Baystate Skydiving Center-Another DZ seeking to gain airport access

[stratostar 5]

Looks like Tom Noonan might have the next airport access fight, brewing....? Kind of hard to tell from the story, but based on a few quotes it sounds like the usual bullshit about safety used to try to keep out skydivers in almost every access case before and currently pending. (12)

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Many in attendance at Saturday’s meeting expressed concern about safety, as skydiving accidents — including skydivers being hit by planes while parachuting — have happened in the past.

In the photo of the story, the look on the face of Ron Mahan, owner of Aerial Skyvertising Inc., looks a little unwelcoming IMHO and if I had to take a guess I bet he telling Tom & Mary all about how the DZ will hurt his business if it's allowed on the Taunton Municipal Airport.

It will be interesting see how this moves forward, I hope Tom & Mary will not have the usual harassment to deal with and be welcomed to the Taunton Municipal Airport.

Maybe Tom can/will chime in here and let us know how the meeting really went. Best of luck to you Tom & Mary in this process.

http://www.tauntongazette.com/news/x735289335/Baystate-Skydiving-center-hoping-to-establish-a-location-at-Taunton-Municipal-Airport

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Baksteen 84]

I lost interest at "99% tandem".

I'm sorry, but I don't think tandem factories have much to do with regular skydiving. They provide a carnival ride, is all.

But perhaps I'm missing a bigger picture.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[DSE 3]

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I lost interest at "99% tandem".

I'm sorry, but I don't think tandem factories have much to do with regular skydiving. They provide a carnival ride, is all.

But perhaps I'm missing a bigger picture.

It's all part of the revenue stream. Tandems become skydivers, tandem factories employ skydivers. A successful tandem business may grow into more than just tandems.
Without tandems, skydiving would all but dry up and blow away in many regions of the country.

[stratostar 5]

Have you ever tried to start a dropzone? Do you think your 24 dollar jump ticket is going to pay for the hanger space to pack your pretty little parachute in, or fund the MX on the airplane or the marketing, or student rigs, or all the other over head that goes into operations?

The answer is no it will not! So anyone who wishes to get started must start with a large pile of money or start small and build it up to a thriving business that can afford to allow you to jump for 24 bucks.

Did you notice the future dzo asking the crowd if there would be anyone having an issue with a larger AC? A larger AC would mean future plans for up jumpers, most likely.

Besides that, this is a USA issue and has no effect on your country. In this country we have many ongoing airport access issues at play, a victory for one operator is a victory for all skydivers! Type of student training has noting to do with it.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Andy9o8 0]

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I lost interest at "99% tandem".

I'm sorry, but I don't think tandem factories have much to do with regular skydiving. They provide a carnival ride, is all.

But perhaps I'm missing a bigger picture.

Indeed you are. (In addition to the above points,) if it's easy for NIMBYs to run a tandem DZ off an airport, no DZ will be safe from attack. As the old saying goes, "freedom isn't free". So for everyone's sake every one of these attacks has to be fought.

[TomNoonan 1]

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Looks like Tom Noonan might have the next airport access fight, brewing....?

Mary and I have been involved in an airport access issue in Gilford, NH since July 2008. Now THAT was (still is) an airport access issue.

This airport proposal isn't an airport access issue at all. Everyone we have worked with has been completely supportive and 100% professional.

We offered to meet with the airport users to let them have an open forum to ask questions and express concerns they might have. It was a great meeting, and even the small handful of pilots that we may not have "won over" were cordial and willing to engage us in a dialogue. We could not be happier about the outcome of the meeting.

As for the "99% tandem operation", you have to look at that in the correct context. It was a fairly accurate statement based on the availability of turbines in the New England area. We simply told the pilots at th emeeting the truth as we foresaw fun jumping. As we personally know most of the skydivers in MA, NH and Maine, we hoped/thought that most everyone we were friends with would come down and make a skydive with us and say hello over the course of the season, but that due to jump ticket costs, for a fun jumper to ride a 182 or a 206 to 10,000ft that we would be flying, vs a Twin Otter to 13,500ft at one of the 3 larger "destination" turbine dropzones in New England, that sport jumpers would in all likelyhood spend their fun jumping $$ on turbines.

Mary and I are both AFF instructors and look forward to training students there, but the reality is that the close proximity to Boston will inevitably give the dropzone a tandem heavy volume. I don't mind the heavy tandem volume though, as for anyone that knows me, knows that tandems are my #1 passion in the sport, they have brought me around the world and to the top of the world, so for me tandems are "fun jumps".

So before this heads down the "they are opening a tandem mill" direction......lol, please understand that both Mary and I are dedicated to giving back to the sport and protecting/promoting it's future.

With what few hurdles we have had to overcome in this process, the easiest one to avoid would have been to simply concede to agree to be a "tandem only" facility, and we refused that suggestion wholeheartedly. We want to create jobs for locals by training them to become our future skydiving instructors and we look forward to seeing our friends stop by and make fun jumps with us when they are in the area.

We have a few other exciting ideas that we plan to build off of this project as well. Ideas that will allow us to continue to promote the sport.

If anyone has any specific questions, as always, please feel free to email me at [email protected].

Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

[stratostar 5]

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This airport proposal isn't an airport access issue at all. Everyone we have worked with has been completely supportive and 100% professional.

and

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We could not be happier about the outcome of the meeting.

Well that is great to hear, for once someone is not getting hassled and the locals are at least willing to be cordial and talk with you. When this came up on a Google search, and I read the story, it had the feel of "here we go again".

Thanks for filling us in, and I wish you & Mary all the best in your building this dz.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Austintxflight 0]

I'm fine with a Tandem mill, as long as its not a puppy mill.

The way I look at it, every tandem has a chance of becoming a regular fun jumper, its a small percentage but its there. Even if it ends up at the other New England DZs with turbines.

So I see it like when a fish has thousands of babies, they don't all survive, but some do and go on to do great things, maybe have fishes of our own.

So go forth, tandem on and create a skydiving nursery so the rest of us have new jumpers to jump with!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

You have my vote if you don't do business with Skyride.

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

As for the "99% tandem operation", you have to look at that in the correct context. It was a fairly accurate statement based on the availability of turbines in the New England area. We simply told the pilots at th emeeting the truth as we foresaw fun jumping. As we personally know most of the skydivers in MA, NH and Maine, we hoped/thought that most everyone we were friends with would come down and make a skydive with us and say hello over the course of the season, but that due to jump ticket costs, for a fun jumper to ride a 182 or a 206 to 10,000ft that we would be flying, vs a Twin Otter to 13,500ft at one of the 3 larger "destination" turbine dropzones in New England, that sport jumpers would in all likelyhood spend their fun jumping $$ on turbines.

Thanks for the explanation. Please note that the following is not directed at you personally.

I've got some great feedbak in reply to my rather cynical post. However, I disagree that this is a "US only" issue.
Too many skydivers look no further than their own DZ - or worse, no further than their next jump. Airport/airspace access issues are, unfortunately, not unique to one single country. Here in the Netherlands, we already lost one DZ due to airspace problems, while my own is doing its damndest to try and hang on, despite the fact that we can only exit from 6000 ft maximum. That means of course no AFF, no Tandem and only limited RW and FF. In result, we have to focus on Static-line as our main source of income, WITHOUT compromising the quality of the training every student gets. With more and more experienced people leaving for other DZs, we have our work cut out for us.

Point is, we're still training students. Your average tandem factory has got nothing to do with skydiving. Their sole purpose is making money by providing a service. And while it's true that some tandem passengers progress to AFF/SL and become skydivers, most are really along for the ride.
So while I completely agree that tandems are a crucial source of revenue (especially for a turbine DZ), I feel that on a DZ that's only about tandems, the chances that such a tandem passenger will continue to be a skydiver are (IMO) almost zero. This is simply because they don't see actual skydiving. Most whuffos have no clue about skydiving, especially about how to become a skydiver.

So I'm sorry to say, if an "airport/airspace" lawsuit has to be fought with support from an organiusation such as USPA, I'd rather see them chip in for a DZ which is about fun jumpers than about tandems.
(And no; that's not a way of saying that my club needs to be given money for such a lawsuit. There is a very different legal culture over here.)

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[TomNoonan 1]

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You have my vote if you don't do business with Skyride.

Thank you Chris.

We will not be part of the Skyride program at our dropzone.

I have a marketing degree from back when I was studying/working in the outside world.....lol and I am really excited about the marketing plan we came up with and where we will draw our customers from and how we plan to reach them.

Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

[stratostar 5]

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So I'm sorry to say, if an "airport/airspace" lawsuit has to be fought with support from an organiusation such as USPA, I'd rather see them chip in for a DZ which is about fun jumpers than about tandems.

First of all, USPA don't hand out money to dz's fighting access issues. In order of a case to be awarded AAD funds from USPA, the case has to meet some rules, the biggest is "national impact".

The last case to get funding is a good example.

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USPA staff members had been looking for the right airport access issue to test the FAA’s “attainable” language and were convinced they had found it with the Skydive Sacramento case. The USPA Board of Directors agreed and, at its February 2010 meeting, voted to support Skydive Sacramento’s Part 16 complaint with an allocation from the USPA Airport Access Defense Fund, which ultimately totaled $9,000.

This case has now changed the way airports can no longer bully around an operator with huge insurance requirements you can not get in order to operate on the airport, it changed the playing field on a national level. If your case can't meet this kind of national impact then you'll get no money form USPA.

As a side note, the owner of Skydive Sacramento, spent a small fortune of his own money to win this and the 9K from USPA was like walking down the street and finding a five dollar bill, in other words a drop in the bucket.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Skwrl 56]

Tom,

Fantastic news!

I'm glad to hear it's going forward. When you factor in traffic to the Cape, Tauton's a great location!

It does have a fair amount of air traffic, though, for an un-towered airport. (I landed there a few times in the course of working on my private pilot's license.) I assume you've got plans to manage that risk... Properly done, a "near Boston" tandem shop could do well.

Oh, and for those who slam "tandem mills" - I got my start as a skydiver at a tandem mill... After 3 tandems, I knew I was hooked and moved on to an AFF program at a different DZ. They serve different populations, but people like Tom and Mary who have a positive attitude about skydiving can make a tandem mill that will result in a lot more people picking up AFF...

-Jeff

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[Baksteen 84]

Thanks for that, I stand corrected.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

Oh, and for those who slam "tandem mills" - I got my start as a skydiver at a tandem mill... After 3 tandems, I knew I was hooked and moved on to an AFF program at a different DZ. They serve different populations, but people like Tom and Mary who have a positive attitude about skydiving can make a tandem mill that will result in a lot more people picking up AFF...

I have no beef with the DZ in question, or the people trying to open it.
However, "those who slam tandem mills" ()wonder how much actual guidance you got during those tandems.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[stratostar 5]

Not a problem, a lot of people don't understand how the AAD fund works.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[stratostar 5]

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As a side note, the owner of Skydive Sacramento, spent a small fortune of his own money to win this and the 9K from USPA was like walking down the street and finding a five dollar bill, in other words a drop in the bucket.

It would seem some people have gotten bent out of shape about my personal thoughts on this comment I posted, so I would like to clear up for everyone what I'm trying to say.

Is 9 grand a great deal of money? Yes it is , did help the dzo, yes it did! But in the over all deal, it was most likely a drop in the bucket of what it cost this guy to fight for 4 or more years. Based on what I have read he had to buy property to land on in order to run his business on top of legal fees. I personally have no idea how much he spent, nor do I care. I assume it was a hell of a lot and the USPA award was just a drop in the bucket of his total expense.

Am I saying the USPA AAD fund is a joke or not helpful to dz's who are awarded the help.... NO I'm not, I think it is a good deal for all USPA members, I think it is an important function of our group, the biggest point I was trying to make is many people think the fund is the save all for anyone who is seeking airport access or getting kick off an airport. I'm not an expert in the matter, I'm learning as best I can how all this works, I have an interest in how other cases work out, I believe it effects all skydivers on a national level.

I don't represent the USPA, I don't represent the FAA, I speak for none of those people working there! I speak for myself in a forum, like ,many others here I sometimes get it wrong or my post are not made clear enough for some people to understand, that is why we talk about it in a civil manner. If anyone has a problem with my posts or what I have to say about any topic on dropzone.com then take it up with me, my PM's are not blocked like some users.

Hope that clears up it for everyone who has a problem with my statements, good day.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[stratostar 5]

http://www.tauntongazette.com/news/x715342091/DIVING-IN-Couple-close-to-opening-skydiving-school-in-Taunton-Airport

Right on Tom Congrats on this major step forward.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[JohnRich 4]

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http://www.tauntongazette.com/news/x715342091/DIVING-IN-Couple-close-to-opening-skydiving-school-in-Taunton-Airport

Quote:

"The site surveys will also look to ensure that proper radio distances are met"

What does "radio distance" mean?

[TomNoonan 1]

"radio distances"? C'mon John.....those are the distances for the radios.....duh. lol

I don't know if I have completely lost my Boston accent living down here in Florida for so long, or if it was just a bad connection on my cell phone, but I said "radial distances" to objects. Given the reporter is probably not a skydiver, I am guessing that when I said "radial" he heard "radio".

Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

[JohnRich 4]

Re: "Radio/Radial distances"

Thanks for that explanation Tom, and congrats on your preliminary approval.

I was passing through Taunton one day many years ago, and stopped in for a jump there. It'll be nice to see it active for jumping again.

[TomNoonan 1]

Just wanted to provide a quick update:

I walked onto the airport Friday after Thanksgiving, November 2011. During the next 16 weeks, I flew back once a month to Boston from Deland, met with the airport commission, then the pilots, then the neighbors, and then finally 16 weeks in, I sat in the gallery of the monthly airport commission meeting as they voted to give the Bay State Skydiving Center a tentative approval, pending an FAA site survey.

I flew back in April to meet with the FAA on the airport to do a site survey and was thrilled to be sitting across a table from some of the most knowledgable and professional FAA personnel I have ever met.

A few weeks later, mid May, and that was it, with the full backing of the FAA and their endorsement of the airfield, the airport commission voted unanimously to bring Bay State Skydiving Center onto the airfield at KTAN in Taunton, MA.

Approximately six months from the first day that I showed up on the airport, we made our first staff jumps onto the airport last weekend. Local pilots and neighbors stopped by to wish us well as we packed our parachutes, and this weekend represents the official opening of the Bay State Skydiving Center.

It's been an educational experience the last four years. And I am still holding out hope that some day in the near future that Skydive Laconia will see the light of day, but until that day arrives, I am content to know that USPA continues to lead the charge on airport access issues.

Randy Ottinger and Ed Scott continue to do an amazing job working with the FAA to keep us skydiving. I got to witness that first hand. Thanks guys.

Time for me to go skydiving at my new dropzone.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom

www.facebook.com/baystateskydiving

and if anyone is interested in reading about a pretty fierce airport access debate that has lasted 4 years and received 65,000 page views, here is a link to a thread that will have you shaking your head over what some people think of our sport:

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7143

Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

[sundevil777 93]

There is plenty to complain about concerning the USPA, so it is nice to be reminded how they are able to be so valuable in some very important ways.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[stratostar 5]

Most members have little to no clue how much crap Randy Ottinger deals with every day in regards to keeping us skydiving or getting new places on the map.

As Tom can tell you, it takes chest waders & a snorkel.

@ Tom, congrats on your new dz, nice to hear a non hassle access story for a change.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[wmw999 2,121]

If anyone ever wants to see an absolutely stellar example of grace under pressure, take a look at the thread that Tom links.

My family has some property in NH (SW), so I read locally, and read about this some much closer to when it was happening.

Folks -- this is where your airport access dollars to USPA are going. To support businesses trying to make it.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)