Public Service Announcement

[Maksimsf 0]

What OP was trying to say is that buying from a dealer most of the time will cost just a little bit more ($100-200) then buying gear with xx% off cert, but some peoples ask for that certs way too much most of the time, and buyer actually ended up paying more. yeah, you have a right to sell your cert to someone like me, who just got into the sport(industry), and not knowing that MSRP(retail) means Manufacturer SUGGESTED retail price.

[crotalus01 0]

+1. And from what I have seen if you know the right people (or know the people who know the right people) you can actually get a better deal than most of the certificates I have seen at boogies as far as canopies go.
Honestly the best value certificates I have seen are the ones for jumpsuits, altimeters and maybe options on rigs. I have yet to see a rig or canopy discount that the right dealer couldnt match or do slightly better on - although I am sure there are some out there.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Um... remember, these "certificates" are usually distributed as a marketing tool.

I won a 1/2 off Wings certificate at a skydive for breast cancer event. I donated some $$$$ for the cause (something I would have done regardless of the prize) and my name was picked out of a hat.

I ended up buying a new
So, to make a long story even longer... Begged, borrowed or stolen, certificates are a marketing tool. ... that work!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[rehmwa 2]

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karma - another mythical religious belief, based on nonsense and just out there to allow people to judge others or to make themselves feel good

Nope. It's for people who have a conscience about how they treat other people. YMMV.

that position requires zero mystical beliefs to live by if one is sincere in doing the right thing

- there is no mystical account of good deeds that come back in turn - or bad deeds that come back to bite you

doing good and doing right are sufficient in their own right and I don't need a tally book to motivate me any more than I need an eternal reward/punishment to motivate me

I'll concede this following statement to take the sting out of my initial note....., if someone has to manufacture a motivation to be a decent human? - then that's cool - it's results that matter, their path may vary

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[virgin-burner 1]

to sum it up folks, regardless of your mysthical beliefs, if you SELL on your certificate for your financial gain, you're a douche. but if you BUY one, you may also have a 2ndary asshole with it, because the seller just ripped you a new one!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[rehmwa 2]

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to sum it up folks, regardless of your mysthical beliefs, if you SELL on your certificate for your financial gain, you're a douche

disagree - two people can enter into any contract they wish and it's nobody else's business but the two of them

for this case, I'd agree with one position only - the seller is a douche if he KNOWINGLY takes a profit from the buyer that would leave the buyer in a worse position than if he never had the certificate in the first place - the buyer is also a sucker



one thing for sure - if you stick your nose into other people's business and try to force your subjective beliefs on others - then the douche is clearly identified

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[klingeme 0]

UPT's certificates clearly state at the bottom of the certificate that they are non-transferable. Our dealers make a profit selling our product because they provide a service (to you and for us). You, by selling the certificate, are acting as a dealer (making a profit off of our product) but not actually providing any service to the customer or to UPT. We have to process the order in house, which makes it a more "expensive" rig for us to produce. When I see certificates for sale on DZ.com, I message the seller and inform them that they are not allowed to sell (read the bottom of the certificate) it and ask them to delete their classified ad.


Mark Klingelhoefer
United Parachute Technologies

[diablopilot 2]

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I'm not sure I get the logic.

If you don't get it then you don't really understand the karma of skydiving. If I have to explain it to you then you'll never figure it out.

Suffice to say there is plenty of profits to be had in the sport, I should know, it's my job to make them, but this whole shady making a buck off of the discount coupons has seriously fucked things up.

It's a douchebag move, and it wouldn't fly anywhere else, or do people hang out in front of supermarkets selling dollar off couplons?

But hey what do I know, everyone with 15 minutes in the sport has it figured out. This is why there is a sport of tourists, rather than the community of fun seeking people I started with.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Maksimsf 0]

Hey guys, if anyone's Karma needs to be fixed/improved - please send a 50% off Wings or Aerodyne my way

[Martini 0]

Generally I'd agree with not making a buck of discount coupons but what if a seller has a great discount coupon but can't use it and sells it for real cheap? Only a little shitty? The seller has something of value and if it is transferable can help someone else out. Yes it would be noble to give it away but who's the judge? In my case many years ago I was sold a discount coupon that saved me over $500 from a guy who had no need for the coupon, didn't have a buddy to give it to that had any need for it and sold it to me for $100. The canopy mfg didn't take a hit because they willingly gave away a transferable discount (I checked with them and they were cool about the whole deal), the coupon seller got something out of his prize and I got a nice deal on a canopy that I wouldn't have otherwise purchased. This doesn't seem like bad karma to me. Things aren't always just black & white.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[Southern_Man 0]

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UPT's certificates clearly state at the bottom of the certificate that they are non-transferable. Our dealers make a profit selling our product because they provide a service (to you and for us). You, by selling the certificate, are acting as a dealer (making a profit off of our product) but not actually providing any service to the customer or to UPT. We have to process the order in house, which makes it a more "expensive" rig for us to produce. When I see certificates for sale on DZ.com, I message the seller and inform them that they are not allowed to sell (read the bottom of the certificate) it and ask them to delete their classified ad.


Mark Klingelhoefer
United Parachute Technologies

Do you care if they give them away?

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Andy9o8 0]

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UPT's certificates clearly state at the bottom of the certificate that they are non-transferable. Our dealers make a profit selling our product because they provide a service (to you and for us). You, by selling the certificate, are acting as a dealer (making a profit off of our product) but not actually providing any service to the customer or to UPT. We have to process the order in house, which makes it a more "expensive" rig for us to produce. When I see certificates for sale on DZ.com, I message the seller and inform them that they are not allowed to sell (read the bottom of the certificate) it and ask them to delete their classified ad.

Mark Klingelhoefer
United Parachute Technologies

Do you care if they give them away?

If the certificate expressly uses the term "non-transferable", without additional language clearly defining or restricting that term, then I'd think that that term would most likely apply to any potential transfer not expressly authorized by the issuer (i.e., UPT), regardless of whether it is or is not in exchange for compensation. (Meaning a give-away would legally be the same as a sale; they're both "transfers".)

That being said, I leave it to UPT to answer your question directly, since at the end of the day it's UPT's decision.

[klingeme 0]

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Do you care if they give them away?

By the "letter of the law" non-transferable means you can not exchange them, and the reason is what I stated above.

That being said, if they are given away or "traded" for a 6 pack of beer or a couple pack jobs (things of little or no value) we do not have a problem with an exchange. Another example would be you won a UPT certificate, but have a brand new container, and someone else won a Vigil Certificate, but already has an AAD. It this case a trade would be completely acceptable.

UPT's stance on the certificates is we do not want you profiting from the sale (acting as a dealer who is doing nothing) but we would like the certificates to be used by someone looking to purchase a container.

Mark Klingelhoefer
United Parachute Technologies

[pchapman 261]

Mind you I don't know how the certificates are matched to a person and thus identified as "transferred".

When raffled off say by a DZ, is there one part of a form that is filled out by the DZ with the recipient's name and mailed in to the equipment company? Or else who will know if a private sale takes place, not posted on DZ, and without the winners posted by the DZ online?

At least Vectors don't come with Do Not Sell agreements...

Having a Non Transferrable proviso on the certificate would make the certificate still appear valuable ("50% off!") but lessen it's actual value as many people won't be in a position to take advantage of the offer. Yet it has the reasonable marketing aim of trying to tip someone to buy the gear who otherwise wouldn't (and have the company take a hit this time), and not just make it cheaper for someone who was going to buy anyway. What some customers like, others won't.

(I'm not taking any stance here on how certificates should be handled, just pointing out issues.)

[Andy9o8 0]

You make a valid point. Unless a gift certificate (from any merchant) is either filled-in with the new owner's name, or is registered somehow, then as a practical matter it probably can be used pretty much by whomever the bearer happens to be.

[rehmwa 2]

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UPT's stance on the certificates is we do not want you profiting from the sale (acting as a dealer who is doing nothing) but we would like the certificates to be used by someone looking to purchase a container.

that's an interesting position, considering that the original certificate holder may very well have facilitated a real purchase by transferring that gift certificate

As for disallowing it.....

the plus - you get that free advertising by getting your name out there during the drawing

the minus -it seems the policy might limit your ability to get another physical rig out there for people to see or admire by limiting the use of the certificate to just the original winner

I think this is a cost effective policy. You reduce the actual number of occurrences that the company has to redeem the coupons but still get the word out by being part of public drawings. This is very common technique - and smart - and everyone does it.



I don't think your stated reason makes any sense though.



It's well known that giving out certificates instead of physical prizes is a great way to get cheap advertising. For minor items, people rarely cash in certificates, especially for low value items. I suspect that if a company gives out 3 certificates for a free t-shirt instead of 3 t-shirts (for example) then the company will likely only have to provide a single t-shirt, if any, once the dust settles.

But stand on stage and throw out 3 t-shirts to the crowd? Well, it costs you 3 t-shirts, but then they are likely going to be worn that night and during the boogie immediately.

it's a real tradeoff

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[klingeme 0]

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Mind you I don't know how the certificates are matched to a person and thus identified as "transferred".

There is a "this certificate was awarded to" field on the certificate that the "awarder" is SUPPOSED to fill out, but rarely do.

It is kind of an "honesty policy" in the same way your logbook is. A skydiver could "pencil jump" enough jumps to get a rating, but that doesn't make it right.

If you sell them locally, I'd be willing to bet that you'd never get "caught" but putting them up on DZ.com or Ebay (where we do check) is pretty dumb.

[Southern_Man 0]

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Do you care if they give them away?

By the "letter of the law" non-transferable means you can not exchange them, and the reason is what I stated above.

That being said, if they are given away or "traded" for a 6 pack of beer or a couple pack jobs (things of little or no value) we do not have a problem with an exchange. Another example would be you won a UPT certificate, but have a brand new container, and someone else won a Vigil Certificate, but already has an AAD. It this case a trade would be completely acceptable.

UPT's stance on the certificates is we do not want you profiting from the sale (acting as a dealer who is doing nothing) but we would like the certificates to be used by someone looking to purchase a container.

Mark Klingelhoefer
United Parachute Technologies

Thanks,

I've only won one thing at a boogie, a discount off of an audible, it was relatively low value and I had just won an audible, so I gave it away. Not sure what I would do with a rig certificate but I am not in the market for a new rig.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[davelepka 4]

With the 'ethics' of selling something you got for free aside, I thought this would be a good time to bump this thread back up to the top. Maybe because it's the week after the 4th of July boogies, but it seemed to me like a good time to revist this topic.

So have a glance at post #1 before you consider buying any type of coupon from anyone. Almost every single coupon out there will not turn out to be much of a deal if you pay anything more than $25 or $50, and even then you add the risk of another transaction, and another 'complication' of buying gear.

Good luck out there in classified land.