= New Skydiving Gear =

[evilivan 0]

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Actually, it might be useful to communicate a students altitude to the radio operator on the ground, much the way an aircraft transponder does. This might be helpful while talking students though their landing patterns, especially if the ground receiver had multiple displays so several students could be monitored at the same time. While I can't imagine making this affordable enough to be practical, it does strike me as a cool academic engineering project worth a few credits at Georgia Tech. Good luck!

There could be some mileage in that idea (I was scrolling through the post hoping someone hadn't thought of it first - damn you Dean358 ).

Knowing the altitude of someone under canopy from the ground could be useful for all types of canopy coaching; but as I see it the cost of something that would provide that information in (semi)realtime would probably outweigh its usefulness...

Ref: the original idea, you don't specify (but seem to be referencing) that this would be for freefall primarily? Others have already said it above, but if the separation between "instructor" and "student" is so much that you need a device to tell you what that is, there is very little you can do with that information.... I suppose if your student is going low because of a lack of altitude awareness, and you could get a "pull" signal to them via audio? visually? it might have some use, but I would argue that we already have devices to deal with that, and many other, scenarios (AAD's), and that the situation itself is rare enough to make the cost of buying something to maybe improve the situation (the student would still have to respond to the signal) would not be worth it...

Hope that was helpful.

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[miraclecreator 0]

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There could be some mileage in that idea (I was scrolling through the post hoping someone hadn't thought of it first - damn you Dean358 ).

Knowing the altitude of someone under canopy from the ground could be useful for all types of canopy coaching; but as I see it the cost of something that would provide that information in (semi)realtime would probably outweigh its usefulness...

Ref: the original idea, you don't specify (but seem to be referencing) that this would be for freefall primarily? Others have already said it above, but if the separation between "instructor" and "student" is so much that you need a device to tell you what that is, there is very little you can do with that information.... I suppose if your student is going low because of a lack of altitude awareness, and you could get a "pull" signal to them via audio? visually? it might have some use, but I would argue that we already have devices to deal with that, and many other, scenarios (AAD's), and that the situation itself is rare enough to make the cost of buying something to maybe improve the situation (the student would still have to respond to the signal) would not be worth it...

Hope that was helpful.

Yea thanks! That was really insightful and pretty much what I had in mind. Like I said, I'm aiming to add more value to existing altimeter; meaning I want to see if it's possible to improve communication via altimeter if I made it to share more than just showing YOUR OWN altitude? like other people's altitudes, relative distance, etc

[evilivan 0]

Just for your info, we already have available to us (although not always used):

Visual altimeters - both analogue and digital
Audible altimeters - both analogue (very rare! but I still have an original dytter... never jump it of course ) and digital
Air-to-air audible comms - not in mainstream use
AAD's - automatic activation devices that deploy the reserve at a given altitude and speed
Hand signals (they work!)

So if you can improve any of the above, go for it - but do recommend that you research first... there is a lot information in these forums alone that can give you the history - and the painful births of some new products brought into the market (check out Vigil).

As mentioned above, if you could reduce the cost of some of these things then excellent - however, please remember that we need a certain amount of reliability in our kit (by that I mean a LOT

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[VTmotoMike08 0]

Simple idea, incredibly complex to realize- make a device that beeps in your ear if your canopy will not have time to recover from its dive before you hit the ground. If you hear the alarm, time to start digging out of that low turn. Given the dozens of choices for main canopies and infinite variations in wing loading, this will be very difficult. But you wanted ideas.

In general, if everybody says you should understand the sport before trying to invent something for it, maybe they are right

[miraclecreator 0]

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Just for your info, we already have available to us (although not always used):

Visual altimeters - both analogue and digital
Audible altimeters - both analogue (very rare! but I still have an original dytter... never jump it of course ) and digital
Air-to-air audible comms - not in mainstream use
AAD's - automatic activation devices that deploy the reserve at a given altitude and speed
Hand signals (they work!)

So if you can improve any of the above, go for it - but do recommend that you research first... there is a lot information in these forums alone that can give you the history - and the painful births of some new products brought into the market (check out Vigil).

As mentioned above, if you could reduce the cost of some of these things then excellent - however, please remember that we need a certain amount of reliability in our kit (by that I mean a LOT

Thanks! that's good to know, i'll def look into it; and yea I'm well aware that most devices I've come up with have existed already; so maybe I can improve and enhance on some of them, namely the altimeters. Do skydivers prefer wrist worn or helmet based device?

[miraclecreator 0]

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Simple idea, incredibly complex to realize- make a device that beeps in your ear if your canopy will not have time to recover from its dive before you hit the ground. If you hear the alarm, time to start digging out of that low turn. Given the dozens of choices for main canopies and infinite variations in wing loading, this will be very difficult. But you wanted ideas.

In general, if everybody says you should understand the sport before trying to invent something for it, maybe they are right

Hey thanks, that helps! what's a low turn if you dont mind me asking?

[Andy9o8 0]

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Do skydivers prefer wrist worn or helmet based device?

A little of both; many of us like the redundancy of wearing both a visual altimeter (these days, most are wrist-mounted; in years past, they were chest-strap mounted, and a few folks still like them that way) with an audible altimeter, which is helmet-mounted.

Audible altimeters help in that they don't require the jumper to shift his focus of vision away from the action and down to his altimeter. They also help in case a jumper loses altitude awareness due to hyper-concentration on the activity that might make him forget to check his visual.

Visual altimeters help because they can't be drowned out by the wind noise in freefall, which is pretty loud (although the beep on audibles is pretty darn loud, too, to compensate for that).

All of these are devices, and devices can fail. That's why we train ourselves to be able to roughly gauge altitude by looking at the ground; believe it or not, most jumpers get pretty good at it.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

>>what's a low turn if you dont mind me asking?





A low turn is when you go on a website and ask silly questions just to try and stir the shit... o wait, nevermind thats called trolling

[BillyVance 34]

I'm not sure if anybody has done it, but an interesting project could be developing some kind of communication device for an AFF student under canopy who is hard of hearing or deaf and cannot use the standard radio that instructors use with their hearing students.

Sure we've had alternative ways of dealing with students like them and they have worked well... but, it's just something to think about.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Andy9o8 0]

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Simple idea, incredibly complex to realize- make a device that beeps in your ear if your canopy will not have time to recover from its dive before you hit the ground. If you hear the alarm, time to start digging out of that low turn. Given the dozens of choices for main canopies and infinite variations in wing loading, this will be very difficult. But you wanted ideas.

In general, if everybody says you should understand the sport before trying to invent something for it, maybe they are right

Hey thanks, that helps! what's a low turn if you dont mind me asking?

This is a good example of how you need to learn about the activity in order to develop technology for it.

Ram-air parachutes ("canopies") are essentially glider wings. Generally, when you turn your parachute, it banks. Put very simply, in order to land safely, you need to have your canopy straight and level, and not in a turn or bank. So if you're turning, you need to completely recover from your turn by the time you need to land. If you turn too low, and you're still in a turn and bank when you land, you could easily land hard enough to kill or seriously injure yourself. In fact, what most non-skydivers don't realize is that most skydiving fatalities these days are not from "the parachutes not opening" or other equipment malfunctions, but from pilot errors under a properly-functioning canopy like making a last-moment turn too low to the ground.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I'm not sure if anybody has done it, but an interesting project could be developing some kind of communication device for an AFF student under canopy who is hard of hearing or deaf and cannot use the standard radio that instructors use with their hearing students.

Sure we've had alternative ways of dealing with students like them and they have worked well... but, it's just something to think about.

Like maybe some kind of heads-up or even simple flashing-light system mounted to the helmet to indicate instructions to turn right, left, stop turn, flare, etc.

[scholarkyle 0]

Who makes a HUD?? I've had grand illusions for some time now that I could make a boatload patenting a skydivers heads-up display broadcasting on a fullface helmet visor. Dreams: Shattered. Thanks a lot!!

[CygnusX-1 42]

Its good that you are trying to design something to help improve skydiving. That is how advancements are made. However, you come off as having a solution in search of a problem!! This is exactly why so many businesses fail in the first year.

You need to do market research (and maybe that is what you are trying to do here). IMO, DZ.com is not the place to do it. You will not get a lot of serious answers like you would if you were talking to people in person at an actual DZ.

The question I have for you is, "Are you trying to design something for a class project or are you thinking that this design could be sold to the public?" If you are designing for a class project, build anything you want - whether it is useful or not. It doesn't matter. Although to go to market, takes a completely different level. There has to be a demand for such a device. You have to price it such that people will buy it. When you get out of school, you will learn that price has just about as much importance as design when designing a widget. And don't even think you can sell prototype material. The amount of money to design and build a prototype will exceed what someone is willing to pay by 100 fold. And you have to have good service after the sale.

So what would I like to see in an altimeter? Go out and purchase a Neptune. Use that as a good start. Add in a GPS logger that would download to a computer via IrDA. Add a feature where the device TURNS OFF when not in use (save on battery power). Power the device using super-capacitors. Charge the caps using induction (no physical connection). And don't make it significantly larger/heavier than the current Neptune. There is a design problem for you.

Notice that I didn't say anything about extra modes of communication (audible, etc). Those in my opinion are worthless. Designing any type of communication device (that works) will take more than your budget (both time and money) can handle. Unless you are willing to spend $250,000 on it.

[jakee 1,254]

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Funny thing is, most fatalities are caused by EXPERTS being too overconfident, and I'm developing a communication device for the purpose of reducing these 'pilot errors' and potentially saving their lives.

But how will this device potentially save our lives?

If you dont know, that's why you are being mocked.


(BTW, I would have completed your survey, but I was stumped by the multiple choice instructions: "(You may check more than one, but LESS THAN TWO CHOICES)" Too complicated for this so called expert)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[LouDiamond 1]

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Actually, it might be useful to communicate a students altitude to the radio operator on the ground, much the way an aircraft transponder does. This might be helpful while talking students though their landing patterns, especially if the ground receiver had multiple displays so several students could be monitored at the same time. While I can't imagine making this affordable enough to be practical, it does strike me as a cool academic engineering project worth a few credits at Georgia Tech. Good luck!

Thats what I was thinking, instructor on the ground,student under canopy. Something like that could be done as it already exists on the military side in a slightly different application. It's used for GPS guided bundles. The altitude of the canopy and other information is displayed on the receiver/transmitter and in this case, the user can steer the canopy from the ground or while in the air under canopy himself above the guided canopy. But the reality of the situation is that it's not affordable to sport skydiving,especially for strictly student use.

Likewise, the HUD concept has been and is still being played with on the military side but its also crazy expensive and the benefit to a recreational skydiver would be minimal at this point at least. The same goes for tracking/locating individual and multiple people/canopies

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Here are some skyding related product ideas that go in different directions than you have been going.

1. Build an AFFORDABLE device that allows tracking / finding cutaway main canopies and reserve canopy freebags. (A product to do this for main canopies was on the market... but it never caught on. $$$$)

2. A device to help locate jumpers who have landed off the drop zone under dangerous circumstances.... low canopy deployment, reserve deployment, premature canopy deployment, automatic activation device firing, high G opening or impact, etc. If you read the incident reports, it is not uncommon for injured jumpers under an open canopy to land off the DZ... followed by a lengthy ground search. Anything that could shorten this search would be good. The device I have in mind would NOT require the jumper to activate it when bad things occur.

3. If you aren't solely interested in electronics... there is a huge need for skydiving helmets which COMBINE two sets of characteristics:

The features that skydivers want... light weight (protect neck during brisk openings), good neck clearance in back (due to our posistion when belly flying), space for audible altimiters, (specialty helmets for camera).

Features for REAL impact attenuation: Appropriate distribution of suitable shock absorbing materials.

Generally we can get helmets with one set of features or the other, not both. There is even one brand of skydiving helmet which bears a warning label that says the helmet is not designed to protect the wearer from impact!

4. A light for nightime canopy flight. In my brief experience I have yet to see a light used which meets all of the legal and practical requirements:

- flashing light (USA FAA rule)
- 3 mile visibility (USA FAA rule)
- 360 degree visibility
- NOT visible by jumper wearing it (preserve night vision)
- low mass and small size
- Easy to attach to and remove from jumper or jumper's gear.
- easy to turn on with gloves (after canopy open)
- not a snag hazard (suspension lines won't snag on it)
- low cost

Info on night jumps: http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section6/tabid/169/Default.aspx#979

Good Luck!!!

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[sjadczak 0]

Also, just so you know, there is a skydiving club at Georgia Tech (I'm a member ) We meet at 8pm in the sport club room at the CRC. You can always come to a meeting and get information/opinions from those of us that are there.
Feel free to pm me with any questions about meeting up with us.

[billvon 2,396]

Here's an idea for you:

Take a dytter (for example, a Pro Track) and add a receiver. Add a few tones that sound when a signal is sent from a transmitter. Could be simple tones/tone sequences or actual voice. (i.e. "two minutes" "climb out" "turn left" "flare" etc) Would have wide applicability to both student and bigway operations.

[jsreznor 0]

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Um, when do you think skydivers have time to talk during freefall?

There is already an air to air communication device on the market.
and they have used it VERY sucessfully on a few big way jumps.
Not to mention the value it could have in Canopy relative work.

Dont be so quick to dismiss things, with 108 jumps you have yet to see and learn most of what is on offer out there.

So have I

I immediately thought of CRW as a useful tool but he specified "freefall." Then thinking about it some more, I made the conclusion, as evidenced by the posts below, that walkie talkies in the helmet wouldn't be ideal compared to the current visual acuity and eye contact used with cues to move points. For me, it would change a formation from a team flying a formation to a bunch of people just flying slots.

Don't be so quick to dismiss a person with 108 jumps next time. I don't hold your E license against you.

[miraclecreator 0]

Thanks, that's some good ideas there and I have a better idea on the directions I'm going to.

I've narrowed it down some more and aiming to:


- Raise awareness of altitude (enchance/increase visual and audio)
a) prevents/reduce pilot error such as doing a cutaway too late. (i.e. beeps, flashing light, etc)
- Create a way to keep track of skydivers (1 way or 2 way)
a) shares/keep track of altitudes of student
b) receives action advice (i.e. pull canopy, get away, etc)
c) a way to instantly signal help with a press of a button (smoke, flare, flashing light, etc)


Once again, I'm just throwing out some ideas here; I do apologize if they sound funny but feel feel to let me know if you think any of the criteria listed is not useless.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Features for REAL impact attenuation: Appropriate distribution of suitable shock absorbing materials.

I know of at least two skydiving helmet mfgrs that either have or are working on something that actually attenuates impact better than what we have in skydiving today.

However, the bigger issue here that is probably an unknown to the average skydiver is that in order to build a helmet that does what you are asking from it, requires that it be bigger/bulkier than what people want because they want to look cool. It also involves a fairly large amount of money on the mfgrs part to conduct the required testing to actually produce a helmet that meets the safety standards commonly used for helmets designed against impacts. That cost alone outweighs the money that would be made in selling everyone in the USPA that skydives one of those helmets after the certification.

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4. A light for nightime canopy flight. In my brief experience I have yet to see a light used which meets all of the legal and practical requirements:


- 360 degree visibility

This already exists, at least the military has been doing it for years already. Civilian night jumps in general are one area that needs improvement across the board as some DZs/people do it better than others and there seems to be a lack of standardization of how its done from DZ to DZ sometimes. The comments in the March Parachutist is a good example of how the military does it and it makes absolute sense. There are strobe lights out there that meet these requirements and the average person can purchase them. You can get creative with how they attach to the top and or back/nape of your helmet or you can use the simple Duct tape attachment method.

Part of the problem is that the night signaling devices commonly used in civilian skydiving are not made for skydiving and they use C or D size batteries and are generally round in shape which makes mounting them on top of the helmet awkward to say the least. Having spent more time under canopy at night than most ever will, I can tell you that a white strobe mounted on top of a jumpers helmet can be seen fairly easy, especially if you are close to them as the light reflects off of the underside of the canopy. One of the reasons why we don't see more of these military signaling devices on the DZ is due to their price, they are not cheap but neither is ones life. However, there are similar devices out there that are cheaper. Duracell is making a line of lights if I recall correctly that look a lot like the military type of lights to include a strobe feature that you can get at most Wally worlds or Lowes for about what you pay for the giant orange round D battery deal you see on DZs. Some bike stores have really good strobes that work just as well. I've used a red LED strip that was made for biking/jogging that had a strobe feature that worked well as a red light on the front of the jumper and it was flexible as it was designed to be worn around the leg/arm(it actually looks similar to the Hel-fire 4 but without the large box at the base). I've even seen a pet collar version that has LEDs all around the collar at the Pet store. They also have what they call LED collar covers that could be slid over the chest strap that would work great as well.

So the point is there is no reason why civilian skydivers should not have a red light source on the front of their body, a green light source on the back of their body/container and a white strobe on the top of their helmet. It can all be done for a few dollars and you can get it from most Wally world/bike stores easily.

example strobe light from Adventure lights

example DUCT tape method of military strobe light.

Hel-star 4 LED strobe light

Dog collar

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[LouDiamond 1]

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I've narrowed it down some more and aiming to:


- Raise awareness of altitude (enchance/increase visual and audio)

Alti-2 makes the N3A audio altimeter that has the ability for the user to create custom commands/tones. L&B has had a LED attachment that can be attached to their Audible altimeters for years.

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- Create a way to keep track of skydivers (1 way or 2 way)
a) shares/keep track of altitudes of student
b) receives action advice (i.e. pull canopy, get away, etc)
c) a way to instantly signal help with a press of a button (smoke, flare, flashing light, etc)


Once again, I'm just throwing out some ideas here; I do apologize if they sound funny but feel feel to let me know if you think any of the criteria listed is not useless.

As I mentioned above, there are items out there that do most of what you mentioned but they are either incredibly expensive due to the technology involved or not practical for sport skydiving due to the added equipment it would require the jumper to wear and or purchase. Most fall into both categories. The best way to locate people is if they have a cell phone, which some times doesn't work, so you have the PLB alternative, not always practical and you have to carry it with you. The other method is similar to what was developed for cutaway canopies a few years back and that is what scientists use to track polar bears or other animals via radio signal. Again, all require the jumper to carry additional bulky items and expensive.

Find a way to do all of those things that reduces the bulk and brings the cost down to a reasonable price and you will be on to something.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[spootch 0]

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You don't have to voice you opinion if you don't want to but please dont think of this as a joke.

And the great thing about this forum is that I do get to expreess my opinion if I want to.

Maybe you augment the electrical shock system with flares or smoke signals, different colours could mean different things

Now it seems to me, if I recall correctly, that once upon a time, you yourself Ian was contemplating the merritt of placing a "SHOCK COLLAR" around the necks of students to "remind" them to flare

[Squeak 17]

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I'm not sure if anybody has done it, but an interesting project could be developing some kind of communication device for an AFF student under canopy who is hard of hearing or deaf and cannot use the standard radio that instructors use with their hearing students.

Sure we've had alternative ways of dealing with students like them and they have worked well... but, it's just something to think about.

Something like a hat with little hands on the sides.

Instructor presses a button to turn left and the little hand SLAPS the left side of deaf dudes face.
Press right slap right

Press both for Flare and slap both sides




Can we test it on you Billy

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Squeak 17]

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I immediately thought of CRW as a useful tool but he specified "freefall." Then thinking about it some more, I made the conclusion, as evidenced by the posts below, that walkie talkies in the helmet wouldn't be ideal compared to the current visual acuity and eye contact used with cues to move points. For me, it would change a formation from a team flying a formation to a bunch of people just flying slots.

Don't be so quick to dismiss a person with 108 jumps next time. I don't hold your E license against you.

Really, ok, I will pass on your wealth of knowledge to the guys in the World record crew jump and let them know that the air to air communications that they used were not at all useful and in fact it created a formation of slot flyers and not Team members..

I'm confident they will be in contact with you soon, for more of your learned wisdom

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?