Is there a first cut-away info poll?

[iFlyFast 0]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if there's was a poll-like discussion of first cut-aways?
I'm interested in information like what canopy the person was flying, WL, reason for the chop and number of jumps at the time of the chop?

I'm also curious to know if certain malfunctions are highly connected to certain canopies types.
Or to be more precise, if those spinning malfunctions, with line twists, are more common on heavily loaded high performance canopies, or are they just as likely on a 7-cell canopy? Let's consider equal WL.

if you are reading this please consider contributing your own experience.

Thanks in advance.

[piisfish 135]

my 1st cutaway was on a Crossfire2 119 loaded approx 1.6 lbs/sqft
I had around 650 jumps
Linetwists, spinning pretty severely.
Main cause for the opening leading to the linetwists : OLD ragged pilot chute.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[quade 3]

I think you're going to find that when higher performance, 9-cell elliptical canopies have line twists, they result in a higher number of cutaways. This is because they tend to spin up a bit faster and can get into unrecoverable modes quickers. Whereas, on a square, 7-cell, it might have the same occurrence of line twists, but it might not be as dire a situation as frequently and the result is more people would have enough time to clear the line twists rather than be forced to cut them away.

I've made over 3,000 jumps with 99% of them on a 7-cell Spectre without a single cutaway. Sure, I got lucky, but I'm 100% convinced that record is due in large part to that canopy as opposed to a higher performance 9-cell elliptical.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Joellercoaster 6]

This.

I think the things you're asking about are kind of separate issues too. Most people jump the same kind of canopy most of the time once they settle in, so their first mal is quite likely to be on that kind of canopy.

If it's information about wing loads and canopy types that you really want, it's the repeat choppers you should be asking

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if there's was a poll-like discussion of first cut-aways?
I'm interested in information like what canopy the person was flying, WL, reason for the chop and number of jumps at the time of the chop?

I'm also curious to know if certain malfunctions are highly connected to certain canopies types.
Or to be more precise, if those spinning malfunctions, with line twists, are more common on heavily loaded high performance canopies, or are they just as likely on a 7-cell canopy? Let's consider equal WL.

if you are reading this please consider contributing your own experience.

Thanks in advance.

None of the things you're asking about have anything to do with "first cut-aways". Such things can happen on any jump, and on any cut-away. And a first cut-away might not happen for 1,000 jumps or more. So, you would be better served by just ignoring the word "first" in this endeavor.

[iFlyFast 0]

Hi,
thanks for the answers so far. I appreciate it. As JohnRich writes, "first" might not make sense here.
But I was kind of curious to know if there was any influence of experience involved in the cut-aways.

Like if the chop was your fault, was the mistake related to lack of experience? For example, packing mistake?

The objective is to know what to look for in order to avoid whatever errors that might lead to a malfunction.
That's why I think it would be nice to have a kind of database with this info.
I'm sure most of it is incorporated into the "good practices" taught during ground school, or on the USPA SIM.

Since I'm flying a 7-cell (Triathlon), I also feel better to know that it's less likely to have certain types of malfunctions flying this type of canopy.
If there was a "like" functionality in this forum I would like that post hehe

Of course different people might have different experiences, and that why it's nice to read a few before jumping into conclusions.

[Joellercoaster 6]

OK.

I think mine (at about 800 jumps) was a combination of poor gear maintenance and maybe sloppy packing. Out of trim canopy having some funky openings already but I kept on putting it off.

My main isn't tiny or an agressive shape particularly, but it was a high enough wing load that twists that bad were not going to be recoverable in the time I had.

All of these things were, arguably, things that don't happen to brand-new jumpers.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[Rstanley0312 0]

169 crossfire 2 loaded at a 1.5. All my fault. Tracking away from a 10 way saw someone way too close to me... corrected course but I was looking at my distance from that person when I pitched so I was in a turn... dumb. Line twist that took me for a spinning ride. That is when I learned how great of a canopy my PDR 176 is! Not just bc it opened great but it was great to fly too!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[NWFlyer 2]

I'll try to hit the experience element a little bit.

Malfunctions due to packing errors - I don't think we'll ever have data on this, but it may be more likely that the more experienced you get, the "lazier" you get about your pack jobs. Newer jumpers tend to be very meticulous (and slow) about their packing. While they may have an error due to lack of knowledge, chances are lower that they'll have an error because they rushed and forgot a step. The most important thing you can do to mitigate this risk is to have a routine, follow it every time, and build in double- and triple-checks where possible (for example, you can cock your pilot chute when you first lay the rig down, check it again after you set the rig down after flaking it, and a third time when you're about to put the pilot chute in the pouch.)

Cutaways due to not knowing how to "fix" a malfunction - this is a tricky one to bring up, because people have tried to "fix" a slow malfunction all the way into the ground. So a newer jumper being "quick on the trigger" isn't necessarily a bad thing altogether. That said, with more experience you may be able to more quickly assess and address a fixable lower speed malfunction. The double-edged sword of that is that you may keep trying past a safe cutaway altitude.

Malfunctions more attributable to canopy type - As others have already mentioned, certain canopy types (and sizes/wingloadings) can be more prone to malfunctions. They're much more sensitive to body position on deployment and they're much less tolerant of packing errors. It's one of the reasons (there are many others) that most skydivers with an ounce of sense will warn newer jumpers away from higher-performance/heavily loaded canopies. It takes time to really dial in consistency both in packing and in body position on deployment, and when shit goes bad on a higher-performance/heavily-loaded canopy, it goes bad quickly.

Miscellaneous experience-related causes: As you gain more experience, you're more likely to try disciplines that add complexity and may add contributing variables to a malfunction. For example (there's many others, here's a couple): At freefly speeds, a premature opening malfunction is generally more likely to cause damage to a canopy that would necessitate a cutaway. Flying a wingsuit changes both your deployment position and your deployment dynamics.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[drop-bear 0]

My first chop was caused by a few small mistakes adding up, all of them mainly due to inexperience, so hopefully it's relevant to this thread. Rented gear, Spectre 210 (WL 1.07), Mirage G4, PDR (not sure if it was a 193 or 218). 97th jump, 5th of the day. 11-way tracking dive. Altitrack deployment altitude says 2240, so pins out around 2700.

Had been having really poor heading performance on openings that day, so was steering the snivel straight, when the slider grommet hit my hand really hard (first mistake, had grabbed risers a little too high). As a reflex reaction pulled my hand away from the riser quickly (second mistake). Think this hand movement is probably what caused the unstowing of the excess control line. Grabbed the toggles and went to unstow them, but ended up with one unstowed, and the other knotted up. That was the third mistake, i remember the toggle grab feeling a little odd (wasn't wearing gloves), so should have paused and looked.

Tried to figure out how to undo it for a while, but knot was tight, and not easy to tell how to get it undone (no hook knife on this rig either). Was not going to attempt to land with one toggle and one riser (yeh, yeh big pussy :), so chopped at 1830. Freefall felt a lot longer than i expected, but really it was only 3 seconds and about 180 feet. Had the RSL connected, and think it must have beat me to the silver, though reckon it was close. Followed main and free bag as best as i could, but wind separated them. Very soft landing sinking it in, on DZ property, but waaay off in the sticks. Got the main, but lost the free bag and pilot chute.

[iFlyFast 0]

Wow, nice one. (if I may say so)
I wish there was some video of that. Unfortunately, judging by your number of jumps you probably were not allowed to jump with camera.

This is actually a very similar configuration to what I'm jumping, specially the wing loading.
Now I'm trying to loose some weight, but I wonder if it'll work hehe

When you got the canopy back, were you able to understand what kind of knot it was, and how it got there?

NWFlyer wrote a pretty nice post. Yeah, I tend to pack very slowly. Mainly because I try to make no mistakes. Since I'm afraid that I wont be able to detect them anyway, I just look at it for hours to make sure that everything looks in place. Last time it was a bit ridiculous. I took the time of two or three loads to finish packing. I had the canopy in the bag, but it had a strange shape when inserted into the container. I ended up unpacking and restarting all over. 2nd time around was a bit better, but it still felt a bit out of shape, so I spanked it a bit. Poor thing.

Well, one possible malfunction is a pilot chute in tow, with a d-bag stuck in the container. The main might not cut loose in this case. If lucky, one might be able to to release it. But being a high-speed malfunction it's not for everyone to fix. On top of everything the pilot chute might even get tangled in the reserve. Nevertheless, I think that's a malfunction related to a PC not matching the size of the container, or even a damaged PC.

aahhh, I can only imagine the adrenaline rush it must be.

[IrishDave 0]

My first cutaway was on jump 73.
I was (and still am) a baby skydiver.

It was a brand new 170 7 cell Spectre. Had about 20 jumps on it. I still jump it.

It was loaded at 1.0

It was my fault.

I have outside video of it.

I didn't know what it was at the time.
I looked up after deployment, collapsed my slider and unstowed my breaks. Before I could perform a canopy control check, I went into a slow spin getting faster. Couldn't understand it. Let go of breaks completely and it continued to spin. Looked up and couldn't see anything wrong with the canopy from the pictures they show you during AFF. Pumping the breaks made it worse.

I actually remember saying, out loud, the wise words of my AFF instructor: If there is a problem, ask yourself "Can I land this canopy?". The canopy was still spinning and I had no idea what was happening so the answer was NO.

I cut away.

My main landed on the peas :)

After examining the canopy, nobody, including the rigger could see any problem with it. I actually felt at one point that nobody believed me.


I didn't find out what the problem was until about 100 jumps later when it happened again. This time it was a little more obvious what the problem was. Turns out, I got tension knots in one of my break lines just below the guide ring. The second time it happened, I stupidly spend to much time trying to fix it that the option to cut it away was lost quickly. I had to land it. Luckily, I knew what the problem was and all I needed to do was a breaked approach and land pretty much in breaks with zero flare. Ground was soft and wet and the PLF meant I was on the next load.

Lesson: Always untwist your break lines after every 2-3 jumps. It hasn't happened since.
Lesson 2: Even though it was just a simple tension knot, I couldn't diagnose the problem (albeit a simple one) so I chopped. Despite some jeering, I know I made the right decision. I cut away a canopy that I couldn't (at the time) land.


For the record, it appears that the first cutaway, the tension knots "vanished" when the tension was released during the cutaway. Hence the phantom symptoms. Also, the AFF class I took, I WAS shown a tension knot, it was just much further up than where I had mine.

[crotalus01 0]

First was jump 52 on a Sabre 190 on the sunset load. On opening I had 4 complete linetwists in the center of the lines with the slider stuck above the twists. Canopy was flying perfectly straight, but directly away from the DZ on an already long spot (I had a 12 way exit in front of me and they took a while to set up). I tried to kick them out, but every time I would get about halfway around and get snapped right back to where I started. About 2800' I decided to chop it as I was losing light quickly and wanted at least a chance to make it back to the DZ under reserve. Put one hand on each handle (no RSL), arched and pulled right then pulled left, and barely made the edge of the DZ :)

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[iFlyFast 0]

Cool stuff guys. BTW IrishDave do you have the video of this on youtube or the likes? And could you post the video link? People like to see other people mess up and survive.

[IrishDave 0]

https://vimeo.com/23252496

From 2:13 you can see me at the top of the screen tot he left a little spinning.

Obviously it wasn't MY footage :)

FTR, it was VERY obvious that the RSL beat me to my cutaway. I could feel it.

[iFlyFast 0]

ah it's a petty we can't see it very well.

[lopullterri 0]

My first malfunction from which I had to cut away was when I bought a Stiletto. My husband was angry with me. Stated that I had no business buying it with less than than 400 jumps...he stated that it was going to spin up on me and that they were known for it (our DZO agreed with him), so when we went to a Boogie he packed me line twists. (Now he had done this once before to prove a point. We were both jumping Triathalon 160's and we had a discussion on the way to Mardi Gras Boogie. He said that if I had line twists I could kick out but if he had them he might have to cut away. On the way to altitude he got this strange look on his face and said, "Let's switch rigs". I said "What?" He said, "I packed you line twists". Well being the gung ho adrenaline freak that I was, I said no. I'll take them. So there I was, kicking out of multiple line twists over a swamp. I landed just fine. At the time, I laughed about it.
About less than 2 years later came the Stiletto. When that thing opened it was spinning right out of the bag. I was on my back in seconds and spinning hard. Cut away, flipped over to my belly (I was REALLY low) and opened my reserve. I had an 18 second reserve ride. My free bag was in sight when I landed. When I walked into the hanger he had that same look on his face and said, very calmly, "Did your cypres fire?" (Loop was intact, Cypres had fired. It fired after I pulled). My first and only reserve ride and I have jumped a Vengeance and a Xaos, but I did not let him pack them unless I was watching. Gotta say...it WAS a rush...but it was also an eye opener.

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[ShcShc11 0]

Jump #18. couldn't get the line twists undone.
landed in a tree too to make things worse LOL.

2 x 24 beers I guess! hahaha


Cheers!
Shc

[Croc 0]

Are you still married to him?

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[likestojump 3]

WS jump with a Cobalt150 loaded at ~~ 1.4
opened up into pretty severe line twists, caused due to uneven shoulder on deployment (you can see risers being uneven).

I couldn't kick out, and the thing had me on my back picking up speed.

Had an identical cutaway 3 weeks ago on a Spectre, and for the exact same reason :)

[jinlee 0]

My 1st cutaway was self-induced. Although this is not my video of "my" cutaway it was exactly like this. Altitude was nearly the same, maybe 200' higher but no more.

https://vimeo.com/45764588

[lopullterri 0]

In the middle of a nasty divorce right now. he also did it to a customer / friend, once. Then he charged her for her reserve repack. I was furious. He stated that, "I only put one complete twist in. She should have been able to kick out" (well she couldn't. She was short and heavy and I believe that this was why she had difficulty). so...hell no. I am done with him. (I have witnesses to it too because I reamed him about that one all the way home that night).

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[Croc 0]

Yikes! Best of luck to you, and I hope he gets the appropriate therapy, or maybe, jail time.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[iFlyFast 0]

Well, I'll be sure to keep away from husbands with a line-twist fetish. Apparently WL of 1.4 are just as dangerous.

[lopullterri 0]

Mwaa haa haa ha...Now THAT made me laugh. Favorite conversations from after someone had a cutaway:

"There are no bad canopies...just bad packers"

"Are you sure you needed to cut that away?" (Never question a decision to cut away. I know I don't want to be the reason that anyone would ever hesitate.)

"It was probably your body position".

"Someone had a reserve ride. Who is it? Its blue" I answered, "There are two blue reserves on that load. He just hooked turned his landing...it's got to be Todd." (As I watched from a distance).

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~