Newbie DZ/Instructor questions?

[doubleplay 0]

I did and passed my first three levels of AFF at a big name DZ on the West Coast. I enjoyed the experience and planning to carry on with the remaining levels and eventually getting my A license. The place I did my training is one of the busiest DZ's around and have a ton of tandem passengers every day. Except the initial ground training and first jump, every other jump I did (B and C) was with different instructors who were also jumping as tandem instructors while I was waiting for my load. It felt a little bit rushed even though at no point I felt unsafe. Second and last jump(C) of the second day my reserve side instructor landed from camera work, dropped his container grabbed a new one barely made it to our load still trying to adjust his container? Is this normal?
I would much prefer getting to know my instructor and stay with him throughout the training.
Now I'm back on the East Coast I'm looking for a DZ where I'll be doing rest of my training and get my A license. Distance is not a problem and I'm willing to travel for the right place. Should I look for smaller DZ's where I can get more personal attention? Thanks for the suggestions.

[Amyr 0]

WITH OUT A DOUBT where you are on the East coast if you want the one on one attention and support Carolina Skydiving in North Carolina

[FreefallSnoopy 0]

I did my training at The Jumping Place in St. Mary's GA. Podunk town, but 3 instructors. They all love to teach and really spend time with you on the dive plan and how to pass your levels. I only had 2 instructors with me for the entire AFF course, alternating on who was available from tandem to go up with me. The fun jumpers that rotate through there can be very helpful too. I had 2 individuals make jumps with me for A license check offs and didn't even expect me to pay for their lift tickets! (though next time I can get in, I definitely will buy them a couple).

Just a heads up though, being a smaller DZ you sometimes hafta fight to get on manifest with those 182's.

[nigel99 143]

I think it is a wise move to change dz. First off, for most of us skydiving is a substantial investment and being short changed through lack of attention is poor customer service. We can't always have our preferred instructor, but they SHOULD give you proper time and attention.

Secondly I believe it makes unsafe jumpers. Getting your A license is only partly about jumps. A significant amount of ground schooling should be involved and the type of environment you describe makes that virtually impossible. It is good practice to dirt dive jumps, that should start during AFF and stay with you forever. Having instructors rush and grab you just prior to boarding sets a bad example, and results in the kind of jumps that go wrong.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[wildcard451 0]

As long as the main side instructor had done all the proper dirt diving, training, etc, there is nothing at all unsafe about the reserve side meeting them at the plane if he just landed from a jump.

If you want more personal attention, then that is fine. Find somewhere that is willing to cater to you. Don't be surprised if it costs more though, since they aren't turning as many student (likely). Also, don't be surprised when you get your A license and realize that the plane isn't gonna wait for you because you wanted some more "personal time".

/in no way trying to be a dick/

[nigel99 143]

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As long as the main side instructor had done all the proper dirt diving, training, etc, there is nothing at all unsafe about the reserve side meeting them at the plane if he just landed from a jump.

If you want more personal attention, then that is fine. Find somewhere that is willing to cater to you. Don't be surprised if it costs more though, since they aren't turning as many student (likely). Also, don't be surprised when you get your A license and realize that the plane isn't gonna wait for you because you wanted some more "personal time".

/in no way trying to be a dick/

IF the main side is giving proper attention then it might be ok. But on your first couple of AFF levels simply getting your head around the exit procedure (check in etc) can help having everyone involved. I know my wife really struggled to get her head around the whole hotel check procedure. I can guarantee you if she had not had quality instruction she would have freaked out by not practising this prior to exit.

I'm not sure that personal attention would necessarily cost you more - it may even be cheaper. If you have to repeat an AFF level because of inadequate time spent with you, it has cost you more.

Edit to add. I don't necessarily mean the reserve side not being involved is unsafe. To me that is simply less than ideal treatment of a student. What I do think is unsafe is forfeiting dirt diving to get the next load. Sure it is probably fine when it is people you know and you are experienced. But as a general rule, time spent preparing for a jump is time well spent.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[tdog 0]

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the second day my reserve side instructor landed from camera work, dropped his container grabbed a new one barely made it to our load still trying to adjust his container? Is this normal?

I also teach/jump/have fun at a DZ where this happens. During the jump day things do get rushed, especially on busy days. But:

1) At any time a student shows signs of needing a slowdown - or asks for a slowdown - we slowdown.

2) Once the beer light comes on, those students who stick around, often find themselves laughing, smiling, and sharing food with said instructors at the local eating establishment or in the hangar with the beer brought in by someone else who thought it nice to share.


At the other end of the scale - you could end up at a very small DZ that has a single Cessna, where you will be waiting 45 minutes per plane ride, with two instructors, thus only jumping once in the day, etc... You may or may not get any more time between plane loads... You may be doing static line... You may not have as many people around to find one or two you really like... Pros and cons to each scenario.

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I would much prefer getting to know my instructor and stay with him throughout the training.

I have been to a lot of DZs, and it seems that if this is your goal, you need to stick around after the jump day and make friends. You just might find yourself a year later traveling nationally/internationally with one of these instructors to a real cool place to jump together as friends... Or be invited to their wedding or something like that. It does happen.

[rss_v 0]

Good replies so far. I'm a new jumper and during my AFF course it did feel a bit rushed and fragmented at times. I can count around six instructors who were involved in my ground training, briefings and jumps. Often I was passed between them and received contradictory information, which was never good. For example, being briefed by one instructor for a level to be taken with a different instructor, then having to try to unlearn specific details about the jump and over-write them with the new info my actual jump instructor provides afterwards. That kind of thing annoyed me. I think each level must really be briefed by the ACTUAL instructor who will jump with the student, because they all do things slightly differently and trying to drill a new plan in over the top of another one you just hammered into your head, is really tiring and confusing.

That sort of thing would be my only criticism of my DZ's AFF provision, I suppose. All of the instructors are great and I felt that they were very capable, but it was at times a bit rushed and with very little time for good debriefing afterwards, too.

[davelepka 4]

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every other jump I did (B and C) was with different instructors

Good. Everyone has strong points and weak points, so if you learn from one instructor, yours will match theirs. Jump with a variety of instructors and you'll pick up something different from each one.

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I'm back on the East Coast I'm looking for a DZ where I'll be doing rest of my training and get my A license. Distance is not a problem and I'm willing to travel for the right place.

Look for DZs close to home, for several reasons. One of them being that traveling to get your license brings in pressure to get it done while you're there. If you get a couple weather days, or struggle on a jump or two, you start to fall behind schedule and than you have that pressure on your mind. If you jump close to home, you can go home if you hit a snag and retrun the next day or weekend for nothing more than the price of gas.

Another thought is that it's good to make some 'friends' at the place you'll be spending most of your time once you have a licesne. By bringing your business to the DZ, you'll get to know the staff and then when you inevitably need help or advice after you have your licesne, they'll be there for you. Instead of being the unknown 'new guy' looking for help, you're 'Bill, who did all his training here, looking for help'.

See what the local DZs look like. Maybe take a drive to each of them on a jump day and see what the operations look like. Talk to the staff about continuing your training and ask about their program, pricing, and where you would start off with your previous experience.

[Fast 0]

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every other jump I did (B and C) was with different instructors

Good. Everyone has strong points and weak points, so if you learn from one instructor, yours will match theirs. Jump with a variety of instructors and you'll pick up something different from each one.

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I'm back on the East Coast I'm looking for a DZ where I'll be doing rest of my training and get my A license. Distance is not a problem and I'm willing to travel for the right place.

Look for DZs close to home, for several reasons. One of them being that traveling to get your license brings in pressure to get it done while you're there. If you get a couple weather days, or struggle on a jump or two, you start to fall behind schedule and than you have that pressure on your mind. If you jump close to home, you can go home if you hit a snag and retrun the next day or weekend for nothing more than the price of gas.

Another thought is that it's good to make some 'friends' at the place you'll be spending most of your time once you have a licesne. By bringing your business to the DZ, you'll get to know the staff and then when you inevitably need help or advice after you have your licesne, they'll be there for you. Instead of being the unknown 'new guy' looking for help, you're 'Bill, who did all his training here, looking for help'.

See what the local DZs look like. Maybe take a drive to each of them on a jump day and see what the operations look like. Talk to the staff about continuing your training and ask about their program, pricing, and where you would start off with your previous experience.

This advice.

Along with the the fact that if it's a 2,4,6,etc hour drive to the dropzone it will be counterproductive. The closer a DZ that you can find that you're comfortable at, the more likely you will decide to head there on a questionable weather day or over something else, the less gas you will spend, the more jumps you can make before having to leave for your drive home, etc etc etc.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[rss_v 0]

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every other jump I did (B and C) was with different instructors

Good. Everyone has strong points and weak points, so if you learn from one instructor, yours will match theirs. Jump with a variety of instructors and you'll pick up something different from each one.

I don't think this is valid for the very first stages of someone's skydiving training. At that stage, the first few jumps - basically your AFF course - I think consistency and continuity is essential and having loads of different points of view, techniques and ideas coming at you from different instructors is only confusing, not helpful. There are already a million things for a new AFF student to remember - adding another million doesn't produce a better student or a better "graduate" - just one who is less certain of what is right or best, and less confident.

Later on, yes, definitely - one can look for ideas from other sources, but for complete newcomers it's a great way to end up with "paralysis by analysis" and start mixing things up. Ideally an instructor and his course will provide the student with a coherent and compatible collection of skills and knowledge. A different instructor might provide a different but equally-correct collection, when taken as a whole. But when you mix them together, taking some from one and some from the other, you lose the whole point of it and no longer can the student be sure if it all fits together and works as intended.

[davelepka 4]

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I don't think this is valid for the very first stages of someone's skydiving training

And you would be incorrect in your thinking. There's a difference between strenghts and weaknesses and consistancy in a program.

Every member of a DZ staff should be working off of a standard program where all the dives are taught with the same flows and the same procedures from all instructors. This is essential for the very reason you stated, so as not to confuse the students.

However, that's not related to the teaching styles or personalities of different instructors. What do you like, funny or serious? What do you respond to, casual and easy-going or more business-like? Who are you more open to take instruction from, a man or a woman? An older person or a younger person? Do you learn visually or more through spoken word?

Every instructor will have some of the above qualities and lack others, and what works 'best' is dependant on the student and what they respond to. In addition to the factors I already mentioned, the more people you work with, the more 'eyes' there are on your training. If one instructor miises a clue that you don't really 'get' one aspect or another, the next instructor might be more in-tune to your understaning (or mis-understanding) of one concept or another.

I could teach you everything you need to know to get your A license, but then you'll only know what I told you and how I told you to do it. Another instructor may have a different take on things, and that take might 'click' better in your brain, but if you stick with me through your entire program, you'll never find that out.

Keep in mind that 90% of the time he first instructor you're paired up with is solely dependent on who's available when you're ready to jump. Billy is doing a tandem, Susie is shooting a video, but Jimmy isn't doing anything on the next load, so Jimmy is your AFF I. Nobody is thinking about teaching styles, learning styles or personality matches, it's just a crap shoot as to who you get. To suggest that you got the best person for the job the frist time out seems unlikely.

(An exception to that is very large or very small students, then they're paired up with instructors who match their expected fall rate. It might not be a good idea to put a 200+lb AFF I with a 97lb student, it would be a smarter move to look for a lighter AFF I for that jump).

[hillson 0]

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I don't think this is valid for the very first stages of someone's skydiving training. At that stage, the first few jumps - basically your AFF course - I think consistency and continuity is essential and having loads of different points of view

As a new jumper myself I'm going to have to disagree with this - particularly as the training is supposed to be "program-based" and not "personality-based." My FJC course was taught by one person, CAT A & B by other folks (they were the same but that was simply luck of the draw) and then it was "you put your name on the board" and off you go.

Consistency and continuity are found by following the prescribed dive flows, review of the previous instructor's comments in the log book and the ground prep etc. Besides, regardless of who I was with the comments were pretty similar: arch & legs out...

Just my 100 jump chump thoughts...

[jmontaigne 0]

I also trained in ST Mary's and truly like the feel of the small DZ...it feels like a family.

[Scrumpot 1]

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I don't think this is valid for the very first stages of someone's skydiving training

And you would be incorrect in your thinking. There's a difference between strenghts and weaknesses and consistancy in a program.

I agree with Dave here. I personally work at a "small" enough DZ (although still turbine ) - that I find when pulling returning student cards for some of the mid-to-advanced categories of AFF - I may have actually even been to that point, on every single jump they'd had - right from Cat-A/jump-1. Although that might make some students feel "comfortable", and I do indeed consider myself a good, competent, thorough instructor - I will none-the-less actually RECOMMEND that student pair-up with another instructor, at least at some time during their progression, if at all possible.

No matter how "good" any one single individual instructor may be, or how "comfortable" it may feel to have that one instructor absolutely all the way through your progression - I do believe that having at least SOME variety, is of benefit, regardless - and can add valuable perspective.

FWIW.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Deisel 35]

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Second and last jump(C) of the second day my reserve side instructor landed from camera work, dropped his container grabbed a new one barely made it to our load still trying to adjust his container? Is this normal?

Yep. That can mean the difference between you making 1 jump or several. Had you waited for both instructors to be available to begin dirt diving, you would not have made the load. As an instructor I hate having to make short calls. I would much prefer to spend some time walking and talking through each jump. But I also hate to watch students sitting on the bench waiting for instructors. So it's either start prepping with one JM or sit around waiting. And remember, the next step is a 1 JM skydive anyway.

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[doubleplay 0]

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As long as the main side instructor had done all the proper dirt diving, training, etc, there is nothing at all unsafe about the reserve side meeting them at the plane if he just landed from a jump.

If you want more personal attention, then that is fine. Find somewhere that is willing to cater to you. Don't be surprised if it costs more though, since they aren't turning as many student (likely). Also, don't be surprised when you get your A license and realize that the plane isn't gonna wait for you because you wanted some more "personal time".

/in no way trying to be a dick/

I guess when you have your A license you jump at your own time not on the instructors time.I'm not asking for "personal time", I'm asking more time with the instructor!
It did not feel right to wait for the instructors when I was ready to go so that they could finish with their tandem jumps and wait for 2-3 loads. I could have get done at least one hour earlier. Also as I stated I did not feel unsafe at anytime otherwise I would not made the jump. I'm a pilot and I know what safety means.
Thanks for the input though.

[rss_v 0]

I get the impression that we're trying to describe the same middle-ground, but coming from different directions and so appearing to disagree.

[popsjumper 2]

I think you guys are missing rss_v's point.

rss_v may correct me if I'm wrong but he is not addressing personality issues in his post.
He is not looking to be "catered to" as one of you put it....how derogatory can you get?
He is not saying that students should only have one instructor throughout training.

His point, IMO, is completely valid and a real-world
problem for students.

Read again what rss_v said:
"I don't think this is valid for the very first stages of someone's skydiving training. At that stage, the first few jumps - basically your AFF course - I think consistency and continuity is essential and having loads of different points of view, techniques and ideas coming at you from different instructors is only confusing, not helpful."

-consistency and continuity is essential -
-different points of view, techniques and ideas coming at you from different instructors-
You guys assume that all instructors teach the same thing in the same way. That is far, far, from the truth. Yes, yes, somebody will pipe in and say, "Not ME!"...expect it.

It is very confusing to students to be told by a second instructor to do something differently than what the first one taught. "Don't do it that way, Do it THIS way."
It's BS and it's usually ego-driven.

That's an entirely different world from adjusting to the students' needs as, "Oh. Maybe that technique is not working for you. Let's try a different one."

We all know there is more than one way to skin a cat here. Teaching students ten different ways at the same time is NOT the way to go about it.

Do you think it would be a better idea to....
- let them get a grip on one technique before you teach them a different one?
or,
- teach them one after another before they even get a handle on the first one.




I suspect you already know all that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

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my reserve side instructor landed from camera work, dropped his container grabbed a new one barely made it to our load still trying to adjust his container? Is this normal?

Sometimes that actually works better!

I remember a student who was distressed by relating to too many folks at once. One instructor had been working with this student extensively on the ground before her level 1 AFF jump. He came to me and said: "This student is easily distracted by too many different folks talking to her. Please meet us at the exit mock-up, limit your talking to safety issues, and jump on reserve side. Otherwise, please let me communicate with her."

I did just that... showed up at the mock-up all geared up, participated in some exit drills, said almost nothing on the plane (although I was attentive when he worked with her in the plane), and made the jump. For this particular student...it was exactly what she needed. The jump was a success with her meeting all the goals, and having a good time.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[nigel99 143]

Dave,
I am in complete agreement that skydivers should travel and be exposed to different dz's. However I don't believe during AFF is the right time, and I'm not certain about traveling prior to your A license.

There is so much information and detail to be taught and teaching consistency is important. I realise that the ISP is suppossed to achieve this, however even subtle differences can cause confusion. I've witnessed an AFF student taught to do turns 1 way, only to have the next instructor say that is all wrong and you must do it differently. The student was more than a little freaked out. I think having a primary instructor for the entire AFF program works best. Here in Australia clubs have a chief instructor and while you may never jump with him, ALL AFF jumps are under his supervision.

Also consider canopy flight, trying to learn accuracy while continually changing equipment and location is going to hurt your progress. As an extreme example (and unusual) we have 2 dropzones here in Perth, 1 uses BOC student gear, the other uses ripcords. I am pretty sure nobody would suggest being exposed to both deployment methods is healthy for an AFF student.

I also agree that being exposed to different instructors is healthy, but I do feel it should be under the oversight of a single person.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[davelepka 4]

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I am in complete agreement that skydivers should travel and be exposed to different dz's. However I don't believe during AFF is the right time, and I'm not certain about traveling prior to your A license

I think what I wrote is being taken the wrong way, and I really didn't see it as being ambiguous.

The OP moved in the middle of his training. He's not travelling, or taking a trip, his residence switched from the west coast to the east coast. Changing DZs in the middle of his training is his reality.

The OP offered that he was willing to travel up or down the east coast to seek the 'best' place to complete his training, to which I replied that he should probably not travel to train, he should look at local DZs for what will potentially become his home DZ once licensed, and train there. It removes the pressure from time and money spent traveling from the training, and it allows him to make personal connections with the instructional staff where he will be jumping.

On the subject of jumping with different instructors, the OP seemed to think it was odd that it was always someone different, and what I pointed out is that jumping with different instructors allows you the benefit of different points of view and different teaching styles.

However, on that same note, I did state that consistancy in the training methods is key. All instructors at a DZ need to use the same dive flows, EPs, hand signals, etc, to allow for consistancy of training.

Here's an example - I recall being a freefall student on one of (maybe my first) freefall training jumps (I started with SL, and then moved to a modified AFF type program). In the aircraft, one of the instructors went over the dive flow with me at about 6k ft, and once that was complete, he suggested I relax and for a minute, and think about, 'Beer and tits, and whatever else you're into'.

To a 19 year old kid, nervous as all hell, this was the right thing to say. It broke the tension, got me to relax, and got the point across. Since that time, I have seen many nervous 19 year old males on the way to altitude, but have seen very few instructors give the same advice I recieved. Had I been with another instructor that day, maybe I wouldn't have gotten that advice, and subsequently never settled my nervous or was able to perform on the jump (I did pass that jump).

If you only jump with one instructor through all your training, you have no idea what else is out there. Maybe your first instructor brings some 'good' out of you, but the guy two seats down the bench jumping with another student might be able to bring the 'great' out of you.

[nigel99 143]

Dave,

Thanks for explaining. Absolutely makes sense.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.