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riggerrob

"Must know" skills for junior riggers

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Let's try to reach an international consensus on "must know" skills for junior riggers.

Let's set aside national dogma to try and agree on "must know" skills for newly-minted riggers.

Let's also assume that a completely-qualified Master Rigger is available - one hour away - to solve the more complex problems.

This poll also pre-supposes that our junior rigger will be able to learn additional skills - during short courses - next winter.

IOW What are the "must know" skills for a one week course to certify new riggers?

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Let's try to reach an international consensus on "must know" skills for junior riggers.

Let's set aside national dogma to try and agree on "must know" skills for newly-minted riggers.

Let's also assume that a completely-qualified Master Rigger is available - one hour away - to solve the more complex problems.

This poll also pre-supposes that our junior rigger will be able to learn additional skills - during short courses - next winter.

IOW What are the "must know" skills for a one week course to certify new riggers?



All of the above.

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Rob,

I think all of the above would be 'must know', the good news is most of that is pretty short to teach, tacking a cable housing, changing AAD batteries and such.

I believe that ALL riggers should be able to do all of the above, as most of it is well within the FAA Sr Rigger Certificate.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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I may not be phrasing this perfectly but I'll try. Be able to identify main and reserve container and canopy components for functional compatibility and size. How often do you see rigs (especially mains) come in with parts that have been replaced by a well meaning rigger but not the correct part or the wrong size or type? I don't mean they need to know off the top of their head but they should be able to reference/identify what is acceptable and not.

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What's a "junior rigger"?

Aren't they called "Senior Riggers"?



The opening line of the OP is asking for INTERNATIONAL Consensus, Senior Rigger is a term used in the USofA not the same in many other parts of the world.

Here in OZ We call your Senior Rigger a "Packer A", a Master Rigger here is a "Rigger"
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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I'm going to take exception to the very primis of your question. I know what you're trying to ask I just disagre on a very basic level with the assumptions behind the question. I absolutely do not agree with the concept of a Junior rigger. I don't beleave that there is such a thing. I don't beleave in the idea of a limited riggers ticket. And I'm not spliting hairs about senior and master rigger certificates or any of that.

I replied to the last post here so I don't have the list in front of me but I'll just take one of them as an example. The thing about one pin reserves... WTF? I'm in the US so admitedly it may be diffrent else where but here if you're back rated that means you should be able to pack any, and I mean ANY, back parachute that walks through the door. I don't have my old log book here in front of me but just off the top of my head I'll toss out things that I know were in there before they were willing to sign me off to go take my practical...

b-12
nb-8
ba-22
various security PEP
butler
paracushen
brief case
prestige
warp 3
national pep
slimpack
thinpack
wedge
softie
wonderhog
RTS
Mirage, various two pin, in and out
Racers
and of course most of the commen single pins of the time. Vector, tallon, jav.
I don't know, I want to say it was 40 or 50 backs at the time that I took my test, and then I had another x number of seats. I can't clame that I had 40 diffrent types of rigs but it wasn't any one rig over and over again eather. I'm trying to recall if I had more then one packjob on any one rig and I don't remember.

And just for the record I'm not that old. Point is that they should be perfectly capable of packing any thing from an old mil four pin to a tight wings. Nobody will sign you off around here if you don't have a full spread of PEP in your log book. You should be every bit as comfertable with a c-9 as a PD reserve.

As to the rest... Just because you're a senior rigger doesn't excuse you from needing to know about assemblie, harness construction and repair modifacation, line set repare/replacement, major canopy repares patches across seams rib/cell replacement or even the manufactoring of equpment. You're expected to have a full working knowlage of all of the above. If only to inspect work that has allready been done. Just because you are not qualified to sign off on the job does not mean that you are excused from being able to do the work. A sienior rigger does the work. A master rigger supervises and signs off on the work.

I'm sorry, I'm going to rant here for a second. I do not hold with the idea of a week long course to teach some one to be a rigger. Eaven with a signifigant amount of prep work before arival, I don't buy it. I'm a ferm beleaver that it should be an aprintice ship program. I'm of the oppionion that it takes a min of about six months to make a rigger. That's in an active bussy loft where you will be exposed to a wide verrity of work. And I'd still call that a minimal incompleate education. It's a long way to go to what I'd call a "Master Rigger".

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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"
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... I don't beleave in the idea of a limited riggers ticket. ...

b-12
... Lee

"

.......................................................................

The last time some one brought a military-surplus PEP to me for re-pack, there was a note on the outside saying "do not jump." When I opened it up, I found that all the suspension lines had been cut. They were cut before the parachute was sold by the XYZ Air Force.
Bottom line, both the Canadian and American Armed Forces quit selling intact parachutes circa 1980 ... that was 32 years ago. Most junior riggers refuse to pack parachute older than themselves.

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... I don't beleave in the idea of a limited riggers ticket. ...

various security PEP
...

Lee

"

........................................................................

GQ Security closed their factory in San Leandro, California in 1984. The parent company published a manual saying not to pack any of their gear more than 15 years old. The "youngest" GQ Defense (of Great Britain) PEP I have been asked to repack was made in 1986.
Call me old and lazy, but I cannot understand why I would waste time training a junior rigger to repack gear that the manufacturer says should be retired????

Rob Warner
FAA Master Rigger: seat, back and chest
CSPA Rigger Examiner: all types

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... I don't beleave in the idea of a limited riggers ticket. ... rib/cell replacement ...

Lee

"

.........................................................................

The last time some one asked me to replace a rib, I replied "mail it back to the factory."
Without the factory patterns, it would take me several days to make a sloppy copy.
Why bother????
Tolerances are so tiny on modern canopies, that I could not pretend to draw a rib pattern within ten percent of the factory size.
It is not as if I don't know how to sew in ribs ... back in the 1980s, I sewed together a couple of Para-Kits and put more than 500 jumps on them. Both those canopies are still airworthy ... if you like seven-cell canopies made of F-111.

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... I don't beleave in the idea of a limited riggers ticket. ...

National Warp 3 ...

Lee



........................................................................

It has been at least 15 years since I repacked a Warp III container.
The last customer got discouraged when I told him how many hours it would cost to replace all the worn out pile Velcro and frayed Type 8 webbing. Warp III harness/containers were not very durable.

Secondly, most Warp IIIs were sold with Phantom round reserves. Phantoms were affected by Service Bulletins requiring: narrower diapers, additional Kevlar lateral bands, smaller rubber bands and testing for acid mesh. Sorry, but I am too lazy to repack any round canopy built during the acid mesh era. Even if they were carefully tested, their fabric has now been weakened by 26 years of tensile testing.

Thirdly, the last Phantom was built in 1989 ... 23 years ago. Now National says not to repack any of their gear more than 15 years old.

Fourthly, the nearest DZ banned round reserves almost a decade ago

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... I don't believe in the idea of a limited riggers ticket. ...

Brief Case
Prestige
Warp III
Wonderhog
RTS
Mirage, various two pin, in and out
Racers
...

Lee

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........................................................................

Sales of 2-pin sport containers died out during the mid-1990s, as soon as skydivers realized that 2-pin Cypri cost $125 extra.
These days, you cannot give away a Bullet, Eagle, EZ-Flyer, Excaliber, 2-pin Innovator, 2-pin Mirage, Northern Lite, Pigmee, Requin, Security System, Six Pack, Skinny-Pig, Sweethog, Swift, Top-Secret, or any other 2-pin sport container.
(As an aside ... I have packed all of the above containers ... just not in this century.)

Over the last decade, I have barely repacked enough Racers, Reflexes and Teardrops to stay legally current on Pop-Tops. I don't brag about being quick or graceful.

The only 2-pin reserves that I have repacked - in significant numbers - are Strong Dual Hawks. Now if you want to hear about wear patterns or field repair schedules ....
Hee!
Hee!

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ok, I'm not a rigger but I think I coul handle all of the above with the exception of a repack - so does this quailiy me????? if so: where can I get my ticket?
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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Fourthly, the nearest DZ banned round reserves almost a decade ago



IMO, that shouldn't be a deciding factor unless everyone you train is going to be rigging solely out of that dz for the duration of their ticket.

ETA: Wait, don't you Canuks have different rating systems? I seem to recall sport, one pin, 2 pin, PEP, ram-air/round?

If that's the case, and they're getting sport rated, then maybe I could see not teaching round packing... however, if they're trying for an FAA cert, they should know it as well.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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An entry-level sport rigger should be able to pack sport reserves, including other than 1-pin systems: Strong tandem (2-pin), Racer (2-pin, pop-top), and Reflex (1-pin, pop-top).

For the skills you have listed, I'd put an emphasis on inspections, including wear limits.

For AAD maintenance, consider knowing how to change the battery, cutter and control head on a Vigil and Vigil 2.

Your list doesn't include fingertrapping main and reserve closing loops. I think it should.

Mark

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Only one I could do without is hand tack a housing.



Seems like a shame you'd have to take your rig to the Master Rigger an hour down the road just because the housing tacking was loose.

The problem with not having a hammer is that then nothing looks like a nail. Fewer skills means it's more tempting to rationalize away problems instead of fixing them.

Hand tacking isn't too much to ask. A new rigger should be able to tack Slinks, housings, some hardware like B-12 snaps.

Mark

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... I do not hold with the idea of a week long course to teach some one to be a rigger. Even with a significant amount of prep work before arrival, I don't buy it. I'm a firm believer that it should be an apprenticeship program. I'm of the opinion that it takes a minimum of six months to make a rigger. That's in a busy loft where you will be exposed to a wide variety of work. And I'd still call that an incomplete education. ...

Lee

"

.......................................................................

We agree on that point. Most of what I know about rigging, I learned while working in factories (Butler and Rigging Innovations) in Southern California during the 1990s.

Unfortunately, we are in the minority.

The FAA wants to administer a test, then forget about riggers.

CSPA wants to train riggers to work alone at a single-Cessna DZ in Pumphandle, Saskatchewan.

Most young rigging students whine about "Why are we wasting time on these antique round parachutes that I have never seen and will likely never work on?"
They also complain about "Too much material to cover in too few hours." They are probably the same students who ignored six weeks worth of pre-course quizs.
Hah!
Hah!

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Where to begin?...

b-12 and mill rigs.

I don't know what you fly up there but here in texas we've got planes. I mean lot's of planes. North texas is very airplane friendly. And we've got war birds. It's big around here. There are T-6's on every field and there are little airports every where. Cavinaw air mussim which was right down the road must have brought in 10 rigs a month. As to age, over the years we've made them replace most of there canopies at some point. You can still get C-9's. As to mill surpluse, there are still deals out there. As an example Story baught... I want to say it was a bunch of ba-22's a couple of years ago. I think he got a whole conex container of them new in the box never put in service, not demilled. My friend picked up an mc-4 fully intact. I've seen simular deals on I think it was navy backs? I just wasn't in the market at the time. I don't really understand the workings of the goverment. Tom tryed to explane some of this to me, the codes under which it was decomishioned, shelf life, service life, etc but my mind just doesn't work that way. But what I can tell you is that all of the above on still in service down here and make up a good percentage of the trade.

Security.

That list was an example of what I was exposed to before I was signed off. Yep they're gone now and I can't say that I miss them but at the time there was a shit load of them around here. Walked into the shop every week. Lots and lot's of sail planes around here.

Ribs.

I think the first patch I ever sewed was on a strong tandom. Yah it was. It was that fucking marroun one Doc had. I want to say the patches were about three foot across and I had the whole tail apart. Baptisim by fire and it only seemed to get worse from there. I remember the one that got sucked into the jet ski... but I degress. At this point I acually don't find it to be that hard. I've got the tools, more double neadles then I can shake a stick at. Any body want a head... sewing machine that is. but you have to come and pick it up. If you have to generate a pattern it's a pain but it you've got enough peaces... and some times the manufacorer is just as much of a pain in the ass and some times more exspencive. I guess it's just a matter of perspective. I sew... a lot.

National.

Dude, national is still out there. Yes it's been a while sence I've packed a warp three and now they've devorced them selves from there older gear, bummer cause I've got a cherry red and black warp down stairs... In any case what's your deal about the phantoms? Yes they had service bullitons most of which had been done over the years. None of which were any big deal at the time. Yes they're gone now but guess what national lives on! One word, Aerostar. Still out there still selling them. They are fucking every where. And gee what is an aerostar... it's a fucking phantom. A phantom with the mods and better line attachment points.

2 pins.

What is your deal with two pins and pop tops. I guess it's just a reagional thing. There are some areas of the country where racers rule. Where half the people out there have pop tops. Farbanks sold a whole but load of reflexes around here. What's his name in houston used to sell racers and reflexes to every one he could. Parts for the reflx are scarce in spite of the talk about reviving it. so they are slowly going away. but racer is still out there and if you deal with foren jumpers a lot of those people are running at least a generation behind. CRW. Hell crw jumpers will jump any thing. It's less of an issue now that the trend is towards smaller canopies... actually it's a bummer. You could get a crw worthy rig so cheap there for a while. There's still no shortage of teardrops around europe. Strong paracushions are every where you look. and wait, didn't you work for buttler? Has he ever built a rig with only a single pin?

As for educations. I was lucky I got exposed to a lot. I had a chance to work under a lot of good people. And I'm still not done learning. Right now my floor is covered with alluminised PBI fabric. It's the shit workers wear in foundries. It's rated to 1300 deg f and reflecs 90 some odd percent of the heat. Shit's $75 a yard and the goods are narrow. Building a new recovery system this week. Air frame should be good for 500,000 feet. My table is covered with books, dynamics of atmospheric reentry by Regan, Hypersonic and high temperature gas dynamics by anderson, list goes on. Brain hurts every night, but we're makeing progress. I was makeing some more changes to my model the other day. The point is that there is all kinds of rigging. And as far as I'm concerned if you are a rigger you're a rigger. There's no limits no boundries. And you're growth shouldn't stop at the end of that week when some one stamps your forhead with your seal symble and hands you your temp certificate. And I don't like the idea that there is no world beyond the drop zone and no parachute beyond a mirage. I think that attitude is more then limmiting it's hurtfull. And a wider base of knowlage helps you and improves your understanding and is a binnifit even when you are packing an optima into a mirage container... again.

I've got to get back to work. Let the entertainment of the masses comence.

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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I absolutely do not agree with the concept of a Junior rigger. I don't beleave that there is such a thing.



Well you would be very wrong. A Senior rigger here in the USA is simply that!

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I don't beleave in the idea of a limited riggers ticket.



But do you believe that Senior riggers have limited privleges compared to a Master rigger?

It seems not by reading your posts.

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.....but here if you're back rated that means you should be able to pack any, and I mean ANY, back parachute that walks through the door.



That is correct. If you have a back rating you CAN pack any back type rig out there.

I will ask you this one question.
When you took the Oral and Pratical exam, have many different back types did you have to pack to get that rating, that exact day.

I will answer that for you...one...

That is if the Examiner went by the PTS as he or she should have been.

The bottom line is tha the test standards are set to establish minimum learning objectives for the rigger candidate.
These standards are not specific to any one rig out there.
One goal of the PTS is to establish ewhether or not the applicant can interpet instructions correctly.

If he or she can, then they should be able to correctly pack ANY back rig out there and be somewhat confident in their rigging ability.

Also, these test standards recently have gone through a major change and all DPRE's should have re-submitted new test plans by now to their FSDO.


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I do not hold with the idea of a week long course to teach some one to be a rigger.



You might have a point there.
But rarely does someone show up to a week long course that has absolutely no previous rigging experience.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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