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D_mented1

16 yo tandem

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does anyone know of a dz that will tandem a 16 yo.
it baby girls 16 birthday soon and shes been bugging me for years for a tandem we live in south east tx and shes making me ask around running me nutts thanks for your help.



West Tennessee Skydiving will do it and follow all USPA & FAA Rules and Regulations.

http://www.SkydiveKingAir.com

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Skydive Lodi will take up 16-year-olds
$100 for the first jump too. Man, what a bargain!

Wanna see the video of what a $100 tandem looks like?

My real advice? Don't be looking for exceptions to rules below the norms. Anything having to do with aviation is pretty unforgiving of mistakes.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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The age rule has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the screwed up legal system in the U.S.



Well, that's where you're wrong.

Yes, 100% of the reason behind the rule is to protect the USPA Member drop zones and tandem rig manufacturers from litigation.

I will challenge you, however, that drop zones that do not follow the USPA Member rules are as safe as those that do. Most of the time they're not USPA Member drop zones because they want to skirt certain rules for a business advantage. If a DZ's attitude is to attempt to skirt industry-wide standard practices, then it logically follows they attempt to skirt other rules as well.

It's indicative of how a business is run.

And in the case of certain drop zones, this isn't opinion; it's historic fact.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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My real advice? Don't be looking for exceptions to rules below the norms. Anything having to do with aviation is pretty unforgiving of mistakes.


Whose "norms", Europe and Australia the "NORM" is 16 years is fine, in fact we do AFF here in OZ with 16 year olds.

There are quite a few places in the US that have a "norm" of doing Tandems with 16 year olds.

Hope you find one close enough fort your daughter:)
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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The age rule has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the screwed up legal system in the U.S.



If a DZ's attitude is to attempt to skirt industry-wide standard practices, then it logically follows they attempt to skirt other rules as well.

It's indicative of how a business is run.

And in the case of certain drop zones, this isn't opinion; it's historic fact.

Again the "industry-wide standard practices" are NOT what you say they are.
The "INDUSTRY" is bigger than you back yard.
Go surf Google and find out for yourself.:P
And stop sprouting Bullshit opinion as Fact.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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The age rule has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the screwed up legal system in the U.S.



Well, that's where you're wrong.

Yes, 100% of the reason behind the rule is to protect the USPA Member drop zones and tandem rig manufacturers from litigation.

I will challenge you, however, that drop zones that do not follow the USPA Member rules are as safe as those that do. Most of the time they're not USPA Member drop zones because they want to skirt certain rules for a business advantage. If a DZ's attitude is to attempt to skirt industry-wide standard practices, then it logically follows they attempt to skirt other rules as well.

It's indicative of how a business is run.

And in the case of certain drop zones, this isn't opinion; it's historic fact.



I'm not addressing all the rules, just the age rule. That's what this thread is about. You would think a mod could stay on topic.:D

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The age rule has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the screwed up legal system in the U.S.



Well, that's where you're wrong.

Yes, 100% of the reason behind the rule is to protect the USPA Member drop zones and tandem rig manufacturers from litigation.

I will challenge you, however, that drop zones that do not follow the USPA Member rules are as safe as those that do. Most of the time they're not USPA Member drop zones because they want to skirt certain rules for a business advantage. If a DZ's attitude is to attempt to skirt industry-wide standard practices, then it logically follows they attempt to skirt other rules as well.

It's indicative of how a business is run.

And in the case of certain drop zones, this isn't opinion; it's historic fact.



It is perfectly legal for a 16 year old to do a Tandem Jump (or AFF or SL) at a USPA Group Member DZ. Has been USPA legal for 16 year olds to jump for at least 55 years. Of course, any DZ may set the age limit above 16 as they see fit.

Mike Mullins

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Quade, the 2 aren't related. Yes I would agree that most non-affiliated dz's need to be assessed carefully. However the age limit has nothing to do with safety. If it did then like the BPA there would be an upper age limit as well. It has everything to do with the US legal system.

As squeak said, most of the world it is 16.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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My real advice? Don't be looking for exceptions to rules below the norms. Anything having to do with aviation is pretty unforgiving of mistakes.


Whose "norms", Europe and Australia the "NORM" is 16 years is fine, in fact we do AFF here in OZ with 16 year olds.



Pretty sure he wasn't interested in flying to Australia to do this. Pretty sure he wanted advice for his home country. :S
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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My real advice? Don't be looking for exceptions to rules below the norms. Anything having to do with aviation is pretty unforgiving of mistakes.


Whose "norms", Europe and Australia the "NORM" is 16 years is fine, in fact we do AFF here in OZ with 16 year olds.



Pretty sure he wasn't interested in flying to Australia to do this. Pretty sure he wanted advice for his home country. :S

Exactly, and the way you portray it is that if the DZ does not follow YOUR ideal version of what the "norm" is then they are putting their daughter at greater jeopardy allowing them to jump at a USA DZ at age 16. This is just not true, as I said it's YOUR bullshit opinion, sprouted by you as fact.

It's just plain wrong, a 16 year old tandem passenger is at no more risk than an 18 year old. Provided the harness fits correctly there is NO safety issue with the age.
So stop posting shit.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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Squeak, I realize this is going to come as a shock to you, but the fact is, you have no idea what I'm even talking about in this case and no, not all drop zones in the US that offer 16 year olds are places I would recommend to anyone, not even my enemies.

Some are actual blights on the sport, but of course, you have no idea what I'm talking about since you believe you know what is normal based on your experiences of things very far away in the land down under. I can forgive that, but it's your arrogance and condescension in assuming the entire world works the way it does for you personally is what is most infuriating.

Stop giving advice for places you have no idea about.

Again, nobody is asking about how things work in OZ and stop trying to project your bullshit on to me. I'm kinda tired of you and it.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Squeak, I realize this is going to come as a shock to you, but the fact is, you have no idea what I'm even talking about in this case and no, not all drop zones in the US that offer 16 year olds are places I would recommend to anyone, not even my enemies.

Some are actual blights on the sport, but of course, you have no idea what I'm talking about since you believe you know what is normal based on your experiences of things very far away in the land down under. I can forgive that, but it's your arrogance and condescension in assuming the entire world works the way it does for you personally is what is most infuriating.

Stop giving advice for places you have no idea about.

Again, nobody is asking about how things work in OZ and stop trying to project your bullshit on to me. I'm kinda tired of you and it.

Your comprehension skills seem to be lacking, Im not talking about DZ outside of the USofA and I DO know the DZ you are referring to(which is somewhat removed from Texas, where the OP is).
YOU seem to fail to recognise your own limited ability to be objective. or to see when you are simple wrong.
The guy asked about DZ where he can take his daughter at 16 to do a jump. there are quite a few in the states at which that can happen, YOUR posts would indicate that he is putting his daughter in harms way if he allows ANY USofA DZ to take his 16 yo old on a tandem.


As to this little gem:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:
"but it's your arrogance and condescension in assuming the entire world works the way it does for you personally is what is most infuriating."
I think you will find that this is exactly what your posts would indicate:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:

Im well aware that different places operate under different guidelines. DIFFERENT does in no way equate to less safe.
You dont seem to comprehend that. But that just seems to be one of many things you lack comprehension in.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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does anyone know of a dz that will tandem a 16 yo.
it baby girls 16 birthday soon and shes been bugging me for years for a tandem we live in south east tx and shes making me ask around running me nutts thanks for your help.



Do you think the father wrote this? Or a 16-year-old? An uneducated 16-year-old.
"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

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It is perfectly legal for a 16 year old to do a Tandem Jump (or AFF or SL) at a USPA Group Member DZ. Has been USPA legal for 16 year olds to jump for at least 55 years. Of course, any DZ may set the age limit above 16 as they see fit.

Mike Mullins



Mike,

I know you think you're right, but the USPA BSRs say otherwise (which would be important if a drop zone is claiming to "follow all USPA & FAA Rules and Regulations."). Specifically, 2-1 D. It says;
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D. Age requirements

1. Skydivers are to be at least either:

a. 18 years of age [FB]

b. 16 years of age with notarized parental or guardian consent [FB]


Source: http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section2/tabid/164/Default.aspx#21d

That [FB] means it's waiverable, but only by the Full Board, not the individual drop zones themselves.
Source: http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section2/tabid/164/Default.aspx#22b

And that's not opinion, that's fact, chapter and verse.

So, how many USPA Group Member drop zones have been granted generic, always in effect, under 16 waivers by the full board?

Now, a non-USPA Group Member drop zone? Sure it's "legal" for them to do just about any damn thing they want, except they're not exactly being 100% truthful if they claim they "follow all USPA & FAA Rules and Regulations" and manage to skip that one.

As for what is "legal" vs standard industry practice . . . it's "legal" for a 5-year-old student to do a solo night jump from 3000 feet as their first jump with no more instruction than "cya" and a nudge out the door (go ahead, search FAR 105 all day long, I'll wait) . . . but I don't know anybody who thinks that's standard industry practice.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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I'm no lawyer but doesn't the part:

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1. Skydivers are to be at least either:

a. 18 years of age [FB]

b. 16 years of age with notarized parental or guardian consent [FB]



mean that you need to be at least 18 to skydive, or have a waiver to do it before 18. Or you need to be at least 16 to skydive with parental consent or have a waiver to skydive before 16 without parental consent.

So, simply,

no parental consent -> at least 18 or with a FB waiver less.
parental consent -> at least 16 or with a FB waiver less.
Your rights end where my feelings begin.

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What it means is;

18 and over, no problem.

Below 18, the drop zone will have a waiver granted by the full board of USPA directors.

Additionally, at 16 (or possibly below) you'll need a notarized parental or guardian consent and the previously mentioned waiver.

Generally speaking, those waivers are going to be issued on a case-by-case basis for extraordinary circumstances; think Make-A-Wish terminal illness last wishes. The purpose of the waivers is to allow extraordinary circumstances; not routine jumps.

Or at least that's how it was "sold" to the USPA by the folks that lobbied for it. That was the intent of the rules when passed. Feel free to search the web site for previous discussions on the matter.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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What it means is;

18 and over, no problem.

Below 18, the drop zone will have a waiver granted by the full board of USPA directors.

Additionally, at 16 (or possibly below) you'll need a notarized parental or guardian consent and the previously mentioned waiver.

Generally speaking, those waivers are going to be issued on a case-by-case basis for extraordinary circumstances; think Make-A-Wish terminal illness last wishes. The purpose of the waivers is to allow extraordinary circumstances; not routine jumps.

Or at least that's how it was "sold" to the USPA by the folks that lobbied for it. That was the intent of the rules when passed. Feel free to search the web site for previous discussions on the matter.



Quade, you're wrong!

Now stop arguing, this is your one warning!
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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Quade, you're wrong!



I welcome any and all USPA documentation proving your statement. Go for it.



Someone else already posted it but just to reiterate:

D. Age requirements

1. Skydivers are to be at least EITHER:

a. 18 years of age [FB]
b. 16 years of age with notarized parental or
guardian consent [FB]

As Mullins already said, a 16 or 17 y/o skydiver who has notarized parental consent does not need to get a waiver as it is already expressly allowed within the BSRs.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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that's how it was "sold" to the USPA by the folks that lobbied for it



The fact that USPA would cater to such demands to stupid to start with, for the simple fact that 16yr olds have been making first jumps for many years in all forms of progression. (pre & post TDM) I was one of many of them, starting in 1983. And I know a great deal of jumpers who started at age 14, it was not all that uncommon.

Our guidance (BSR's) should reflect or be more in line with the FAA policies on flight training by age, end of story.

You want others to provide facts about USPA.... I have yet to see a list of all the lawsuits that have been filed in the USA by a minors parent after signing the weaver, or minors who turn into legal adults, and then sue a dz for allowing them to jump with notarized parental or guardian consent. I'm betting that there are very few cases of this happening. Has it in the past, I'm sure there have been a few..... as in VERY FEW!

There is no reason a mature (not all are @ 16) youth should not be allowed to make a jump via S/L or AFF or for that matter a tandem jump. In fact I favor allowing the minimum age for a S/L jump to be 14 yrs old, the same as it is for solo flight in a sailplane!

The fact that USPA made this change a few meetings ago to cater to equipment mfg's is total bullshit IMHO and USPA needs to get back to being focused on the membership and not a dzo trade org. and maybe start trying to lobby in DC for a change in the legal outlook on skydiving, much like a ski area is protected by law if your 14 or 16 yr old hits a tree and dies or is a cripple for life..... It's a known risk all willing except when they buy a lift ticket and is protected by law.

With all the skydiving lawyers we have around I would think maybe if they all got together and joined forces with the BOD, maybe we could see that legal issue solved. Oh but it's much too easy to just pass a BSR and solve the problem that way.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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