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Marisan

Acceptable Fatalities

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>Basic facts:
>I made a 300-foot entry turn mistake and fixing it was a yawner. She
>made a 30-foot error and died.

And I have several friends who were flying straight in, screwed up and died.

Based on this it might seem like you could draw the conclusion "therefore big turns are safer than small ones, and small turns are safer than straight in approaches" but that would be faulty reasoning.



Sorry, the faulty reasoning lies with you: I never said any such thing.

It's not turn-dependent; it's ALTITUDE dependent. What part of that is so hard for everyone to undertand?

I was jumping a canopy with a huge recovery arc so when I botched my entry, I had 300 feet to fix it; no problem. When my friend botched her landing on a small recovery arc canopy, she had 30 feet to fix it; game over.

Please read my article attached above that was inspired by her death and then we can continue.

44
B|


Hi Robin,

So you are saying that the problem is the little boys trying to emulate the big boys but with inappropriate gear and also lacking the knowledge and experience to jump the appropriate gear all the while thinking they they are making a safe progression until it all turns to shit. (What a long sentence)
Therefore most training and doctrine for learning HP landings has been wrong and is a major factor in the carnage? (That doesn't apply to the hotshots that won't listen to anyone)

Regards


Marisan

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>Basic facts:
>I made a 300-foot entry turn mistake and fixing it was a yawner. She
>made a 30-foot error and died.

And I have several friends who were flying straight in, screwed up and died.

Based on this it might seem like you could draw the conclusion "therefore big turns are safer than small ones, and small turns are safer than straight in approaches" but that would be faulty reasoning.



Sorry, the faulty reasoning lies with you: I never said any such thing.

It's not turn-dependent; it's ALTITUDE dependent. What part of that is so hard for everyone to undertand?

I was jumping a canopy with a huge recovery arc so when I botched my entry, I had 300 feet to fix it; no problem. When my friend botched her landing on a small recovery arc canopy, she had 30 feet to fix it; game over.

Please read my article attached above that was inspired by her death and then we can continue.

44
B|


Hi Robin,

So you are saying that the problem is the little boys trying to emulate the big boys but with inappropriate gear and also lacking the knowledge and experience to jump the appropriate gear all the while thinking they they are making a safe progression until it all turns to shit. (What a long sentence)
Therefore most training and doctrine for learning HP landings has been wrong and is a major factor in the carnage? (That doesn't apply to the hotshots that won't listen to anyone)

Regards


Marisan


Your sexist spin notwithstanding (after all, my article was inspired by the death of a woman trying to emulate the big boys), your first sentence is essentially correct except that this is not THE problem with swooping; it is A problem with swooping.

The principal problem with swooping is that aiming yourself at the ground and then trying to miss it at the last second is a RUSH but it's not practical.

Your second sentence is not essentially correct because, IIRC, most of the swoop fatalities happen to the bigger boys, not the kids, and that relates less to gear, knowledge and experience and more to the incontrovertible fact that aiming yourself at the ground and then trying to miss it at the last second is a RUSH but it's not practical.

44
B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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Scenario. A non swooper goes too far on their crosswind leg over trees and to adjust back to their landing area now has to make a turn larger than 90. As they've never done this and were NOT even allowed to:
* They make the larger turn and unfamiliar with the added speed ...
* They do a 90 and then do another turn after, possibly too low...
* They do their 90 and crash into trees or panic turn at the last minute to avoid...

It's highly likely that the above jumper even if allowed to make larger turns wouldn't practice or try them but that would be theirt whereas if a DZ bans them it becomes the DZs fault for limiting a jumpers "bag o' tricks" they can practice/use.[



No way man, not even close.

If you can't fly a landing pattern correctly with your current wing, you're on the wrong wing.

If you can't handle a simple flat turn with your current wing, you're on the wrong wing.

If you can't manage to keep yourself from flying into a 'box' where your choices are either collide with an obstacle or huck a 180 to get out of there, you're on the wrong wing.

Your entire example is based on the premise that a jumper from a '90 only' DZ is going to be short changed in the skills department, but the fact is that by the time a jumper is skilled and experienced enough to be proficient with 90s, and is being held back by the DZ restriction, their basic canopy control skills would be such that they wouldn't make the rookie mistakes you're putting forth as examples, or if they did, they would be able to fly themselves out of it with no problems.

There's a big difference between a 90 degree turn to a swoop, and a 270 degree turn to a swoop. There's also a difference between a 90 degree turn to a swoop, and a 180 flat turn to get out of trouble, and the difference is that the 90 to a swoop takes more skill and experience to pull off, where the flat turn should be no bog deal for any jumper with 50 to 100 jumps.

You're looking for a reason that limiting the turns is a bad thing, but the fact is that it will create a safer landing pattern and LZ for all involved. I'm not saying I agree with it, or support it, but ask yourself this - when was the last time you heard of a serious wreck at a go-kart track, and compare that to the last time you heard od such a wreck at a full size road-race course?

The go-karts are slower, and therefore easier to control and less of a hazzard to each other. Watch a Nascar race, and you're bound to see a wreck of two of significant magnitude, and that takes out any number of otherwise un-involved vehicles. You can't deny that going slower and doing less manuvering makes for a safer driving (or canopy flying) environment.

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people shouldn't be swooping until they have enough jumps and training to be able to handle those canopies in all conditions and the judgement to know what not to swoop.

What your argument leads to is jumpers pushing the downsizing and rushing to HP canopies because they want to swoop, and those are 'safer', and in those cases that's not the case. The canopies dive longer, fly faster, and require greater care and judgement to fly safely, and if you don't have that, they're not 'safe' for any purpose.



Agree with you but if someone is jumping at a 90 only DZ or only has 90 only DZs near them, who/how are they going to get this training? Without being able to do larger turns, how can they safely downsize?

Unless the 90 only DZ allows larger turns on low passes the only way they'll be able to get more speed is to downsize



There is no necessary connection between downsizing and bigger turns. Any canopy a person has the skill to handle can be landed safely using a straight-in approach.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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I chose a centrist path . . . Swoops allowed but only on a low pass and they are limited to the high performance landing area. While I cannot eliminate the pilot errors, I can make it less likely that the pilot error will kill an innocent who just happens to be in the wrong place at the right time and gets taken out.
Charlie Gittins
MEI-I, CFI-I
Sigma TI; AFF-I
FAA Senior Rigger

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I chose a centrist path . . . Swoops allowed but only on a low pass and they are limited to the high performance landing area. While I cannot eliminate the pilot errors, I can make it less likely that the pilot error will kill an innocent who just happens to be in the wrong place at the right time and gets taken out.



4 or 5 years ago this would be considered extremely restrictive. Now it's considered centrist. :o Thanks for allowing all jump types still.

How quickly we've gone from:
* No restrictions.
* Separation by time or space.
* Separation by time and space.
* No turns over 90/removing swoop ponds.

Makes me wonder what group will be next. Most likely wingsuiters. [:/]
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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Back to the topic of acceptable Fatalities... At what point do we make the decision to dial it back a bit? It seems (this thread as an example) it depends on the person and their perspective/paradigm of the sport.

I keep seeing Marisan (and others) getting called out for his support of carnage reduction. He's not an old fart aimlessly yelling at the kids!! In his own way, he has vigorously kept this conversation alive and vital. Like it or not, for that alone I salute him.

It's of little consequence whether or not he's offering a solution to the problem. He is fighting the fight to keep the conversation going. If that conversation leads to an acceptable solution to an obvious problem, then he is a hero. Not because he came up with the solution, but simply because he kept the conversation alive.
B| IMHO of course.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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There's also a distinction between competitive and recreational swooping that usually goes unrecognized.

With competitive swooping the goals are as fast and far as possible. Winning requires accepting the same risks that your competitors do. Taking the Formula One Drivers Championship means doing 200 MPH racing inches from the competition with totaling the car likely and dying not improbable.

With recreational swooping the goals are fast and far enough. There's a lot of latitude in setting the risk knob. Negative outcomes are a lot less likely when you eschew wheel to wheel racing for driving at less than 90% on the local road course open track day with no passing allowed in the corners.

This is less about equipment choice (I know a guy who bought a Porsche 996 GT3 Cup car for track days) and more about how it's used.

In swooping there's a lot of latitude in the sorts of turns made regardless of equipment choice. A slow turn rate carving front riser turn from high altitude can generate a lot of speed while keeping the jumper out of the corner and providing plenty of room to fit the turn into whatever altitude (hundreds of feet between high and low are possible for a ninety degree turn) and distance is required on the jump in question via both front risers, harness input, and in extreme cases arriving at the landing heading in a carving flare with both toggles for the jumper who's really botched his approach or is just having fun. That will never win a competition but that's OK when winning is not a near term goal.

This is overlooked by the majority of skydivers who will never swoop competitively or for whom that's years away and I speculate the pro-swooping approach played a role in Emily Berkeley's death.

When I learned to swoop there wasn't any canopy coaching and we just figured it out. I used to fly my Stiletto 120 to an appropriate altitude and location, give a hard yank on one front riser and be along for the ride until I ended up a bit too low, dug out, popped back up a substantial distance, and set down hard from the resulting stall. It hurt to walk and shift my motorcycle for a few months. I realized I could still get a lot of speed in a less aggressive turn that covered more altitude with a lot more margin for error and made the switch. Now that canopy courses are common people needn't learn that lesson through first hand experience.

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I know that the comment will be made that Im a newbie to the sport and probably have no clue what I am talking about but Skydiving is an extreme sport there will be injuries and deaths!! most can be avoided by the person if they have the common sense and training to do what ever displine they choose. This is true no matter what the sport. but seriously is there anyone standing on top of the slope saying you cant do that double black diamond because you have only been on that board for x amount of runs, or someone at the base of a climb saying no you cant do that 5.11d because you have only 20 climbs No. It honestly comes down to common sense. people and their ego's will always try to do dumbshit that will get them hurt or worse. and sometimes they pioneer something new because of it. It becomes a personal risk vs reward. we all sign waivers before we ever get on a plane at a dz. or hit the slopes, motocross parks the list goes on and on .. and then we are responsible for our actions after. not always the right actions either..
I dont agree with a lot of the risks that people take but it is inevitable that they will take them..
I think it all comes down to training at the beginning stages of a skydivers career, help them to understand and learn. not regulate and ban!

just the ramblings of a rookie around here and yep after I look at this a few times I may decide I need an edit but my bottom line is the same
Train them from the start so they can be more educated in their decisions and have a better understanding of their risks and consequenses to themselves and possibly others..

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So, what your saying is...

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aiming yourself at the ground and then trying to miss it at the last second is a RUSH but it's not practical.



;)

Don't Pull Low... Unless You ARE!!!
The pessimist says, "It can't get any worse than this." The optimist says, "Sure, it can."
Be fun, have safe.

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2 things happen in this sport:

a) someone gets hurt doing HP landings and they have experience: accident

b) someone gets hurt doing HP landings and they don't have enough experience: idiot

Interpretation divides a and b

Jeff

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And even with 90's, people will still be severely injured or worse.



So therefore it is a pointless bandaid? Nothing more than a PR exercise?



Not pointless.

1. Bigger turns build more energy, screw up and you get hurt more
2. Bigger turns require more skill

And the big one IMO
3. Bigger turns cause a bigger traffic problem. A 90* turn is safer for traffic than a 270* turn.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I don't really understand some of the thoughts here.
First the man that the article was written about was trying to accomplish something: Kill Nazis. He figured it was OK to lose a few good guys if you kill a bunch of Nazis.
So what is accomplished by killing people so they can swoop?
Back in the day, people use to pull low. They had low pull contests. They got thrown off the DZ. Why? Cause people died doing it, Bad PR.
Base jumping arrived. Skydiving has tried to distance itself from base jumping, Why? Bad PR.
So where does that leave swooping?
U only make 2 jumps: the first one for some weird reason and the last one that you lived through. The rest are just filler.
scr 316

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I don't really understand some of the thoughts here.
First the man that the article was written about was trying to accomplish something: Kill Nazis. He figured it was OK to lose a few good guys if you kill a bunch of Nazis.
So what is accomplished by killing people so they can swoop?
Back in the day, people use to pull low. They had low pull contests. They got thrown off the DZ. Why? Cause people died doing it, Bad PR.
Base jumping arrived. Skydiving has tried to distance itself from base jumping, Why? Bad PR.
So where does that leave swooping?



I didn't realize that low pull contests were a thing of the past.
:o:)

Don't Pull Low... Unless You ARE!!!
The pessimist says, "It can't get any worse than this." The optimist says, "Sure, it can."
Be fun, have safe.

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Back to the topic of acceptable Fatalities... At what point do we make the decision to dial it back a bit? It seems (this thread as an example) it depends on the person and their perspective/paradigm of the sport.

I keep seeing Marisan (and others) getting called out for his support of carnage reduction. He's not an old fart aimlessly yelling at the kids!! In his own way, he has vigorously kept this conversation alive and vital. Like it or not, for that alone I salute him.

It's of little consequence whether or not he's offering a solution to the problem. He is fighting the fight to keep the conversation going. If that conversation leads to an acceptable solution to an obvious problem, then he is a hero. Not because he came up with the solution, but simply because he kept the conversation alive.



I also applaud Marisan for continuing this discussion, but hope that he maintains focus on the real problems ... the ease of access to smaller, high-performance canopies and the continued acceptance of swooping at too many DZ's.
:o:S

Perhaps the sport has evolved or progressed enough to recognize that swooping is NOT skydiving. Perhaps it is time to prohibit swooping at all DZ's so those of us who choose to skydive can do so without getting killed by some kid under a tiny canopy they don't know how to fly.
>:(>:(>:(

Let's hope that this conversation continues until it reaches enough ears to finally stop the death and destruction that 'swooping' has caused. Thank you Marisan and all of the other jumpers who have the wisdom and experience to fight this battle.

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Im not a swooper and have no immediate plans to be one. But really think about it . Ban swooping, whats next ?? Fatalities do shift from one aspect of the sport to another. And they will in any extreme sport. The human ego will not allow it to stop. you stop swooping they will find something else that will give the adrenaline rush..
trained canopy pilots will have accidents, they make their choices and understand the consequenses.
It all comes down to training the young ones to fly canopies within their skill range, take training, and so on and so on , not banning shit!!!
i really do see arguments both ways on a lot of things but really stop with the ban this and ban that .. we should probably all be jumping 260 mantas and doing no more than a four way because anything else would be to f'ing dangerous..

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Perhaps it is time to prohibit swooping at all DZ's so those of us who choose to skydive can do so without getting killed by some kid under a tiny canopy they don't know how to fly.
.



Yawn...

I've seen more shoddy pattern flying by the old time instructors doing 90's or "straight" in approaches then I typically see with disciplined canopy pilots. What I saw at Perris in February in the main landing area was incredibly undisciplined. "S" turns on final are tolerated and its unacceptable.

The quicker we figure out that this canopy issues is an "US" problem and not a "THEM" problem...the better off we will all be.

Get off your high horse and offer a solution that doesn't start with Ban them!
Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

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Interesting thinking - follow on from an article you posted in Parachutist a few years ago as I recall.

As Ron mentioned earlier in the thread, it is about punters building up their skill levels on less demanding and high performance wings. Putting this info out like that makes it sound like you are saying doing bigger turns or getting a smaller wing is being safer - that is just bullshit. Safety for a swooper starts with education, training, good setups and having a good understanding of what is going on and what you can do safely and consistently.

The other issue that I see is that with jumpers that have not spent a lot of time working on the their larger wings struggle with smaller wings and carry forward their bad habits which takes even more time to unlearn on a smaller more loaded wing. Some of the errors that I had picked up along the way only really manifested on the smaller wings (or became more noticeable). The other problem is that it takes time to build up the sight picture of how much the canopy dives AND smaller canopies tend to recover out of vertical descent more slowly than bigger less agressive canopies.

I agree that having more time to deal with stuff and to recognise what is going on is a good thing. But just getting a smaller / more agressive canopy is not the answer. Sometimes you know before you turn that you are low and need to speed that up, or during part of the rollout that you need to get the hurry along, a smaller canopy in of itself does not give you this. Time under your wing, time on your turn and coaching gives you this.

The example that you had given of Adria would definetly have a smaller window of opportunity to get it right for a good swoop. To me it is about recognising what and where she wanted to go and putting in place a plan to get there. If you are running a 270 or larger you should be on a wing that is suited to do it, based on your experience and capabilities. Don't forget there are different types of turns (and how they finish off) - e.g. a very carvey type of turn will not have the same level of commitment as an accelerating finish turn and with a short recovery arc canopy that would be very low indeed. People doing these landings you should know it (canopy coaching anyone?)

I think the flip side of the problem is a bigger issue, punters that want to do big swoops with little experience and will use this as I want to swoop therefore I need a smaller canopy and I am safer mental justification for downsizing. Personally, I think that is about the progression which is built up on a series of canopies and turns over time (experience)

I like this quote: "In other words, if you want to swoop with the big dogs, you need to dedicate yourself – and your canopy". I agree with it, but think it is more about recognising what you are doing, where you canopy flight is at and what you want to get to. Something we as skydivers are usually fairly deficient at.

I do agree that we have a cultural problem in skydiving - people don't spend enough time thinking about their choices of canopy flight. The attitude of I can get a smaller wing because I can get away with it, rather than I want a smaller wing so I can get more X performance on it. (and I am willing to do the time and training to make it worthwhile). Or the I have a 1000 jumps I need to have a velocity kind of thinking (though I just land straight in or do 90s). I don't think we do enough on coaching and questioning of goals.

In comp I fly a JVX79 @ 2.65
For work I have an 84 and 90 velo - they are more practical and I don't use a RDS with them. This is an example of making a choice based on activities - ie. the 79 is to much hassle for work jumps.

Ohh and you are right swooping is not practical - it is fun however.
The same can be said for skydiving (it just depends on perspective)

PS. There are some good thoughts in your article but to me, they don't come out as much on your posts.
"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

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Perhaps it is time to prohibit swooping at all DZ's so those of us who choose to skydive can do so without getting killed by some kid under a tiny canopy they don't know how to fly.
.



Yawn...

I've seen more shoddy pattern flying by the old time instructors doing 90's or "straight" in approaches then I typically see with disciplined canopy pilots. What I saw at Perris in February in the main landing area was incredibly undisciplined. "S" turns on final are tolerated and its unacceptable.

The quicker we figure out that this canopy issues is an "US" problem and not a "THEM" problem...the better off we will all be.

Get off your high horse and offer a solution that doesn't start with Ban them![/reply

Well I've got two solutions for you.

Go away and start a swoop only DZ.

Get out by yourself so all those old time instructors (BTW who probably taught you) won't be in your way.

That's two. Where are your solutions?

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Perhaps it is time to prohibit swooping at all DZ's so those of us who choose to skydive can do so without getting killed by some kid under a tiny canopy they don't know how to fly.
.



Yawn...

I've seen more shoddy pattern flying by the old time instructors doing 90's or "straight" in approaches then I typically see with disciplined canopy pilots. What I saw at Perris in February in the main landing area was incredibly undisciplined. "S" turns on final are tolerated and its unacceptable.

The quicker we figure out that this canopy issues is an "US" problem and not a "THEM" problem...the better off we will all be.

Get off your high horse and offer a solution that doesn't start with Ban them!



Additionally anyone that thinks the USPA will be released from any sort of responsibility in the eyes of the government of swoop deaths/injuries if it pushes out swooping to swooping dedicated Non USPA DZs is also fooling themselves.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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Perhaps it is time to prohibit swooping at all DZ's so those of us who choose to skydive can do so without getting killed by some kid under a tiny canopy they don't know how to fly.
.



Yawn...

I've seen more shoddy pattern flying by the old time instructors doing 90's or "straight" in approaches then I typically see with disciplined canopy pilots. What I saw at Perris in February in the main landing area was incredibly undisciplined. "S" turns on final are tolerated and its unacceptable.

The quicker we figure out that this canopy issues is an "US" problem and not a "THEM" problem...the better off we will all be.

Get off your high horse and offer a solution that doesn't start with Ban them!



Additionally anyone that thinks the USPA will be released from any sort of responsibility in the eyes of the government of swoop deaths/injuries if it pushes out swooping to swooping dedicated Non USPA DZs is also fooling themselves.



Well it worked with BASE

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Perhaps it is time to prohibit swooping at all DZ's so those of us who choose to skydive can do so without getting killed by some kid under a tiny canopy they don't know how to fly.
.



Yawn...

I've seen more shoddy pattern flying by the old time instructors doing 90's or "straight" in approaches then I typically see with disciplined canopy pilots. What I saw at Perris in February in the main landing area was incredibly undisciplined. "S" turns on final are tolerated and its unacceptable.

The quicker we figure out that this canopy issues is an "US" problem and not a "THEM" problem...the better off we will all be.

Get off your high horse and offer a solution that doesn't start with Ban them!


Additionally anyone that thinks the USPA will be released from any sort of responsibility in the eyes of the government of swoop deaths/injuries if it pushes out swooping to swooping dedicated Non USPA DZs is also fooling themselves.


Well it worked with BASE


BASE doesn't use airplanes. ;)
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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Well I've got two solutions for you.

Go away and start a swoop only DZ.



That sounds like you are pointing the finger and also starts with ban them. Go away = ban them.
Quote


Get out by yourself so all those old time instructors (BTW who probably taught you) won't be in your way.

That's two. Where are your solutions?



You didn't address the fact that they need to clean up their patterns.

Your post indicates that you believe one group is the problem and the other can just carry on. Again, this is everyones problem and is bigger than just swoopers.

My solution includes better accountability by DZOs to the USPA for a comprehensive plan. Separation of landing patterns works when enforced and implemented with NO exceptions. If you want to ground the kid with the hot rod who is over his head, you have to ground the instructor doing s turns in the pattern or breaking the pattern because they feel like it. Nobody is immune from dying in this sport.
Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

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Perhaps it is time to prohibit swooping at all DZ's so those of us who choose to skydive can do so without getting killed by some kid under a tiny canopy they don't know how to fly.
.



Yawn...

I've seen more shoddy pattern flying by the old time instructors doing 90's or "straight" in approaches then I typically see with disciplined canopy pilots. What I saw at Perris in February in the main landing area was incredibly undisciplined. "S" turns on final are tolerated and its unacceptable.

The quicker we figure out that this canopy issues is an "US" problem and not a "THEM" problem...the better off we will all be.

Get off your high horse and offer a solution that doesn't start with Ban them!


Additionally anyone that thinks the USPA will be released from any sort of responsibility in the eyes of the government of swoop deaths/injuries if it pushes out swooping to swooping dedicated Non USPA DZs is also fooling themselves.


Well it worked with BASE


BASE doesn't use airplanes. ;)


Well they do sometimes:)
But it was said tongue in cheek:ph34r:

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