N00B On a long spot! What to do what to do!

[skybytch 259]

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Can someone who we respect around here as a canopy coach (Ian, AggieDave) chime in?

Scott Miller isn't a good enough source for you? Cuz that's where I learned it...

John LeBlanc seems to agree:

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What about a headwind on a long spot?
If you have a headwind, the special point that doesn't move will be quite close to you. If you need to fly past this point to get to a safe landing area, you will probably need to use front risers. (Make sure your canopy is quite stable on front risers before using this technique) How much front risers? Use the accuracy trick to find out! Try a little front riser and the special point will move. (The angle will start changing). Try a little more and it will move again. Try a little more. Did the point move the wrong direction? That's too much front riser. See how this method works to determine the best control position in any bad spot situation? How about a headwind coming from slightly from one side?

Source. Is he not respected enough for ya?

[piisfish 135]

generalizations on canopy flight are bad anyways. Not all canopies have the same flight characteristics, and not the same polar curve.
What is true for a canopy is not necessarily the same for another one.
This is what you get when you try and learn/teach via the interwebz

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[DaVinciflies 0]

I got it from Flight-1.

And personal experience.

And "The Parachute and it's Pilot" (page 57)

Checkmate?

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Yes, with advice like thiis it IS no wonder that noobs get confused.
The way to deal with a situation where you are flying into the wind and getting pushed backward is to INCREASE the forward speed of your canopy. Pulling rears SLOWS the forward speed of your canopy. Pulling front risers will INCREASEE the forward speed of your canopy, although you'll give up altitude faster in exchange for speed.

I think the difference here is that you are talking about strong headwind where you are being pushed back. In that case you could be right that rears will not help and fronts MAY.

In a moderate headwind, a touch of rears will not appreciably reduce your airspeed but will result in an improved glide ratio. Getting small will further increase penetration due to reduced parasitic drag.

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Using rears to fight a headwiind is simply WRONG.

That statement is incorrect.

[shah269 0]

Guys thank you for the info, GREATLY appreciate it.
This was jump 35 as i recall about two years ago now.
I was on a student rig so no matter what you did the fronts were not going to do much. But i landed safe and I think I did ok.

But thank you for the info.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[pchapman 261]

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John LeBlanc seems to agree:
***What about a headwind on a long spot?
If you have a headwind, the special point that doesn't move will be quite close to you. If you need to fly past this point to get to a safe landing area, you will probably need to use front risers.

He got a little messed up there -- bit of an editing typo.

He is writing about using front risers to try to get a little further upwind in a headwind, yet the title refers to being LONG on a spot.

So unless he redefines the problem as planning to land out upwind, and make it upwind past a tree line, the title about being long has nothing to do with the subsequent text.

[piisfish 135]

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Guys thank you for the info, GREATLY appreciate it.
This was jump 35 as i recall about two years ago now.
I was on a student rig so no matter what you did the fronts were not going to do much. But i landed safe and I think I did ok.

But thank you for the info.

next time ask teh question right after.. not 2 years later

what did you learn from that jump ?
what did you learn from that thread ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[-ftp- 0]

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i used some thermals from a road to make it a few ft

explain this please, you had the wherewithall to use thermals but sat there with the wind in your face pulling on your rears to get back?

Then I notice you are on a canopy loaded 1.1:1 with averaging 20 jumps a year?

Please talk to someone where you jump, the internet is NOT what you need right now.

[-ftp- 0]

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I was on a student rig so no matter what you did the fronts were not going to do much.

This shows you still don't know much or understand canopy flight. When you change the glide angle by pulling on fronts, you WILL change the way a canopy flies.

By your logic, a flare shouldn't work either on a student rig.

I actually think you might be a troll.

[The_Don 0]

Read my posts... He's an IDIOT!!

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[popsjumper 2]

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I half expect someone to say "You should get big with a tailwind to act as a sail"!!

I fully expected it. I can't count the number of times I've had that conversation....always with "experienced" jumpers...even 2 AFFI.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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This shows you still don't know much or understand canopy flight. .

You may want to re-think your post in light of the event in question happened on his jump 35...two years ago.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Read my posts... He's an IDIOT!!

I read your posts. They make me sad...for you.
How quickly we forget.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rifleman 61]

Slightly off topic but just had a tweet from my local DZ (Closed today due to high winds and bad weather):

"Just worked out today's 'spot' as an exercise in futility. 4.3 miles!"

I'm glad I wasn't jumping today - under a student canopy I might have ended up in the Isle of Man. (a small island halfway between england and ireland)

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[shah269 0]

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what did you learn from that jump ?
what did you learn from that thread ?

Pay better attention to the weather.

As for the Navigator, I've pulled up on the front risers and never got much out of it.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[base283 0]

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As for the Navigator, I've pulled up on the front risers and never got much out of it.

Ummm, are you serious? Have you tried pulling them down?
Take care,
space

[nigel99 143]

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Read my posts... He's an IDIOT!!

I read your posts. They make me sad...for you.
How quickly we forget.

I'm not the greatest fan of Shahs bonfire posts, but his skydiving posts are always serious questions.

I really don't agree with the PAs in this thread. About half of the thread needs deleting, some stuff is good learning...

Considering how many experienced jumpers land off, I wonder how many people have the same level of knowledge but keep their mouths shut?

Anyway nobody has stated the obvious, if he jumped a Katana 97 he wouldn't get blown downwind in anything less than a hurricane. Only idiots jump in hurricanes so nothing to worry about.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Anyway nobody has stated the obvious, if he jumped a Katana 97 he wouldn't get blown downwind in anything less than a hurricane. Only idiots jump in hurricanes so nothing to worry about.

There are much better tools for long spots than a Katana 97 though! In fact almost anything would probably be better for a long spot!

[nigel99 143]

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Anyway nobody has stated the obvious, if he jumped a Katana 97 he wouldn't get blown downwind in anything less than a hurricane. Only idiots jump in hurricanes so nothing to worry about.

There are much better tools for long spots than a Katana 97 though! In fact almost anything would probably be better for a long spot!

True, a navigator 260 would be excellent for a long spot upwind.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Austintxflight 0]

canopy course canopy course canopy course. As a jumper just 1 year in but hitting seriously (130+ jumps in 11 months) I did my first canopy course and it was amazing.

They strapped Neptune's to all of us, and one of the great pieces of data it gives you is your decent rate, so you can with real time information find the setting for your individual body and canopy that causes you to lose the least altitude and give you the best shot of getting back to the DZ.

I'm not saying get a digi alti and spend all day staring at it under canopy, but I am saying that a canopy course will teach you so much about the flight characteristics of your canopy and canopies in general that you will have a much better understanding of what to do to get back.

Advice on here is to be taken with a dump truck of salt, thats why the only reasonable answer is to get with a canopy coach and actually work on it, do some hop n pops and just focus on that. Even if you don't have your own gear you will learn the basics and you will learn how to evaluate your own gear so when you get your own (or downsize) you know how to figure out the flight characteristics of your canopy.

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Anyway nobody has stated the obvious, if he jumped a Katana 97 he wouldn't get blown downwind in anything less than a hurricane. Only idiots jump in hurricanes so nothing to worry about.

There are much better tools for long spots than a Katana 97 though! In fact almost anything would probably be better for a long spot!

True, a navigator 260 would be excellent for a long spot upwind.

Perfect! Then cutaway to the KA97 for the landing!

[jhh166 0]

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I half expect someone to say "You should get big with a tail wind to act aail"!!

I fully expected itan't count the number of times I've had that conversation....always with "experienced" jumpers...even 2 AFFI.

I'll bite and I need all the help I can get! So why does the wind against my back prove to be a problem when I'm upwind and trying to max my distance? Thanks!

[popsjumper 2]

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I half expect someone to say "You should get big with a tail wind to act aail"!!

I fully expected itan't count the number of times I've had that conversation....always with "experienced" jumpers...even 2 AFFI.

I'll bite and I need all the help I can get! So why does the wind against my back prove to be a problem when I'm upwind and trying to max my distance? Thanks!

Assuming you are flying a ram-air canopy:
Think about your canopy's inflation and need for airspeed.
Now think about what your canopy will be doing if the wind is somehow pushing on it from the rear thus allowing your body to act as a "sail".

Not being facetious here...Give it some thought. It's always best learning if one comes up with their own answer. If you don't come up with the right one, yes, I'll more than gladly help you out.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[PiLFy 0]

I'm sorry a few small minds are attacking you here, Shah. I'm sure you pay them no mind.

I agree w/others here in suggesting you take a canopy course. This, & a couple other questions of yours show some gaps in your basic knowledge. I'd hate like Hell to read about you one day in the Incident forum... $200 is a lot cheaper than breaking your leg again, right?

[jhh166 0]

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I'm sorry a few small minds are attacking you here, Shah. I'm sure you pay them no mind.

As for the guess (Pops), are you suggesting that the wind against my back will change my pitch? Im kinda stretching here..