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janz

cutting corners

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It's lucky we all live in an ideal world.

I have seen jumpers struggle to undo their seatbelts for an exit on a normal jump run, having forgotten to do so earlier. I have also been in an aircraft emergency (not requiring an emergency bail-out) and seen the lack of communication that occurred.

Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large numbers, especially when you add panic to the mix.

OK here's another reason to undo your seatbelt when everyone else does. What of the door is open because everyone is assumed to be unbelted (yes I know you should confirm - see earlier remark about an ideal world) and your PC gets away from you and out the door? That's going to leave a mark.

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I have also been in an aircraft emergency (not requiring an emergency bail-out) and seen the lack of communication that occurred.

Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large numbers, especially when you add panic to the mix.



This is the second time in as many days that someone had used the stupidity of other jumpers as a reason to not be logical themselves.

If everyone is that stupid, then it's up to you to do better, and have a plan. Like I suggested, pay attention, and if you a problem is occuring, cut through the stupidity with your common sense. Tell those idiots to remain seated, and prepare for an exit command from the pilot. If there's too much chatter, ask for people to quiet down so you can hear the pilot.

The situatuion will add panic to the mix. You can remove some of it by taking control of the situation. If people have instructions and someone who appears to be in charge, there's going to be a little less panic. Keep in mind that part of taking charge is assesing the situation, and if another, more qualifed, jumper is taking the lead, your best contribution might be to let that happen and asist that 'leader' in any way you can.

I know we don't live in an 'ideal world'. Is that odd for me to suggest you trying to interject some order and logic into what could easliy become disorderly and chaotic?

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>I have seen jumpers struggle to undo their seatbelts for an exit on a normal jump run,
>having forgotten to do so earlier.

I've seen them forget their seatbelts as well. They try to stand up, can't, then take off their seatbelt and stand up. This typically happens nearer the front of the airplane, because the first group out has already been moving around to get ready for exit.

However, I have never seen an exit significantly delayed because someone couldn't get their seatbelt off. It adds all of about one second to the whole process. Makes people embarrassed more than anything else.

>What of the door is open because everyone is assumed to be unbelted (yes I know
>you should confirm - see earlier remark about an ideal world) and your PC gets away
>from you and out the door? That's going to leave a mark.

Yep. Which is why you don't open the door until seatbelts come off.

At most DZ's, the rule is helmet secured and seatbelt on until X feet (1000, 1500.) Then seatbelts come off. Then the door is opened. Seems to work OK.

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So don't worry. You'll have time to take your seatbelt off.



Likewise, you'll also have time to put it back on while you're gently gliding down at a 1000ft/min.

Now if the plane goes into a violent spin (due to say a stall caused by CofG and weight shift issues, slow flight configuration, etc), the chances are the only people getting out are the ones that get flung out. The rest will probably be plastered to the inside of the fuselage unable to do much of anything. A seat belt will almost certainly reduce your chances of being flung which depending on your altitude may or may not be a good thing.

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I am very conservative and keep my hat on, and won't unbuckle my belt before 500m (~1500 ft)



What if there is an emergency at say 1200ft and you're the one holding everyone up from exiting?



Rule here: If there are problems with the plane, land with it if this occurs <500m. If >500m listen to what the captain is telling you. Tandems are to be hooked up at 500m (upper hooks) coz emergency exit window (get out and deploy reserve) is >500m to ~1200m.
Roughly said, depends on exact situation.
Pilots, especially those with a glider plane background will tell you that a plane has a better glide ratio if it's loaded heavier so the pilot will most likely not tell you to bail the f*** out as fast as possible.
Again, roughly said, depends on exact situation.

And, unbuckling won't take much more than a second, if at all :P
The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

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>Likewise, you'll also have time to put it back on while you're gently gliding
>down at a 1000ft/min.

That's a LOT harder. On an Otter most of the time taken to load up is time taken to get people into the right positions so their seatbelts will work. And of course since DZ's try to squeeze as many people as possible into the airplane there's not a lot of extra room. This in turn leads to people spreading out, sitting on the floor etc once you take your belt off.

At Perris there's an unofficial system where you sit down and push up tight against the person in front of you. He hands you your belt. You reach down aft of you, grab both belts, connect one and hand the belt to the next person to sit down. This is next to impossible once everyone is sitting down, and the times we've had to land with the plane it's taken a good 30 seconds for people to stand up, move back to their original positions, find the belts and put them back on.

In planes with straddle benches it's sometimes even harder because the belts drop into the gap next to the bench, and someone's leg is now in the way. You have to get them to lift their leg, reach below and behind you and get the belt.

Same problem with sitting on the floor but it's a little easier to reach back for the belts.

>A seat belt will almost certainly reduce your chances of being flung which
>depending on your altitude may or may not be a good thing.

That's probably true - but the same argument was used for car seat belts (i.e. "I want to be thrown clear of the wreck.") The flipside of that argument is that if you are unsecured, and (for example) the Skyvan stalls and everyone rolls into the back onto the door, you have both made the stall unrecoverable AND blocked the only exit.

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It obviously depends on the aircraft. If you have benches and lap belts, it is much harder to get hooked up than unhooked. In a plane with no benches and tethers bolted to the side of the fuzz, I think it can be harder to get unhooked if you attach them as recommended (under the main lift web of your rig and round to clip the carabiner back onto the belt) although there isn't much in it.

The other downside to tethers is they are often 2 or 3ft long which means a 6ft guy can slide around over an almost a 9ft radius. That's most of the plane, probably including the exit. So as a restraint, they only really keep all the bodies in the same general area as the wreckage. But there isn't much of an option without fitting seats.

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>(under the main lift web of your rig and round to clip the carabiner back onto the belt)

Interesting system. I've seen several carabiner based systems proposed (i.e. one in each hip junction) but never seen one used in the US since the belts have to be FAA-approved, and carabiners aren't.

>The other downside to tethers is they are often 2 or 3ft long which means a 6ft guy
>can slide around over an almost a 9ft radius.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of systems that have so much slack that they are almost useless.

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The other downside to tethers is they are often 2 or 3ft long which means a 6ft guy can slide around over an almost a 9ft radius.



That's only true if he is tethered by the top of his head or his feet!



And if he doesn't have arms.

Mark

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This has developed in to an interesting and thought provoking thread - keep it coming.

Personal experience is 2 precautionary bailouts but from safe altitudes and no dramas. Many many times have I been squashed up so tight on full loads that I have found it difficult to unbuckle under normal conditions never mind a rapid egress.

Curious about AFF students (having not done AFF myself). What is the brief for them?

Not much discussion so far about the JM role although it has been covered implicitly. There are lots of JMs out there with relatively low jump numbers and the fact that they are JM means they are probably the most experienced on the load - could prove interesting.

I think this thread still have life in it - I hope others agree.


Use your wings Johnny....

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What do you do when you go to a dropzone and feel too many corners are being cut?



Ignore it as long as other DZs are inconveniently far away and/or lack sufficient lift capacity.

A DZO who puts too many Gs on the airframe and bends the wing skins leading to inspection covers that no longer lie flush and does negligent things leading to an upside down King Air will probably die before you do.

The King Air incident came from a plan to reduce turn-around times by putting out the tandems first but still loading them in the usual way without thinking about CG. Too many people got behind the door, he ran out of elevator travel, airspeed dropped below VMC (the Minimum Controllable airspeed) with the critical engine throttled back to ease the tandem masters' exits, and things got exciting.

The DZO in question did die before me. Aerobatics below 500' after you've neglected to check your fuel load don't always go well.

More than a few of us were thankful he only took one person with him.

I leave how much or little one value their own life (do you have family to take care of?) as a personal choice for the reader.

Personally if I had to do it over again I would have asked for a free jump ticket because the rest of my group bailed out without me (If the plane has returned to level flight you do NOT need to get out) and the solo wasn't nearly as fun as my jump should have been.

Some people made that load their last at the DZ in question.

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There were definitely no seat belts in the Pilatus Porter I jumped from in Greece.

To be honest though I don't think I missed 'em... except for that whole part about taking off. I'd be lying if I said I didn't breath easy every time we got up over a thousand feet. At least then you can choose to land under a reserve instead of a crash landing.



Really? You might want to adjust your 'rest easy' altitude up a few hundred feet. How long do you think it will take to get the door open and for you to actaully leave the plane? If the engine quits, you're going to start losing altitude NOW, so every second that goes by, your 1000ft gets lower and lower.

On top of that, Porters are somtimes loaded 'tight', which makes it that much harder for everyone to get out, especialy from a seated position. If one person in between you and the door has trouble getting up, or getting out, you're going to be well below 1000ft before you get anywhere near the door.



you dont need to be the fastest and most competent person; just the first one out!
gravity brings me down.........

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Porters are somtimes loaded 'tight', which makes it that much harder for everyone to get out, especialy from a seated position.



Not that hard, when I toss your pilot chute out the door and hang on to your leg straps....:P
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Curious about AFF students (having not done AFF myself). What is the brief for them?



There was a bail out on my 6th AFF jump.There was 2 other AFF students on the plane. All at the same level. So three students and three instructors. I also had outside camera.

At ~5000 feet, the governer (?) on the plane went. There was a big jerk and a loud noise. The pilot was obviously doing something important but eventually levelled the plane off, turned around and told everyone to bail.

All seat belts were off, obviously, and everyone proceeded to get out. I started to make my way to the door (I was to be first student out) but my instructor grabbed me back and told me to put on my helmet and seatbelt and get into the brace position. He did the same. The other instructors did so too.

What scared me most was the look on his face, I knew he had never experienced this before and that HE wanted to bail. But he calmly instructed me to do what I needed to do. Everyone before us got out, including my cameraman.

The plane landed without incident and the issue was repaired in minutes. It clearly wasn't that serious. We were back on the plane again immediately.

The interesting thing was that at 5k, half the load got out on their reserves :)

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Porters are somtimes loaded 'tight', which makes it that much harder for everyone to get out, especialy from a seated position.



Not that hard, when I toss your pilot chute out the door and hang on to your leg straps....:P


:D:D:D
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you're killin' me.
:D:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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The interesting thing was that at 5k, half the load got out on their reserves :)


haha that made me laugh. If thats true then thats incredibly retarded behavior.



........................................................................

That sort of behaviour guarrantees full employment for the local rigger!
Hah!
Hah!

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