rss_v 0 #1 June 15, 2012 Hi. This came to my mind recently so I thought I'd ask you guys. Imagine if we had perfect and flawless intelligent AADs that completely eliminated any risks surrounding deployment, plus "ALDs", if you will, which can land your main or reserve for you if it detects that you won't manage it safely. Basically, somehow, technology that removes all risks from the activity itself until the jumpers are as safe as the spectators. Don't worry about how that could ever be acheived, but just entertain the hypothetical notion that no one could ever die or be seriously injured during a skydive. Would that please you? Would it encourage or discourage your own skydiving? To what extent is the real risk of obliteration into Mother Earth an attractive or repulsive qualitiy of this sport? What sort of risk do YOU want in YOUR skydiving, if any? That is to say, not for students, tandems, your friends, or other people - on whom we shouldn't force danger. But, come to think of it, should we force safety on them either? That's another topic, haha. Stick to this one. You get the idea - feel free to explain your position either way. Thanks, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #2 June 16, 2012 I don't know. Danger wasn't why I started jumping. I wanted to go out in space and be weightless, but I was inconveniently born a couple centuries before that became commonly available. And I wanted to fly, like a bird. And when I was a kid I played WW-II pilot getting shot down over Germany so I would have to bail out, and I would fall and fall and fall. And for a couple summers I spent all day jumping off the 24 ft diving platform, accumulating several days worth of freefall one second at a time :-) :-) And when I finally did start I was really, really scared until I got stable (11th jump), and that wasn't fun. And the times after that when I would get in some situation and be really shit scared weren't fun either. On the other hand .. That danger introduced me to intense focus, and forethought, and paying attention, and I found that I really liked that. And I remember, in the late 70's, when life was starting to transition, wondering why I had to jump in order to focus like that. Well, of course you don't. People have known that for thousands of years. That led to a big thrash of reading spiritual and meditation books. And as I became more self aware, or maybe honest, over the years I found that I was drawn to situations of concentration and paying attention. I remember, working at the Academy of Science in Beijing a few years ago, the first time I decided to try taking a taxi and get further than walking distance from my apartment. It was like the pre-jump jitters of my first jump, reviewing how to say where I wanted to go, pinchecking everything I was taking with me, going to the bathroom again .. And when I got to the subway and started down the steps into the vast unknown of god-knows-what my heart was racing like on any jumprun. So I guess I'd change my answer from not sure to about the same as it is now. I don't like being afraid but I like what I've learned from it. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craigbey 0 #3 June 16, 2012 Quotejust entertain the hypothetical notion that no one could ever die or be seriously injured during a skydive What about during the climb to altitiude? Are we assuming that the airplanes are perfect? Or are you not including Lodi in this fantasy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #4 June 16, 2012 Quote Hi. This came to my mind recently so I thought I'd ask you guys. Imagine if we had perfect and flawless intelligent AADs that completely eliminated any risks surrounding deployment, plus "ALDs", if you ....... Ummmm? I think what you're looking for is called... "Bowling"! Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 179 #5 June 16, 2012 Skydiving is 100% safe... It's those pilots, airplanes, other skydivers, throwing nylon into wind and gravity that interfere sometimes and lowers that percentage every so often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Namowal 0 #6 June 16, 2012 I wouldn't mind it being 100% safe... ...but I wouldn't mind if McDonald's fries were 100% good for you either. My blog with the skydiving duck cartoons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guineapiggie101 0 #7 June 16, 2012 Yes, because then I could jump solo again without fear of hurting myself or anybody else. But, I do agree, it would take a bit of the "thrill" out of the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #8 June 16, 2012 I would love for it to be perfectly safe. I've already seen too many people die doing it. I would like to avoid that in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #9 June 16, 2012 I don't think it would take any of the fun away from the sport if it was 100% safe, but it might take away some of the mystique. Also if it was 100% safe I bet wuffos would still not get it (or try it).... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 329 #10 June 16, 2012 Yes I would. People look at me like I am from a different planet when I say I do skydiving for the 'human flight' and not the thrills. Living on a coastal area, where lots of people have experienced scuba diving, I tell them that it is apparently very similar (a perception of weightlessness, and a 3D playground). Most of them seem to get that. But then there is a part of me that relishes the fact that everytime I jump, I conquer very real fears.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quack 0 #11 June 16, 2012 It would be great if no one would die or get seriously injured, but having a guarantee of absolute safety may also result in some jumpers becoming complacent during the activity. While that complacency might also result in some really cool records being set (i.e. not having to worry about the what ifs) it would also diminish some of the thrill of having done your best while under the stress of paying attention to how real the moment is. In other words, it may take a skydiver away from truly being in that moment. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #12 June 16, 2012 The safer you make skydiving the more inventive skydivers will become at finding more ways to kill themselves. Safe skydiving is a pipe dream. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tatetatetate 0 #13 June 16, 2012 No, I have a very very different risk assessment for myself tbh. Firstly if things were 100% safe then everybody would be doing them. Which would reduce the allure of it. Without risk, without danger without problems. Life would be boring. I like risk. Secondly skydiving is ALREADY incredibly safe. Compared to other things: Motorbiking for example. (UK) 560 motorbikers died horribly last year. I've witnessed people die as well. Next year 500 more will die and the year after that another 500. 1500 bikers are seriously injured and or crippled from crashes. In fact Luke L an acquaintance of mine was killed two days ago. Yet the biking community vehmently oppose any restrictions on our ability to kill ourselves. Leg defenders for example opposed in the 1980s. Hi visibility laws again opposed recently. Bike armor laws again opposed. Again on 100bhp power restrictions and licencing restrictions. So I can pass my licence and ride a 195bhp missile if I so choose. The police had a massive campaign about proper riding gear and were lecturing people about it. So a bunch of us got stopped and lectured. All of us stripped down to just helmet and underpants and rode off as a laugh. Strangely perhour horse riidng is EVEN more dangerous than motorbiking. Therefore if ypu made it 100% safe it would be boring, and it is often why I do not buy the constant its for safety arguments which are constantly used as a method to end arguments which have merit. Some people just say its for safety and kill off any debate. Seriously please don't go down the BPA route where everything is justified on the basis of safety. According to their rules I should be dead by now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #14 June 16, 2012 No. Darwinism isn't always a bad thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #15 June 16, 2012 It's already too "safe". There is a growing element of jumper that is able to continues past an initial tandem in this sport because of the "safety factor" that creates more danger to the rest of us.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #16 June 16, 2012 Quote It's already too "safe". There is a growing element of jumper that is able to continues past an initial tandem in this sport because of the "safety factor" that creates more danger to the rest of us. Interesting viewpoint. I'll have to ponder that a while. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #17 June 16, 2012 Quote I don't like being afraid but I like what I've learned from it. Beautifully said, as always, Skratch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 33 #18 June 16, 2012 So what you're talking about would be like going on the "Skydive" ride at Disney World?????? No thanks. I spend a lot of time and effort encouraging safety and good decision making, especially when training new coaches and instructors. No one wants to see the sport become more dangerous, but what you're talking about isn't my sport. What you're talking about is a "no personal responsibility needed" experience. I already find the sport being sold that way too much today. As such, there is no choice in your poll that i can vote for.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guineapiggie101 0 #19 June 16, 2012 Why do you say it is "too safe" already? Look at the incidents record, people are still getting seriously hurt in landing accidents, or hurting others. I know people find thrill in stretching the limits. That is part of the allure of skydiving. But, if it was made safer, less people could/would get hurt or killed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Namowal 0 #20 June 16, 2012 QuoteThe safer you make skydiving the more inventive skydivers will become at finding more ways to kill themselves. I believe this 100%. People are geniuses at putting themselves in danger. There was a taxicab study where they compared crash rates of cabs with (and without) anti-lock breaks. You'd think cabs with anti-lock breaks would have less crashes, but it didn't happen, because the drivers "compensated" for the extra safety by being more reckless. QuoteSo what you're talking about would be like going on the "Skydive" ride at Disney World?????? That reminds me- the "find a way to somehow hurt yourself" phenomena still pops up, even in comparatively safe places. When I was growing up, Disneyland had a ride in Tomorrowland called the PeopleMover. It was a tame trainlike ride that went about 5-7 miles per hour. You'd think nobody could get hurt on it. Yet it had two fatalities: Each passenger tried to climb out of one car and into another. Both ended up being dragged and crushed. I've always wondered if the fact that they were 1)on a tame ride 2) at Disneyland, gave them a false sense of security. Had they been in a rickety carnival thrill ride, they may have stayed put.My blog with the skydiving duck cartoons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,337 #21 June 16, 2012 QuoteI know people find thrill in stretching the limits. That is part of the allure of skydiving. But, if it was made safer, less people could/would get hurt or killedI think you captured it very well -- part of the allure is stretching the limits. If you make it safer, the limits will be moved way in, and a different type of person will have access. And they will stretch their limits, and get hurt. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #22 June 16, 2012 Quote I believe this 100%. People are geniuses at putting themselves in danger. There was a taxicab study where they compared crash rates of cabs with (and without) anti-lock breaks. You'd think cabs with anti-lock breaks would have less crashes, but it didn't happen, because the drivers "compensated" for the extra safety by being more reckless. Risk homeostatis is a well known and studied phenomenon is a variety of fields. Within Skydiving it is known as Booth's Law #2"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excaza 1 #23 June 16, 2012 I think it would be great to have the best safety equipment possible. However, I'm not comforted by my safety equipment nearly as much as I'm comforted by the training I'm doing as a student and will continue to do when I obtain my license. I started learning to skydive because I've always wanted to be a pilot of some sort, and skydiving allows me to essentially fly myself around while careening towards the dirt. Plus, it's fun as hell. Knowing that I couldn't possibly die wouldn't take away the fun for me, but I'm sure there are plenty of others who think differently. More power to them, they do some pretty incredible stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Namowal 0 #24 June 16, 2012 Quote Risk homeostatis is a well known and studied phenomenon is a variety of fields. Within Skydiving it is known as Booth's Law #2 Ah yes, I should have figured the subject had come up before.My blog with the skydiving duck cartoons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #25 June 16, 2012 Quoteif things were 100% safe then everybody would be doing them. Which would reduce the allure of it. For some. I couldn't care less if everybody and their granny skydives, as long as I get to keep doing it. I don't do it because it's dangerous. I sure as hell don't do it because it makes me some kind of elite. I do it because it's difficult, and beautiful, and because the people I love do it with me. I voted 'perfectly safe', so they could keep doing it with me until we all die of old age.-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites