Would you want YOUR skydiving to be 100% safe?

[Namowal 0]

Here's one way to make it much safer (see attachment...)

My blog with the skydiving duck cartoons.

[nigel99 143]

Quote

Quote

if things were 100% safe then everybody would be doing them. Which would reduce the allure of it.

For some.

I couldn't care less if everybody and their granny skydives, as long as I get to keep doing it.

I don't do it because it's dangerous. I sure as hell don't do it because it makes me some kind of elite.

I do it because it's difficult, and beautiful, and because the people I love do it with me.

I voted 'perfectly safe', so they could keep doing it with me until we all die of old age.

Spot on

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[quade 3]

The point is moot.

Skydiving will never be 100% safe.

Not that it isn't a worthy goal, just an ultimately unattainable one.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nigel99 143]

Quote

The point is moot.

Skydiving will never be 100% safe.

Not that it isn't a worthy goal, just an ultimately unattainable one.

Don't know if people read his post, or just the subject? He does say it is hypothetical in his original post. Perhaps better wording would have been "do you jump for the skill or thrill?"

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[skybill 18]

Hi r-v,
What Scratch and Sparky said. We all want "Skydiving" to be 100% safe........that's why we use "Parachutes" when we jump!!! Leave your Parachute on the ground the next time you jump and give me a full report when you land.

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[Tatetatetate 0]

I think this is where we differ completely.

I seek excitement and the life/death edge thrill. Which is why if it was safe it would be boring to me. It is still why I go out and race motorbikes now and again There is a high and very real risk of injury and or death.

This is probably why I get so frustrated at the BPA scene. As it seems more a test of patience than anything else. As what others have said. Sitting around all day drinking tea isn't my thing at all.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Why do you say it is "too safe" already? Look at the incidents record, people are still getting seriously hurt in landing accidents, or hurting others.

I know people find thrill in stretching the limits. That is part of the allure of skydiving. But, if it was made safer, less people could/would get hurt or killed

Those people that you talk about (including yourself) would never have made it into the sport in the first place without the "safety nets" of tandems, AAD's and profit driven DZ's. I love what I do, but find it disappointing how many people I see on a daily basis behave in ways that would have killed them just 20 years ago.

There is a regression going on in the sport right now. Sure more people than ever CAN skydive, but the pioneering spirit, the challenge of pushing new limits and riding the edge has died.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[airtwardo 6]

I don't like being afraid but I like what I've learned
from it.

Quote

Bingo!


I started skydiving at a young & immature 18, the sport taught me a lot about life...

-You get out what you put in, when following your heart go full bore.

-Take your time and think things through.

-Listen to others but weight the advice, ultimately you need to trust yourself.

-You can overcome most any challenges if you 'really' want to.

-Smell the roses but keep moving forward because no matter how good you think you are, what ever 'plans' you may have, your destiny isn't always in your hands...Murphy lurks & the reaper is just a heartbeat away from putting his foot in your ass.

I started skydiving back when it was considerably more of a challenge than it is now, rigs were huge and uncomfortable, parachutes flew like a greasy safe, it took two hands to cutaway and sometimes that didn't work, the 'RSL' was a rope tied to the reserve handle that would knock your teeth out if you needed it...

~just to survive much less excel gave the confidence to seek other challenges and approach them with similar methodical exuberance.

I've gotten to do things, go places, meet people that I never would have had I not carried within me the 'whats the worse that could happen, a double malfunction?...BTDT' attitude.

And for that I'm eternally grateful to the sport.

So no, in my case I wouldn't want my skydiving to be 100% safe...just like I would NOT want my life to be 'guaranteed' ...on any level.

"Ships are safe when docked in the harbor, but that's not what ships are made for."

It's the endless possibilities that tend to keep you thinking, keep you sharp...it's WHY we live life after all.

It's what WE'RE made for...isn't it?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[feuergnom 22]

after reading the title I wanted to answer with "what an idiotic question"....


but Skratch and you said all what I had in my mind but haven't had the words for

Quote

"Ships are safe when docked in the harbor, but that's not what ships are made for."

and that will be one of my fav quotes

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[rss_v 0]

Thanks for the replies so far. Opinion is, predictably, split - and clearly people jump for quite different reasons. Or combinations of reasons, I should say. The "complete safety" group is clearly the loudest voice in this and most (but not all) supposedly dangerous activities, and I have no doubt that that is the direction skydiving will continue to move in.

I was going to post this as a separate thread but it might as well go here:

Originally mentioned in another thread, this has been playing on my mind:

-------------

Quote

What USED to be appealing about skydiving was that when you left the plane you WERE going to die unless YOU DID SOMETHING. (no aad's) This was part of the challenge. Accepting responsibility for yourself and overcoming the fear.

This is actually a huge part of the attraction for me. If I had the choice I would never use an AAD but, for better or for worse, they're now compulsory in a lot of places and sort of "unofficially compulsory" everywhere else.

I have an unusual (but not exactly rare) attitude towards life and death and I would actually rather I honestly did have to pull or die each time. Knowing that there's a safety net kind of makes it less beautiful.

Do you think many other people have this sort of view or should I keep it to myself? I'd never mention it at the DZ for fear of being grounded as a suicide risk or something silly like that.
-------------

Does this make sense to anyone or am I off my rocker? I've mentioned gentler versions of this to people and it SEEMS that younger jumpers object most strongly, I guess because they “grew up” in the age of really quite excellent safety in the sport, and indeed see it very much as a sport, with specific performance goals. One gets the impression of some that if wind tunnels were big enough they’d never go up in a plane again.

A couple of older jumpers seemed to share my idea that a lot of the appeal was in that “philosophical” side of things where you intentionally put yourself in great danger and use your wit and skills, along with a certain level of technology, to try to get home safely. All adventure of all kinds over history can be described in those terms.

I guess I basically don’t see safety as the paramount objective, or the most important thing to be concerned with. Neither do any of you, for that matter, or else you’d never leave your houses in the morning. We all just have different tastes for risk in different situations, of course. In some potentially very dangerous sports I stay as safe as can be, for example I do a bit of rock climbing and I never do any soloing or anything that exposes me to more than the baseline risk for that activity. Because what I enjoy there is just the feeling of climbing, specifically, perhaps like some people just enjoy the feeling of flying (body or canopy) and have no wish for it to be any more dangerous than is absolutely necessary to experience those sensations.

An in-between example for me would be hiking/camping mini-expeditions that I take, and I intentionally neglect to take several common modern safety measures, such as carrying a mobile phone or a GPS, or telling people exactly where I’m going. In my mind, such things dilute my own responsibility for the outcome of the trip and it makes it all a lot less interesting. Again this is an arbitrary “safety point” to settle upon, though – I could even go out under-dressed and without a map, and be even more at risk, but that’s not to my tastes. Some people do actually do that, striking out into the woods with just a piece of string and a pen knife, so to them I am probably boringly safe.

Hopefully that sets the scene and explains that I acknowledge how arbitrary our individual “safety points” are in a given activity. It seems that in skydiving more than most other activities, WANTING there to be a certain level risk is seen as deplorable and utterly unacceptable. I guess it makes sense in the context of skydiving’s complex safety image (at once trying to persuade people that it’s super dangerous... yet really very safe) and constant fear of increasing self-imposed regulation and restrictions.

Anyway, turning to the obvious possible consequence of jumping without an AAD. I’ll just be really blunt and say that staying alive is not at all my top priority. I’m going to die one day, and that day isn’t really a very long way off. With that in mind, and knowing that it’s unavoidable, one should surely hope for the best death possible. I really can’t imagine a cleaner, quicker, and nicer way to switch off than being hit by a planet. Can you? If one day I accidentally – and it would be an accident – died during a skydive then, wow, how incredibly lucky I would feel (if I could feel anything) to go that way rather than one of the several far more popular and immeasurably more horrific ways to check out. I also don’t think it’s any more trouble to others, tbh – I bet it’s not great for the DZ staff and spectators, but it’s a whole lot less of a burden on fewer people than, say, rotting in a hospital bed for several months. So I’m really not as afraid of dying on a skydive as many people are, perhaps, and there are lengths I will go to to avoid it (e.g. pulling all my handles) and lengths I would rather NOT go to (e.g. installing a device to deploy for me). If some unlikely accident happened to me that rendered me unable to deploy then, fair enough, I'd count that as my time to go quietly back to the source.

Again, all these considerations exist on scales and degrees, so it’s very subjective and arbitrary where we stand. But to me there is just a huge difference between “pull your handle(s) or you’re definitely going to die” and “pull your handle(s) or your reserve will deploy anyway and you’ll get told off by the CCI”

And taking that further to my hypothetical 100% safety idea even more clearly shows the difference there. I, for one, would lose a lot of interest in skydiving if it was made even more regulated and safe than it is today.

[airtwardo 6]

Anyway, turning to the obvious possible consequence of jumping without an AAD. I’ll just be really blunt and say that staying alive is not at all my top priority.

Quote

Your profile is incomplete so I don't know what your experience in the sport is, my speculation is you have relatively little time in Skydiving.

Nothing wrong with that, however after spending over 3 decades in this jungle I've lost a lot of friends through various scenarios and 'my' take is that no matter how 'romantic' the idea of dying doin' what ya love to do might sound... the reality of it is a tragic waste.

I'd much rather die as my parents did, at a very advanced age following a long & happy life full of wonderful experiences, painlessly and surrounded by loved ones.

Risk management is what you are speaking of, and knowing how far you can push your personal limits without recklessly endangering yourself is the key.

It really has nothing to do with using an AAD...I've never owned one, yet most people that know me will tell you I'm one of the more safely conscious and methodical jumpers they know.

My risk management precludes me from making certain types of jumps with certain types of people because the 'safety factor' of my equipment limits my logical involvement...and that's fine with me.

About half of my annual jumps are low level hop N pops with various professional demonstration teams, I have 1/2 a dozen rigs and would dump an easy 10 grand in ADD's setting them up.

The cost/benefit doesn't work for me right now, however I'm slowly getting away from the demo circus world and will likely be getting one for a rig I'll jump as I move back into the 'sport' side of things...it makes sense to me to have one when doing RW with people I don't know.

I understand what you're saying, but even with an AAD this sport can kill you in a hundred ways you'll never see coming.
There is nothing macho or romantic about skydiving without a device that 'might' cut a loop in your reserve container if low enough goin' fast enough.

It's a last ditch back-up that just might allow you further participation in the adventures life has to offer.

No...at this time I don't have one, trust me it doesn't make the sport any 'better' for me ...it in fact limits the things I can/will do.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

• Quote

[MakeItHappen 15]

I thought I covered that in
http://parachutehistory.com/humor/2050.html

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[decompresion 2]

List of things that I would want to be 100% safe (not 99%):
1) Sex/Religion/politics
2) Crossing the street
3) Eating a peanut
4) Riding the subway
5) Taking a dump
6) Walking a texting
7) School lunches
8) Changing a tire
9) Christmas lights
10) McDonald's coffee temperature
11) Ice cream
12) Having a beer with SkyMonkey1
14) The number 13
15) Stairs (I shit you not: Health and Safety Executive UK)
16) Disneyland
17) Zippers (The boys can agree with me here)
The list goes on and on

There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

[Ishootu 0]

Wow only the third post and a shot at Lodi

[rss_v 0]

Quote

Your profile is incomplete so I don't know what your experience in the sport is, my speculation is you have relatively little time in Skydiving.

You speculate correctly.

Quote

Nothing wrong with that, however after spending over 3 decades in this jungle I've lost a lot of friends through various scenarios and 'my' take is that no matter how 'romantic' the idea of dying doin' what ya love to do might sound...

It's more about just having a quick and good death, really. I'd rather live doing what I love but I don't care what I die doing, as such. Getting hit by a meteorite while watching paint dry would be just as good.

Quote

the reality of it is a tragic waste.

I'd be missed by 5-6 people, half of whom will be dead themselves in 10-20 years. I can see that other people's deaths may be considered by others to be a waste of an appreciated person, so I'm definitely only talking about my own skydiving and risk.

***I'd much rather die as my parents did, at a very advanced age following a long & happy life full of wonderful experiences, painlessly and surrounded by loved ones.

Risk management is what you are speaking of, and knowing how far you can push your personal limits without recklessly endangering yourself is the key.

It really has nothing to do with using an AAD...I've never owned one, yet most people that know me will tell you I'm one of the more safely conscious and methodical jumpers they know.

My risk management precludes me from making certain types of jumps with certain types of people because the 'safety factor' of my equipment limits my logical involvement...and that's fine with me.

About half of my annual jumps are low level hop N pops with various professional demonstration teams, I have 1/2 a dozen rigs and would dump an easy 10 grand in ADD's setting them up.

The cost/benefit doesn't work for me right now, however I'm slowly getting away from the demo circus world and will likely be getting one for a rig I'll jump as I move back into the 'sport' side of things...it makes sense to me to have one when doing RW with people I don't know.

I understand what you're saying, but even with an AAD this sport can kill you in a hundred ways you'll never see coming.
There is nothing macho or romantic about skydiving without a device that 'might' cut a loop in your reserve container if low enough goin' fast enough.

It's a last ditch back-up that just might allow you further participation in the adventures life has to offer.

No...at this time I don't have one, trust me it doesn't make the sport any 'better' for me ...it in fact limits the things I can/will do.

[decompresion 2]

Quote

I'd be missed by 5-6 people, half of whom will be dead themselves in 10-20 years. I can see that other people's deaths may be considered by others to be a waste of an appreciated person, so I'm definitely only talking about my own skydiving and risk.

- Are you a reporter trying to get a juicy quote?
- Are you a troll trying to start a flame war?
- Are you working for a lawyer trying to establish the "general attitude" or "state of the art" or something?
- Have you never heard of this ?
Maybe its time to retire this account and start a fresh new one as if all this never happened.

There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

[tbrown 26]

We're not daredevils, we don't skydive for the danger. At least I don't, nor do any of my friends. But the danger is there and it is unavoidable. I do not believe the sport ever CAN be made 100% safe. There are no devices that are 100% foolproof and only a fool would rely on devices (other than a parachute) to save them.

Look at what's happened in recent years. AADs and RSL/Skyhooks have drastically reduced low pull/no pull fatalities, but advanced canopies are being flown into the ground by people who can't handle them. And people are flying into each other below a grand - what device could prevent that ?

Using our brains, WE can make skydiving quite reasonably safe - but that's about as far as we can get. Any attempt to make it "perfectly" safe is not only impossible, but smacks of overregulating a sport that is willing to assume a calculated risk.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[airtwardo 6]

>>>It's more about just having a quick and good death, really. I'd rather live doing what I love but I don't care what I die doing, as such. Getting hit by a meteorite while watching paint dry would be just as good.

I'd be missed by 5-6 people, half of whom will be dead themselves in 10-20 years. I can see that other people's deaths may be considered by others to be a waste of an appreciated person, so I'm definitely only talking about my own skydiving and risk.

Quote

Wow...

With that I might offer you're either in the wrong sport...or maybe in this sport for the wrong reasons.

We don't do this becasue we're 'not afraid of dying'...we do it because we're afraid of not living.

Big difference.

Again purely speculation, but you may have some self-worth issues to deal with...you seem like a pretty sharp person, get out from under that cloud.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rss_v 0]

Quote

We're not daredevils, we don't skydive for the danger. At least I don't, nor do any of my friends. But the danger is there and it is unavoidable. I do not believe the sport ever CAN be made 100% safe. There are no devices that are 100% foolproof and only a fool would rely on devices (other than a parachute) to save them.

Look at what's happened in recent years. AADs and RSL/Skyhooks have drastically reduced low pull/no pull fatalities, but advanced canopies are being flown into the ground by people who can't handle them. And people are flying into each other below a grand - what device could prevent that ?


This is a hypothetical question. I realise that in practice when one aspect of skydiving becomes safer, banned or closed off, people push the limits in other areas.

Quote

- Are you a reporter trying to get a juicy quote?
- Are you a troll trying to start a flame war?
- Are you working for a lawyer trying to establish the "general attitude" or "state of the art" or something?
- Have you never heard of this ?
Maybe its time to retire this account and start a fresh new one as if all this never happened.

No, no, no, yes.
I do know this is a "controversial" thing to discuss in skydiving. Not so much because it's especially dangerous compared to other activites, but because it's so "obviously" and overtly a take-a-risk-then-save-yourself situation. The layered and somewhat convoluted attitude towards safety and danger in skydiving, and of the public to it, is something that's interesting me more and more recently.

Quote

>>>It's more about just having a quick and good death, really. I'd rather live doing what I love but I don't care what I die doing, as such. Getting hit by a meteorite while watching paint dry would be just as good.

I'd be missed by 5-6 people, half of whom will be dead themselves in 10-20 years. I can see that other people's deaths may be considered by others to be a waste of an appreciated person, so I'm definitely only talking about my own skydiving and risk.

Quote

Wow...

With that I might offer you're either in the wrong sport...or maybe in this sport for the wrong reasons.

There are numerous reasons I started skydiving, and many different reasons for me continuing. In fact each time I go to the DZ it's for a different mix of reasons. Usually 90% of it is that I fucking like getting out of that plane.
It's not as if before each lift I write a suicide note in my log book and cancel my internet subscription. I'm basically just saying that when you decrease your risk of death from one thing, you increase it from others. I've been around enough people dying in conventional modern ways to know that avoiding it is one of my main goals.

Quote

Again purely speculation, but you may have some self-worth issues to deal with...you seem like a pretty sharp person, get out from under that cloud.

My general view on life and death is highly celebrated in many cultures, but not in the West. I'm fairly content with it, in any case.


Thanks for the replies, everyone!

[decompresion 2]

Quote

My general view on life and death is highly celebrated in many cultures, but not in the West. I'm fairly content with it, in any case.

Kindly state, concisely, what your "General view on life and death" is?
I am sorry for the repetition but you and others have written so many things that I am confused what your views are. (I want to learn about other cultures and your views are highly celebrated)

There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

[rss_v 0]

Quote

Quote

My general view on life and death is highly celebrated in many cultures, but not in the West. I'm fairly content with it, in any case.

Kindly state, concisely, what your "General view on life and death" is?
I am sorry for the repetition but you and others have written so many things that I am confused what your views are. (I want to learn about other cultures and your views are highly celebrated)

That's a bit too much of a tangent and I want the thread to stay on track as much as possible. From what I've said already you can infer enough about it for this particular application (i.e. skydiving and risk)

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Quote

...I do know this is a "controversial" thing to discuss in skydiving. Not so much because it's especially dangerous compared to other activites, but because it's so "obviously" and overtly a take-a-risk-then-save-yourself situation. The layered and somewhat convoluted attitude towards safety and danger in skydiving, and of the public to it, is something that's interesting me more and more recently...

One of the reasons it's "controversial" is because most skydivers (at least most that I know) aren't in it for the rush of "cheating death". It's far, far more the simple joy of human flight. Along with the cameraderie that comes with doing something fairly unusual. Plus the unlimited ways to expand your skillset and learn new disciplines.
Those sorts of skydivers get a little annoyed at the portrayal of skydiving as "Sport Death" by those who don't understand it.
And it really isn't all that dangerous. Use an AAD, be aware of the weather conditions and your own limitations, jump a canopy appropriate to your skill, don't play "chicken" with the planet and be very careful and aware of who's in the sky with you (to avoid a midair collision). Doing these things will allow you to avoid half or more of the incidents. And to make it clear, I'm not saying by any means that this sport is safe, simply that the risks are managable.

I've noticed that a lot of the people who get into the sport for the rush of the risk don't really last all that long. They get bored with normal jumping and either find a way to make it more dangerous (like a smaller canopy, swooping or BASE) or just move on.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[decompresion 2]

Quote

My general view on life and death is highly celebrated in many cultures

This should be on a T-Shirt

There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

[nigel99 143]

Quote

Quote

My general view on life and death is highly celebrated in many cultures

This should be on a T-Shirt

My views are "eat, fuck, skydive"

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[dontlikemustard 0]

If someone gave me some magical jumpsuit that prevented me from ever getting injured or killed skydiving... i would keep skydiving.

That being said, I love the feeling of relief, of a parachute opening. I find it absolutely amazing, to be able to hop off a plane and live. I suppose that aspect of skydiving would be negated had it been 100% safe.


I think that in the end, without all the dangers involved... the feeling of freefall, and flying a canopy, is absolutely amazing.

so yes, I would definitely keep skydiving.