[email protected] WL - To jump or not to jump...

[iFlyFast 0]

Hi, I just got myself a used rig with a Triathlon 220.
I have only 27 jumps, so I'm fresh out of school
My current exit weight is 234; so the WL would be 1.08.

I read on the forums that, for example, Brian Germain recommends one should not exceed 1.0 WL before 100 jumps.

I'm just wondering if it's insane to jump a Triathlon at 1.08 WL if you have only 27 jumps, or is it more like not crazy, but it will be harder to land standing?
It would be cool if I could get an answer comparing it to a Navigator 240



My experience: (chronologically)
14 jumps with a Manta 280; exit weight 250; WL 0.89
6 jumps with a Navigator 280; exit weight 250; WL 0.89
5 jumps with a Navigator 240; exit weight ~250; WL 1.04
2 jumps with a Navigator 240; exit weight 240; WL 1.0

My own opinion:
The Manta was not very good. Very steep descent rate. Hard to get the flare at the right time. Maybe because it was my first student canopy.

The Navigator 280 was awesome. Almost didn't need to brake to land standing even in no wind conditions. In turbulent winds that thing hardly moved. Very stable.

As for the Navigator 240 I got mixed results. You can definitely feel the turbulent winds. It took me 3 jumps to finally be able to land standing. I feel it's easy to land when there's a bit of wind, but on no wind conditions that thing flies really fast = crash landing.

I read lots of good things about the Triathlon, Specter and Storm. I'm just wondering if it will be a huge difference in descent rate, etc.
Not so much worried about the 1.08 WL, because I jumped at 1.04 and I don't think that a difference of 4% in WL would make that much difference (if the parachute was the same model at least).

[davelepka 4]

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As for the Navigator 240 I got mixed results. You can definitely feel the turbulent winds. It took me 3 jumps to finally be able to land standing. I feel it's easy to land when there's a bit of wind, but on no wind conditions that thing flies really fast = crash landing

Continue to jump the 240 until you are comfortable with it in all conditions, and no longer feel that it is 'really fast'. If you can get to a point where you don't feel that going even faster is unreasonable, then transition to the 220.

In terms of the WL, the 1.0 figure for the first 100 jumps is for the 'average' sized jumper at a sea level DZ. Provided your DZ is not a high elevation, the fact that you're bigger than 'average' will play a factor (for the record, I'm using 175/180 lbs as 'average').

For a variety of reasons, people bigger than average are able to load canopies on the higher side of the reccomendation, and people below average should be load canopies toward the lower end. With that in mind, 1.08 for a person your size is not unreasonable, provided that you follow a sensible course of downsizing and have the approval of local instructors who have seen you fly a canopy.

[pchapman 261]

As Dave says, the increased wing loading wouldn't be that big a deal, but make sure that landing your current canopy is no sweat in all normal conditions before downsizing.

You will find that the Triathlon isn't as awesome as the Navigator for the flare & landing. They are perfectly OK, but the flare timing will have to be more precise than the easy-to-land Navigator.

[freakflyer9999 1]

What size is the reserve and what is the reserve wingloading?

[iFlyFast 0]

Thank you all for helping.

I guess I'll try the 240 at least one more time to see how it feels.
Since now I have my own gear I was hoping to save a lot of money on rental gear, and therefore be able to jump more often. But first I need to be able to use it.

I was also thinking that the Triathlon would be even easier to land than a Navigator. Everyone says it has "lots of flare".
I though that using a 1/4 to 1/2 breaks on the last bit would level me enough to reduce downspeed, and then I would just use the rest of the "lots of flare" to finish it safely.

@freakflyer9999 the reserve is a pdr193, on my current weight that would be a WL of 1.21 coff coff

[scottd818 0]

you should look into takin brian germains canopy course. I did and its the best thing i have done since starting to skydive. I have 40 jumps and have been jumpin a sabre 2 210 with a WL @1.3 and have had nothing but stand up landing. I truely believe i wouldnt have been able to do this safely without what i learned in his course.

[davelepka 4]

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I guess I'll try the 240 at least one more time to see how it feels

You're going to need more than one more jump on the 240. Based on your description, you're far from 'comfortable', and you shouldn't downsize further until you are.

When going from a 280 to a 260 to a 240, you're always below a 1.0 Wl, and those downsizes are farily minor. Once you get up to 1.0, the downsizes become more significant and it will take more jump on each size to acclimate to the new canopy. Where you could get away with just a handful of jumps on a 260, you're going to need more than that on a 240 before downsizing again. Likewise, you'll need 50 to 100 jumps on the 220 before you're ready to come down to a 210 or 200.

Being comfortable is one thing, and it's a good thing, but you also need to be able to demonstrate a pattern of good landings/canopy control on the 240 before downsizing, and that means 10 or 15 'good' jumps on the 240. 'Good' meaning that you have a good landing, make good decisions under canopy, and feel good about your time under canopy.

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I though that using a 1/4 to 1/2 breaks on the last bit would level me enough to reduce downspeed, and then I would just use the rest of the "lots of flare" to finish it safely.

This line of thinking is completely wrong, and exactly why you need to spend more time on the 240 before downsizing.

The truth of the matter is that airspeed equals lift, and killing your airspeed by flying your approach in partial brakes will actually give you less flare power, not more. You want to let the canopy fly at full flight, and start your flare from there to give you the most airspeed to convert to lift.

It's a big mistake to 'think up' your own conclusions about almost anything in skydiving because the price for being wrong is too high. Don't deviate from your training without first running your ideas past an instructor or senior jumper.

[Hellis 0]

Maybe he is thinking of pitching the canopy with 1/4 to 1/2 brakes?
Not flying the pattern with brakes

[Remster 24]

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you should look into takin brian germains canopy course. I did and its the best thing i have done since starting to skydive. I have 40 jumps and have been jumpin a sabre 2 210 with a WL @1.3 and have had nothing but stand up landing. I truely believe i wouldnt have been able to do this safely without what i learned in his course.

So you take the guy's canopy control course, and you completely dismiss his recommendations for wing load. Nice.

Remster

[davelepka 4]

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Maybe he is thinking of pitching the canopy with 1/4 to 1/2 brakes?
Not flying the pattern with brakes

Maybe he did mean that, but by the way he said, 'I was thinking of...', as opposed to saying, 'I was planning to do xyz like I was trained and have done on my previous jumps...' it shows that his intended course of action is not what he had been taught or practiced on his previous jumps and my advice to consult an instructor stands.

[iFlyFast 0]

Again thanks for the input.

I did mean to say "around say two or three body heights I would go 1/4 or 1/2 breaks to make it slower/easier to make the final flare" - which is what I've been training and trying to do. I do think it works better than waiting for the one body height + single movement flare. That's a good way of flaring too low and crashing. And don't get me wrong. I do think that flaring too low is preferable to flaring too high.

Actually I don't want to downsize. I just want to use my gear as soon as I can, so I can save money on rentals (they cost as much as one jump), and therefore I could jump more, and subsequently get more experience.

Unlike other skydivers, for me the only good reason I see for downsizing is to have a smaller container. Right now I expect to use this rig for at least 200 jumps. So I'm definitely NOT in a rush to downsize.

As for the Germain course, given the jump to 1.3 WL it almost sounds like the guy will teach you to go radical. Which does not seem like his style. He appears to be very conservative (in a non political way). But if you were able to make that progress that is awesome - although not my objective.

[scottd818 0]

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you should look into takin brian germains canopy course. I did and its the best thing i have done since starting to skydive. I have 40 jumps and have been jumpin a sabre 2 210 with a WL @1.3 and have had nothing but stand up landing. I truely believe i wouldnt have been able to do this safely without what i learned in his course.

So you take the guy's canopy control course, and you completely dismiss his recommendations for wing load. Nice.

Not at all. In fact i had a discussion with him before down sizing and only did it with his recommendation. so quite the opposite of what your assuming!

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As for the Germain course, given the jump to 1.3 WL it almost sounds like the guy will teach you to go radical. Which does not seem like his style. He appears to be very conservative (in a non political way). But if you were able to make that progress that is awesome - although not my objective.

By no means does he teach you to go radical. He teachs you to be safe and not fly outside your ability. Its gonna vary with each individual. All i was saying that i highly recommend his course. And that it will make u a better pilot. And thats it.

[davelepka 4]

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I did mean to say "around say three or four body heights I would go 1/4 or 1/2 breaks to make it slower/easier to make the final flare.

Whatever you meant to say, consult your instructors before deviating from what you were taught. You might be right, but you might also be wrong and you're better off finding that out verbally from an instructor than physically from an impact with the ground.

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Actually I don't want to downsize. I just want to use my gear as soon as I can

Using your own gear is downsizing from where you are now. The cost of a jump and your canopy control skills are not related. Downsize too fast, and you'll gind yourself laid up with a borken leg or twisted ankle, both of which will cost much more than gear rental and both of which will have you making no jumps what-so-ever during the six weeks to six months of recovery time.

[iFlyFast 0]

Well, davelepka gives me some good advice.
Although I want to save some money to be able to jump more, I want to do it safely.
Anyway, 10 jumps or so is not that much of a wait.

I'll have a talk with one of the instructors at my current DZ, and after a few jumps, if I feel confident and I get his blessing, I'll go for a jump trial with my new gear.

I think the hardest thing is to make that first jump.

[devildog 0]

I jumped at about a .97 from graduating AFF to my A license (#26). From then on I jumped my rig which had a Tri 190 (which is what I'm using now) which puts my W/L @ 1.08. I could tell the difference for certain soon as I jumped it, and for a long time I'd jump in conservative winds until I was comfortable in cross and down wind landings should the need arise (and the needs has arisen for me at least)

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[DSE 3]

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I have 40 jumps and have been jumpin a sabre 2 210 with a WL @1.3

..,

Just so I'm clear; you're saying Brian recommended you downsize to a 1:1.3 wingloading at 40 jumps?

[devildog 0]

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I have 40 jumps and have been jumpin a sabre 2 210 with a WL @1.3

..,

Just so I'm clear; you're saying Brian recommended you downsize to a 1:1.3 wingloading at 40 jumps?

It is less than his reserve...
"Smart 190 ft² (1.42 lbs/ft²)"

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[faulk04 0]

well I mean he has stood up all his landings... :) Must count for something hehe

[iFlyFast 0]

Well, I talked to the instructors at my DZ, and they said it would be ok to try the canopy in low wind conditions (
They told me, since the canopy is a 7 cell, its forward speed is lower and its descent rate is steeper. hum... don't know if that's good.

And so I jumped, all happy about trying my new rig, but considerably scared (my mouth was completely dry).
I pulled around 4500ft, and don't know if it was my fault - I think I was stable when I pulled, but that thing snapped around 180º. So much for the on heading openings the 7 cells are known for. Just kidding since one jump is just one jump.

Apart from that, as soon as I got straight under the canopy, that thing started diving left. Quickly, I pulled my brakes and leveled the thing. humm.. only good stuff for a guy already scared hehe.

Turned left and right to see how the canopy feels.
I can say it definitely turns and dives much faster than the Navigator, and it's way more sensitive to quick toggle input.
Another thing is, the sweet spot is harder to get a feel for. I was expecting to feel a step in the brake lines tension, but actually the line tension is very smooth all the way to the stall point. I guess I need a few more jumps to get a better feeling for it.

Another thing that I used to think about 7 cells was that they were great in turbulent winds.
Well the wind was low but a bit turbulent, and all I can say is that it's at least not more stable than the Navigator 240.
It felt to me as very sensitive to the wind changes, as it moved around left and right very quickly in turbulent wind. Of course this might be related to what is my perception of quick. I kind of compare it to the Navigator 280, which moves through the turbulent wind like a mercedes speeding on a highway - stable like a rock.

Anyway, down to my thing I was most scared about. The landing. This time I planed and re-planed my landing pattern. Tried to follow it the best I could, but at the same time adapting my base leg to correct my path as necessary. I tried to make the final approach by the book, searching for the point in the horizon that does not rise or fall. But in the end I could not find it hehe.

I feared the touchdown would be very hard, since the canopy supposedly has a steeper descent rate. But I didn't feel anything. It does seem to have a lower forward speed though.
The flaring was actually very easy. I had a much better/easier landing than with the Navigator. Maybe because of the lower forward speed.

I think I was scared for the wrong reasons. The Triathlon 220 is definitely snappier than the Navigator 240, and dives more when turning. I think I must avoid quick toggle input at low altitude - somewhat true for all canopies though. Finally, when compared with the navigator, the flaring is no harder. Actually it's probably easier.

In conclusion, the advices that I got on the forum are not to be ignored. However, the first jump fear is gone, and I'm felling much more confident now.
I do think that if something unexpected occurs, my reaction might bring more serious consequences under this canopy. But under normal circumstances, this canopy is no harder to fly and land than the other canopies I tried.

All in all great stuff. Can't wait to jump again.

[megamalfunction 1]

What year is your canopy? If its an older Triathlon, you should send it in to Aerodyne to have the line mod done. The line mod will add a lot of flare!

[iFlyFast 0]

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What year is your canopy? If its an older Triathlon, you should send it in to Aerodyne to have the line mod done. The line mod will add a lot of flare!

It's from 98 ver 2.07. You're talking about the 5.0 mod? But how much $$$ would that be?

[popsjumper 2]

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They told me, since the canopy is a 7 cell, its forward speed is lower and its descent rate is steeper. hum...

Steeper than what? Steeper than the Nav?

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but that thing snapped around 180º....as soon as I got straight under the canopy, that thing started diving left.

Talk to your packer. Tri's don't do that normally.
Talk to your rigger about line trim.

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I guess I need a few more jumps to get a better feeling for it.

Just like any new/different canopy you will fly.

Congrats!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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What year is your canopy? If its an older Triathlon, you should send it in to Aerodyne to have the line mod done. The line mod will add a lot of flare!

It's from 98 ver 2.07. You're talking about the 5.0 mod? But how much $$$ would that be?

It's the 4.0 mod. It does improve flare power somewhat. Not enough for the expense, IMO.
Complete line set: $225
Steering lines only $65

I have two Tri's.
-190 with original line config
-175 with the 4.0

You can tell if you have the older version Tri or one with the 4.0 mod by looking at your brake line connection points on the tail. If you have a connection point on the very outside corner of the tail, you have the original. The 4.0 mod basically moves all the break line connection points one step towards the center of the canopy. Ergo, no connection point on the corner of the tail.

Be aware....if you purchase a line set from Aerodyne, you will get one that is cut for the 4.0 mod. There will be no indication as such and no instructions in the line set package. I've talked to them 3 times about putting that info in the line set package and on their very cumbersome web page but....no go as yet.

Talking with a rep, he said the mod was mandatory. All Tri's should have the 4.0.....which is BS at it's best.

IF you mount that 4.0 brake line set in the old configuration, be prepared to do good, no I mean GREAT, PLF's.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[iFlyFast 0]

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They told me, since the canopy is a 7 cell, its forward speed is lower and its descent rate is steeper. hum...

Steeper than what? Steeper than the Nav?

Steeper than a 9 cell.

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but that thing snapped around 180º....as soon as I got straight under the canopy, that thing started diving left.

Talk to your packer. Tri's don't do that normally.
Talk to your rigger about line trim.

Well, I usually pack my own canopy. Been doing it since my second AFF jump. But this time I payed for it so I though might as well jump it.
Actually, although I know any packer has way more experience than me, I do know that sometimes they do pack very carefree just to get it done. But I guess that's more like during a boogie. Nevertheless I suppose it was my position when pulling or something like that. Again one jump is no example.
Side note: Actually, I "learned how to pack" from PD Nick Grillet's youtube videos - awesome stuff - this was way before my aff/packing course. Pilot chute packing from Brian Germain - again awesome stuff.

As for the line trim, yep, they did say the lines (microline - spectra) were a bit out of trim. But that they would be usable for about another 200 jumps before needing a relining. Don't know how conservative that prediction is.

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It's the 4.0 mod. It does improve flare power somewhat. Not enough for the expense, IMO.
Complete line set: $225
Steering lines only $65

So that's the price with the mod or just the lineset? If it's just the lineset, then we have to add the mod + relining + shipping... probably something like $500... Humm... Too early for that.
I guess I could do it when the relining is needed tough. Next jump I'll try to check if the canopy has the 4.0 mod.

Thanks for the info.

[popsjumper 2]

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Steeper than a 9 cell.

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I'm sure just forgot to add..."of similar size and wing loading"

I'm not sure I agree with that as a general rule but it's close enough for goobermint work.

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It's the 4.0 mod. It does improve flare power somewhat. Not enough for the expense, IMO.
Complete line set: $225
Steering lines only $65

So that's the price with the mod or just the lineset? If it's just the lineset, then we have to add the mod + relining + shipping... probably something like $500... Humm... Too early for that.

The prices I quoted are from Aerodyne and they are line set(s) only. Any inspection, modifications, assembly and shipping would, yes, be extra.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239