed up without an aad and they made him use one of the dz rigs with their aad in it.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
skypuppy 1
QuoteQuoteJust a question, what if the DZ set a jump minimum for having an AAD. So saying anyone with less than X amount of jumps must use one and after that its your choice. I'm sure there would be a number most would agree with. 100? 250? Thoughts?
Most DZ's I've seen with an AAD requirement have a 1000 jump exception.
At skydive toronto they started with 500, the next year it was 1000, now it's everyone, which is exactly what we predicted was going to happen when he said he was going to bring it in. And you can't jump vintage gear now unless it has three-rings on it.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
billvon 2,396
>1) DZ requires AAD's.
>2) People w/out AAD's no longer jump there.
>3) New jumpers are conditioned to believe everyone . . .
>4) After a few years these new jumpers open their own DZ's and require
>AAD's because they've never known anything else and have been
>conditioned to dismiss arguments against such policies.
>5) This practice becomes known as the "industry standard."
In my experience it goes more like:
1) Jumper hears about someone dying from a no pull.
2) They get an AAD.
3) After a while so many people have AAD's that most newer jumpers get an AAD as a matter of course.
4) After that point, AAD's become the industry standard.
Most DZ's don't require AAD's - but most jumpers hear about no-pull fatalities.
>2) People w/out AAD's no longer jump there.
>3) New jumpers are conditioned to believe everyone . . .
>4) After a few years these new jumpers open their own DZ's and require
>AAD's because they've never known anything else and have been
>conditioned to dismiss arguments against such policies.
>5) This practice becomes known as the "industry standard."
In my experience it goes more like:
1) Jumper hears about someone dying from a no pull.
2) They get an AAD.
3) After a while so many people have AAD's that most newer jumpers get an AAD as a matter of course.
4) After that point, AAD's become the industry standard.
Most DZ's don't require AAD's - but most jumpers hear about no-pull fatalities.
Because drunk driving is a crime and not an approved use by the manufacturer of the vehicle. My guess is there are probably even warnings in the owners manual about it.
D-10855
Houston, TX
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