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Namowal

Getting people to jump with you

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Perris has load organizers who are very welcoming of low number jumpers. Mark, Darryld, Bob, Dave, Jeanine, and Grace. Just ask manifest whose LO'ing, and they will point them out to you. There are also many experienced jumpers who feel gratitude for the help they got when they were new, and are happy to show it by jumping with newbies. I'm one. I'm still learning. Hang around long enough and you occasionally find yourself to be a fount of wisdom and experience to newcomers. We are happy to help you learn, so we can have more friends to play with.

Blue skies,
Dan'l

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What you are talking about is the BPA. Basically the A licence is worthless, in fact so is the B. You can only jump with coaches and nobody else.

You have to get a qualification called FS1. Which means about 10-15 coach jumps. Which sounds simple enough right?

Except outside the three big DZs in the UK. There are no coaches. Even at the massive dropzones. I've been to I've been unable to find coaches.

Well strictly thats not true, there are coaches, but they don't coach. :D. Since most of them fly camera or are tandem instructors.

When faced with the prospect of making money + a free slot vs a free slot only.

For example my old DZ which I am banned for life from. 13 people with coach tickets.

5 of them are tandem instructors
8 of them fly camera for the above tandems.

The BPA fucked it up even more. Whereby to get coaching experience you need to coach people. Except you can't coach people unless you are a coach. :ph34r: Therefore you can't get coaching experience.

This sums it up nicely:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3ylri6Oz21qehv22o1_1280.jpg


So yes, if you had 2000 jumps. You would not be allowed to jump with a 100 jump wonder as you're not a coach.


There is a ruckus about this over at the other place. You get several factions:

The fuck'ems who are the BPA council and big dropzone types. Who don't see any problems.

The massive home DZ guys happen to have the massive DZs as their home DZs who don't see a problem. Ah yes a 3 hour drive each way (with $10 a gallon gas) and taking tons of time off work is absolutely no problem at all! :D

The others. The ones who reside at the smaller DZs who find massive difficulty in getting coach jumps. (I got what 6 coach jumps in 8 months coach shortages were so severe). Who are ignored by the Fuck'ems and told to man the fuck up by the massive home DZ guys.

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Do about 10 or 15 coach jumps, then do some tunnel time. It will save you time, money and bad habits. And relax, we all sucked at under 100 jumps, except for the madskillz dudes, but they're all jumping wingsuit off of cliffs now.:)Newbie jumpers all trying to teach each other is like a group of beginning golfers all telling each other what is wrong with their swings.:P
And remember, be safe, have FUN!
And keep drawingB|




The sport has really gone to hell in a hand basket if this is the right answer.[:/]


You beat me to it.[:/]

If you are at a DZ that doesn't have experienced people willing to take you up on a regular basis, you may want to consider a different DZ.

If you have to PAY someone to jump with you on a fun jump, you may want to consider a different DZ.

There are too many out here willing and able to jump with youngsters on our own dime. It's called "Pay it Forward".

Unfortunately, as Chris was alluding to, there are also too many out here that won't jump with you unless you pay them. Greedy fools, IMHO.

You should make them pay YOU. Charge them for:
- getting to observe the funny stuff you will be doing
- experiencing the visual of that big grin you will have when you get it right.
- knowing that they helped a young jumper move one step up the ladder of success.
:D:D:)
Ask yourself, what did we do before wind tunnels and structured paid coaching.....we had fun. Money was NOT the issue.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Coach jumps do not mean PAID coach jumps...plenty of places where coach jumps are free....




Plenty of places where they are not free. And lots of places that won't let their new jumpers jump with other than coaches until they have and A license.



...and charge $80+ per jump.
BS.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I love telling this story because a) it's true and b) it one of the reasons why I wholeheartedly support the "Pay it Forward /Skyward" concept.

As a young jumper trying to learn FS, I was taken under the wing by an experienced crew who took me out on all their FS jumps. Making a long story short, here's how it went:
"OK guys. We have 8 guys and we're going to do a 7-way jump. Andy, if you make it to the formation, try to dock on me."

Oh, I guess it was about on the 50th attempt, I screwed up the jump....I actually made it to the formation and it surprised the guys so much that they forgot what the next point was.
:D:D:D

Thanks, Max.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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...but currently I'm not very good. I backslide like crazy and have trouble with my fall rate.



With the above in mind, I can understand why you are hesitant to jump with others in a group. If there's a plan that involves you, and you can't get there, you come away feeling like you 'ruined' the jump. It's probably not the case, but you might feel that way.

The good news is that you know what the problems are, so you can fix them. DSE seems ready to jump with you, so do a couple jumps and work on some forward movement and falling straight down. If the entire jump is dedicated to doing away with your backsliding problem (and you have it on video, I think DSE has a camera) it won't take more than a jump or two for you to 'get' falling straight down.

Once you have that figured out, then look at your fall rate issues. Keep in mind that backsliding around the sky with your legs up isn't going to help your fall rate. You might find the fall rate easier to manage once you're falling straight down, so you might not really have a fall rate problem at all.

If you do have a fall rate problem, again, just a couple of dedicated jumps with an experiecned jumper should gave you plenty of working time to iron them out.

Learning anything 'on the fly' during group jumps is tough. You don't get any extended practice time when you can focus on the skill, there are too many other things going on. if you feel like you have some areas that are lacking, clean them up with some two-ways, and then get in on some group jumps (and by that I mean 3 or 4 ways, start off small).

Here's the kicker, you still might screw up and not get to your slot. You might go low, or float, or backslide. There's a difference between jumping with a coach who is there is help you, and some other jumpers who might not even be able to help themselves. The thing to keep in mind is that it's OK to not be perfect.

You have a couple of areas that you feel weak in, and that makes shy away from jumping with others. Set your mind at ease by addressing those areas. If you put in the effort and perform well with a coach, you should be confident that any errors you make moving forward are par for the course, and anyone who would hold those against you is the one making the error.

Don't take freefall too serisouly. It's a game, it's just some fun time that jumpers have together before getting down to the serious business of saving their lives. A good jump is one where breakoff happens on-time, everyone tracks and achieves good seperation, everyone has a good opening (or a good reserve opening if need be) and everyone has a safe landing.

Don't get too worked up about freefall. A 'bad' freefall will be forgotten soon after the jump is over, but something like bad tracking, or a bad landing can will last much longer. Don't sweat the small stuff, and freefall is small stuff.

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I'm sure this has already been discussed with you, but being in So.Cal. you have an advantage that the majority of jumpers don't have: a good tunnel with good coaches close to where you live and jump. Consider using that to work some of your kinks out.

On another note...

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That's kinda funny that I'm cool with jumping out of a plane, but asking others to go with me is another story.



...sounds like a good theme for a new cartoon!

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I've had my A licence for over a month now, and am trying to jump with other people whenever I get the opportunity.

Tell 'em you'll draw them a cartoon. B|:D

Seriously, there some really good points of view in this thread, practically all valid, depending on where you may be. I've done my share of "free" coach jumps, buying my own slot with a newer jumper, but I squeeze those jumps in between working as an instructor and group jumps with my wife and friends. Also, I often don't even know who's new and looking for help.

Possibly start by asking more experienced jumpers for advice and ground coaching on the problems you're having. That's usually how I meet people that could use some help. It's very rewarding working with a jumper that wants to learn, so make sure you have your "dedicated learner" hat on. ;) They may not be able to jump with you right then, but you'll have made the connection.

The people at manifest know most of jumpers pretty well. They'll know who might have the time and desire to work with a lower experience jumper.

Paid coaches are not my favorite way of getting experience, but they are a part of the sport now; something I occasionally get tapped to do. If I am a paid coach, I will make the jump 100% about the student, trying at all times to maximize their learning. Pre-jump instruction, targeted learning objectives and video debrief are all things you should expect from a good coach.

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I prefer Red. Tony always has it in a cooler behind his stove... Failing that, there is usually a case of it in my office.;)
Tomorrow is looking light if you'd like to change plans again. or there's always next weekend.


Light? I thought it was going to be a zoo. The closest I'm getting to freefall today is the blast from the hairdryer at Supercuts. D'oh.
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Yes Squeak...the dress comes off on occasion, special occasions...



The Eagle will do a jump with The Duck? In exchange for Gatorade? That's mighty nice of you!:)
My blog with the skydiving duck cartoons.

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I love telling this story because a) it's true and b) it one of the reasons why I wholeheartedly support the "Pay it Forward /Skyward" concept.



At the risk of veering off topic, is there any way, at this point, that I can pay it forward to newer noobs? I'm too new to give advice (with the exception of "doubleknott your shoelaces").:)
My blog with the skydiving duck cartoons.

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This makes me feel guilty about asking to jump with more experienced pals, and very reluctant to ask to jump with people I don't know well.

The paradox is, I'm not getting any better at jumping with others until I get more practice at, well, jumping with others.

Any suggestions? Or should I just cough up the money for coached jumps when it looks like I'm on my own?


Back when I was starting out at Elsinore, I went to all the Excel camps, like you're doing. On other weekends, I jumped with other newbies, and we tried to work on stuff together. If someone experienced invited me on a jump, I said yes (after letting them know what my skill level was). It's true that we did not improve as fast as if we always jumped with very experienced jumpers, but we had fun, we asked for help when we didn't know how to do something, or why something kept not working, and we slowly but surely improved.

There are people getting their A-license every week at Elsinore (or at least that's what it feels like). Jump with them and do simple dives, where you're working just on fall rate, or proximity, or a few simple docks. A load organizer or experienced jumper will put together a dive for you if you want. Jump, land, pack, repeat. Ask for help if something goes wrong, but you don't know why. Slowly but surely, you'll improve, too.

And when an experienced jumper does a simple dive with you, remember that. So when you become an experienced jumper, you'll remember that it's important to jump with new people yourself, even if it's not the most challenging skydive for you.

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At the risk of veering off topic, is there any way, at this point, that I can pay it forward to newer noobs?



Your sigline is your answer. You're already doing it, by letting them know A. what to expect and B. that they're not alone.

You're in that scary time when you're thrown in with the sharks and told to swim. The best way to survive is to swim up to the sharks and ask where the tastiest surfers are. I guarantee they'll be happy to point you in the right direction. Don't fear rejection, fear being a shitty shark.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

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Ask manifest to callout for you. This is something STF does actively and it really helps. One benefit of the USPA system is that 2 A license jumpers can get out and have fun together. The problem is that too many don't plan according to their skill level. At 36 jumps with another A jumper just matching fall rate and being able to dock do a simple manouver and redock is learning. Ideally any formation work should be under the guidence of an experienced jumper (this doesn't mean they jump with you, simply debrief the plan before and performance after)

If you can't get someone to jump with you hop and pops are cheap and allow you to focus on canopy flight. Don't forget that the new B requirements have alot more emphasis on safe canopy flight...
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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Yep -- doing a couple of things slowly and well is way better than trying a shitload of stuff and completing none of it.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I'm the same way.... actually, I'm still the same way a few hundred jumps later. I'm kind of new to the DZ's in my area over the past year or two, but honestly I'm the same no matter where I am-- I don't really go out of my way to invite my way on to other peoples jumps, even ones I know I can hold my own on. A lot of people say grow a pair and just go ask, but for me I don't like to invite myself to anything or impose on people, so it would make sense for me that this carries over to my skydiving as well.

I'll admit I do get a little bummed sometimes when I see everybody in their groups jumping, but I remind myself that I don't go out of my way to ask to join, so I better suck it up and get my ass on the plane for a solo. To each their own, I guess!
Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

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I'm the same way.... actually, I'm still the same way a few hundred jumps later. I'm kind of new to the DZ's in my area over the past year or two, but honestly I'm the same no matter where I am-- I don't really go out of my way to invite my way on to other peoples jumps, even ones I know I can hold my own on. A lot of people say grow a pair and just go ask, but for me I don't like to invite myself to anything or impose on people, so it would make sense for me that this carries over to my skydiving as well.

I'll admit I do get a little bummed sometimes when I see everybody in their groups jumping, but I remind myself that I don't go out of my way to ask to join, so I better suck it up and get my ass on the plane for a solo. To each their own, I guess!



Looking at your profile Ashley... you just need to have a chat with Mad John... or Gareth and have them point you in the right direction.:)

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My apologies Pops and Chris - I realize that many DZs have a program where new jumpers have to pay for coach jumps between off student status and getting their A - and I think that sucks. My home DZ has a program that provides free coach jumps to all our students that are cleared for self supervision up until they get their A license.
That was why I said not all coach jumps are paid coach jumps, plenty of places that have up jumpers willing to jump with newbies for free - just depends on your DZ...

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

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My home DZ has a program that provides free coach jumps to all our students that are cleared for self supervision up until they get their A license.
That was why I said not all coach jumps are paid coach jumps, plenty of places that have up jumpers willing to jump with newbies for free - just depends on your DZ..


Does your DZ pay the coach's slot? When I say I jump with noobs for free, I mean I'm paying for my own slot. If someone bought my slot, I'd coach 'em all day long for a cold beer at the end of the day. B|

Although I'd probably run out of stuff I could teach them after a jump or two. :P:D

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My tip is also: Keep asking, or start asking around your DZ. Being a girl, your chances are far better than mine were 10 years ago :P
I never forgot that there were folks who jumped with me, just for free. Only a few, but these jumps helped a lot. I also took to paid coach jumps, though ;)
It's a pity that quite a lot of folks with several hundred jumps forget that they once also started out. It should be part of the game to give back to the community. Apart from that, jumping with noobs is satisfying (coz you're the 'hero' ;):D) and I found out I often learn something from jumping with a noob. Did 4 unpaid coach jumps with noobs on Saturday and they enjoyed it and we all learned something new.
So heck, just tell you look for someone to jump with you, and I am sure you will find some partners. But - being a girl - watch out who's offering their help - not all of them will offer it coz they're so good at jumping, you know :);) (Just kidding)

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

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